first scratch build... where to start??

[Jake]

Hey folks!
I am interested in building a rocket from scratch, but i really don't know where to start.
I've built 6 Estes rocket kits, the hardest being the mean machine. I've built one from scratch, but it really isn't even worth mentioning. It consisted of two spare tubes, a nose cone and three balsa fins from an old crashed rocket. It didn't have a proper engine mount, just a piece of tube which fit the motor VERY tightly (had to use pliers to get it out some times). I measured it out so that the fins where evenly spaced, but I had no idea about balance or anything like that.
All I really want to accomplish for starters is a simple, small rocket which can hold an A-C motor.
So my question for you all is, where would you suggest I start to prepare myself to tackle something like this?
I appreciate any help in advance
Jake

 

[JP Morgan]

Hobbylinc web site I suppose. They carry most of the materials you'll need for scratch building.
https://www.hobbylinc.com/model_rockets

Then I would download OPENROCKET, it's FREE! You've got to have JAVA to run it.
Open Rocket is great for designing rockets. I'm still learning how to use it myself.

https://openrocket.sourceforge.net/

I use Epoxy from AIRCRAFTSPRUCE .com
I don't like 15minute or 30 minute.
Check out the SCALE section and look for my Bull Pup thread, the Epoxy is in there on the first page or 2...

Regards,

JP

 

[T-Rex]

I think the best place to start is ask yourself what you want to build. What kind of rocket do you like? What gives you the thrill? Then, as JP already mentioned, download Open Rocket and have fun.

I found with my first scrath build, I down loaded a Rocksim file for an oop classic rocket that I wanted to resurect (EAC Viper) and 2x up sized it. Some folks wouldn't call that a scratch build, but it gives the opportunity to buy/make parts and build something that's not from a kit.

Personally I am not imaginative enough to come up with a design of my own that isn't just a plain 'fins & nose cone' rocket.

Open Rocket will allow you to read and manipulate Rocksim files. The Rocket Reviews website has a great Rocksim library. Some kit manufactures have the files on their website for their current offerings. Ethics dictates that we not cut the throats of the manufacturers/vendors buy scrathing what they are currently selling. However, it allows one to build an up- or downscale if that is your preference. (Personally I feel it is still appropriate to purchase the original kit just the same, so that the designer is paid for his/her creativity.)

YMMV

 

[Jake]

Hobbylinc web site I suppose. They carry most of the materials you'll need for scratch building.
https://www.hobbylinc.com/model_rockets

Then I would download OPENROCKET, it's FREE! You've got to have JAVA to run it.
Open Rocket is great for designing rockets. I'm still learning how to use it myself.

https://openrocket.sourceforge.net/

I use Epoxy from AIRCRAFTSPRUCE .com
I don't like 15minute or 30 minute.
Check out the SCALE section and look for my Bull Pup thread, the Epoxy is in there on the first page or 2...

Regards,

JP

Great thanks! I'll definitely download that program.
So what Epoxy would you suggest?
hmmm.... I cant seem to find that thread....
Jake

 

[Rex R]

if you haven't already read it, the handbook of model rocketry by G.H. Stine makes for a decent read, and covers the basics nicely.
rex

 

[Scotty Dog]

More usefull info here...https://www.apogeerockets.com/
I started a few years back and picked up Timothy S. Van Milligan's book..."Model Rocket Design And Construction"
As far as where to start, Ild say your off to a good start already by being here and asking questions.
You can get the answer to any "Q" here, BUT, we do incourage trying to find the answers by learning/studying the hobby.
Kinda like the ole ...give a man a fish...teach a man to fish.
THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE!!!!!!!!!!
Have Fun! :lol:

 

[Jake]

I think the best place to start is ask yourself what you want to build. What kind of rocket do you like? What gives you the thrill? Then, as JP already mentioned, download Open Rocket and have fun.

I found with my first scrath build, I down loaded a Rocksim file for an oop classic rocket that I wanted to resurect (EAC Viper) and 2x up sized it. Some folks wouldn't call that a scratch build, but it gives the opportunity to buy/make parts and build something that's not from a kit.

Personally I am not imaginative enough to come up with a design of my own that isn't just a plain 'fins & nose cone' rocket.

Open Rocket will allow you to read and manipulate Rocksim files. The Rocket Reviews website has a great Rocksim library. Some kit manufactures have the files on their website for their current offerings. Ethics dictates that we not cut the throats of the manufacturers/vendors buy scrathing what they are currently selling. However, it allows one to build an up- or downscale if that is your preference. (Personally I feel it is still appropriate to purchase the original kit just the same, so that the designer is paid for his/her creativity.)

YMMV

Thanks for the info rex. Basically, i just want to build a simple, one engine, rocket (I really like the der red max and big bertha). So yeah, it will probably turn out being simple noes cone and fins
I cant wait to play with openrocket..
So really I just need to collect the necessary parts, and assemble it correctly as if it were a set?
Jake

 

[Jake]

if you haven't already read it, the handbook of model rocketry by G.H. Stine makes for a decent read, and covers the basics nicely.
rex

thanks ill look it up!
Jake

 

[Jake]

More usefull info here...https://www.apogeerockets.com/
I started a few years back and picked up Timothy S. Van Milligan's book..."Model Rocket Design And Construction"
As far as where to start, Ild say your off to a good start already by being here and asking questions.
You can get the answer to any "Q" here, BUT, we do incourage trying to find the answers by learning/studying the hobby.
Kinda like the ole ...give a man a fish...teach a man to fish.
THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE!!!!!!!!!!
Have Fun! :lol:

Awesome thanks for that link! Ill look into that book as well.
thanks!
Jake

 

[Jake]

ok, so I downloaded openrocket, but it just downloaded as ton of files.... but no icon to access it. any one else have this problem?

 

[Jake]

another question. If I was to build a der red max per these instructions, would I be able to use a BT-50 motor mount?

 

[Jake]

and another (hehe cant stop now what thickness balsa is good for fins?
as always, Thanks!
Jake

 

[T-Rex]

I'll try to tackle your questions one at a time...

Open Rocket: You don't install it like a normal WinDose program. Do NOT open and extract it. Right click on the download, in the dialog box that opens is a line that says "open with". If you left click on that, it opens another dialog box, click on select a program. In that box, at the bottom of the list is an option for "always use this program" or something like that, make sure it is checked. Then tell it to open with Java. It should open up. You can create a short cut to the original download and put it on your desktop.

Red Max with a 24mm motor mount: You would need to open the file and see what happens to the cp/cg relationship with a 24mm motor installed. Even if you could make it fly, are you sure you want to? Could make for a sacrifice to the sky gods, or at the least a long walk..........

Fin Thickness: Estes has made/makes their rocket using 1/16, 3/32 and 1/8 balsa. Some upscales are made with 3/16 balsa, then ya get into plywood, basswood and fiberglass as well... You really need to look at the model you are designing/building and decide from there.

Sadly I did not even think about the books/newsletters or videos available. All of what has been mentioned are great resources. The Apogee website has both videos and newsletters available for free download that are just chock full of great information.

Ask questions, read, think and have fun!!

 

[jpummil]

Have a look at a tutorial I wrote awhile back for using OpenRocket: https://comp.uark.edu/~jpummil/OR-Start.pdf

Needs an update, but still functional and a good start...

 

[Jake]

I'll try to tackle your questions one at a time...

Open Rocket: You don't install it like a normal WinDose program. Do NOT open and extract it. Right click on the download, in the dialog box that opens is a line that says "open with". If you left click on that, it opens another dialog box, click on select a program. In that box, at the bottom of the list is an option for "always use this program" or something like that, make sure it is checked. Then tell it to open with Java. It should open up. You can create a short cut to the original download and put it on your desktop.

Red Max with a 24mm motor mount: You would need to open the file and see what happens to the cp/cg relationship with a 24mm motor installed. Even if you could make it fly, are you sure you want to? Could make for a sacrifice to the sky gods, or at the least a long walk..........

Fin Thickness: Estes has made/makes their rocket using 1/16, 3/32 and 1/8 balsa. Some upscales are made with 3/16 balsa, then ya get into plywood, basswood and fiberglass as well... You really need to look at the model you are designing/building and decide from there.

Sadly I did not even think about the books/newsletters or videos available. All of what has been mentioned are great resources. The Apogee website has both videos and newsletters available for free download that are just chock full of great information.

Ask questions, read, think and have fun!!

Thank you so much for your help!
I'm still getting used to out new windows 8 system, so I guess that's why I couldn't figure it out. Java downloading now!
So im guessing you saying that a 24mm mount might be over doing it? What would it use other wise? (sorry, I really have limited knowledge of whats out there, so I just assumed that a rocket with a BT-50 body tube, would use a BT-50 motor mount...)
thankfully, I was able to find both of those books at my library!!! More reading
Jake

 

[Jake]

Have a look at a tutorial I wrote awhile back for using OpenRocket: https://comp.uark.edu/~jpummil/OR-Start.pdf

Needs an update, but still functional and a good start...

Thanks for sharing. I will definitely use this as a reference once I get it up and running.

 

[KenRico]

Good topic!

One of my first clones was with some basic LoC parts.

Inexpensive 2.6 inch nose body tube and a motor mount tube and you are 1/2 there. Couple of centering rings and some fins and you got a rocket. You can add a coupler and another body tube to go big or do a payload section.

Maybe its a Frankenstein thing but I think its easier to work with the heavy duty tubes and plywood fins . You can get preslotted body tube not just for strength , but it is easier to mount the fins.if you are not ready for epoxy fillets, the through the wall gives you more glue points.

If you are concerned abojt stability you can look at the kits and size your parts almost identically, if you do add a payload the same rocket will be more stable than the stock counterpart.

Whatever you decide , post some pics of your project.

Kenny

 

[JP Morgan]

Great thanks! I'll definitely download that program.
So what Epoxy would you suggest?
hmmm.... I cant seem to find that thread....
Jake

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/gflex3.php
This link, above, should take you to the Epoxy I use. It has a Long Pot Life and sticks good to plastic and Fiber Glass plus is very strong. I used to build RC Planes using Bob Smith Epoxy and it's of my own opinion that Rocketry is not what I would use it for. In
fact I've seen BS Epoxy fail on plywood bulk heads on RC planes. The quicker it dries, the less strength it will usually have.

JP

 

[qquake2k]

My first scratch build as a BAR was my 2x24mm cluster Double Pumper. I wasn't using Open Rocket then, I just designed it by the seat of my pants. It turned out to be a great flyer, though.

My first MPR scratcher was Slipstream. Again, I designed it by the seat of my pants. I flew the heck out of that poor rocket!

I also did a pair of smaller rockets, Fat Alpha and Fat Omega. They're fun flyers. I usually fly them as a drag race. I have since done a scale scratch build, and several high power, including my Level 2 rocket.

I get most of my components from Hobbylinc, LOC Precision, Balsa Machining, and Mercury Engineering. For epoxy, I use two-part 5, 15, or 30 minute that I usually get from Hobbylinc.

Upscales can be a lot of fun too. I built a modified Estes Vagabond from a kit, then built a 3" upscale of it. I also built a 4" upscale of the first rocket I built and flew as a kid, the Estes Alpha III. The point is, when it comes to scratch building the sky's the limit. Literally! Just start with a simple design and have fun! For smaller rockets, I prefer basswood over balsa. It's a little stronger.

 

[Jake]

Good topic!

One of my first clones was with some basic LoC parts.

Inexpensive 2.6 inch nose body tube and a motor mount tube and you are 1/2 there. Couple of centering rings and some fins and you got a rocket. You can add a coupler and another body tube to go big or do a payload section.

Maybe its a Frankenstein thing but I think its easier to work with the heavy duty tubes and plywood fins . You can get preslotted body tube not just for strength , but it is easier to mount the fins.if you are not ready for epoxy fillets, the through the wall gives you more glue points.

If you are concerned abojt stability you can look at the kits and size your parts almost identically, if you do add a payload the same rocket will be more stable than the stock counterpart.

Whatever you decide , post some pics of your project.

Kenny

Ok so i got a question for ya what are sentering rings??? (I've only built kits so allot of this stuff is like trying to read greek)
and what do you mean by epoxy fillets?
haha and what is a payload??
It may take a while, but ill get it built and post some pics
Jakester

 

[Jake]

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/gflex3.php
This link, above, should take you to the Epoxy I use. It has a Long Pot Life and sticks good to plastic and Fiber Glass plus is very strong. I used to build RC Planes using Bob Smith Epoxy and it's of my own opinion that Rocketry is not what I would use it for. In
fact I've seen BS Epoxy fail on plywood bulk heads on RC planes. The quicker it dries, the less strength it will usually have.

JP

thanks for the recommendation!!
Jake

 

[Jake]

My first scratch build as a BAR was my 2x24mm cluster Double Pumper. I wasn't using Open Rocket then, I just designed it by the seat of my pants. It turned out to be a great flyer, though.

My first MPR scratcher was Slipstream. Again, I designed it by the seat of my pants. I flew the heck out of that poor rocket!

I also did a pair of smaller rockets, Fat Alpha and Fat Omega. They're fun flyers. I usually fly them as a drag race. I have since done a scale scratch build, and several high power, including my Level 2 rocket.

I get most of my components from Hobbylinc, LOC Precision, Balsa Machining, and Mercury Engineering. For epoxy, I use two-part 5, 15, or 30 minute that I usually get from Hobbylinc.

Upscales can be a lot of fun too. I built a modified Estes Vagabond from a kit, then built a 3" upscale of it. I also built a 4" upscale of the first rocket I built and flew as a kid, the Estes Alpha III. The point is, when it comes to scratch building the sky's the limit. Literally! Just start with a simple design and have fun! For smaller rockets, I prefer basswood over balsa. It's a little stronger.

Ok, so heres a question for you too what is a BAR??
Yeah im guessing this one is gonna be a clone of a der red max, maybe some small changes, but im not sure. and it will probably be done by, 'the seat of my pants'
Thanks for those links. I think I've found everything i need (from hobbylink im pretty sure) except nose cone and fins.... so im still searching for those.
thanks again!
Jake

 

[Scotty Dog]

Ok so i got a question for ya what are sentering rings??? (I've only built kits so allot of this stuff is like trying to read greek)
and what do you mean by epoxy fillets?
haha and what is a payload??
It may take a while, but ill get it built and post some pics
Jakester

I think you need to do some HOMEWORK.
All those questions are basic rocket knowlege.I could give you the answers,but,I feel if you really want to go forward in this hobby,again,do some homework.
Heres another link with tons of rocket info...
https://www.modelrockets.us/model_rocket_educational_resources.php
Hope you dont take this the wrong way.
I just feel knowlege is priceless.

BAR=Bad Ass Rocketeer :lol:
I think it really means=Back At Rocketry.

Also...using TRF Archives and Advanced Search can get you loads of info.
For instance,using Advanced Search I find this for BAR...https://www.modelrockets.us/model_rocket_educational_resources.php
For Centering Rings I find this...https://www.modelrockets.us/model_rocket_educational_resources.php
Have fun and again,dont take this the wrong way...you will go alot futher in this hobby if you find and learn the answers.
Im not saying I look up every question I have,but I will (most times) try and find the answer myself.
As they say,its not the destination,its the trip.
You will pick up all kinds of info while searching for answers to other questions.
I found the above site (Model Rockets.US)just tonight searching for you. How about that.ya see,it does work.
later
Scott

 

[JP Morgan]

thanks for the recommendation!!
Jake

You are welcome!
I've built 4 rockets with the Epoxy and still have half left!
There's allot to learn, must read up on some threads...

Welcome.

JP

 

[Jake]

I think you need to do some HOMEWORK.
All those questions are basic rocket knowlege.I could give you the answers,but,I feel if you really want to go forward in this hobby,again,do some homework.
Heres another link with tons of rocket info...
https://www.modelrockets.us/model_rocket_educational_resources.php
Hope you dont take this the wrong way.
I just feel knowlege is priceless.

BAR=Bad Ass Rocketeer :lol:
I think it really means=Back At Rocketry.

Also...using TRF Archives and Advanced Search can get you loads of info.
For instance,using Advanced Search I find this for BAR...https://www.modelrockets.us/model_rocket_educational_resources.php
For Centering Rings I find this...https://www.modelrockets.us/model_rocket_educational_resources.php
Have fun and again,dont take this the wrong way...you will go alot futher in this hobby if you find and learn the answers.
Im not saying I look up every question I have,but I will (most times) try and find the answer myself.
As they say,its not the destination,its the trip.
You will pick up all kinds of info while searching for answers to other questions.
I found the above site (Model Rockets.US)just tonight searching for you. How about that.ya see,it does work.
later
Scott

Hey thanks for the kick to look that stuff up myself. Honestly, I feel like an idiot now... Every Thing I asked about I knew what it was... I just didn't know what it was called (I really had no clue what BAR meant though thanks)
Epixy fillets, I see now I've used those myself.. Without knowing what is was called, same thing with centering rings, and I have an old rocket with a clear section to lift a payload (I think I sent a Lego dude into orbit or something)
That website is pretty swell as well... Will have to dig into that some more. Also, Please don't hesitate to correct me, or give me advice... I know your only trying to help, and I appreciate constructive criticism
Jake

 

[qquake2k]

BAR = Born Again Rocketeer

 

[Jake]

Ahh I see!

 

[Scotty Dog]

That website is pretty swell as well... Will have to dig into that some more. Also, Please don't hesitate to correct me, or give me advice... I know your only trying help and I appreciate constructive criticism
Jake

Yup,Im going to dig around that site some more me-self. As I said,I just found it lastnight.
Anywhoo- on another note,I think its very cool your building a "SCRATCHER".
I have a bunch of them.
Its such a thrill when "YOUR" design lifts off the pad.
Good Luck and keep us updated on your build.
We like lots of pictures...:wink:

 

[Jake]

Anywhoo- on another note,I think its very cool your building a "SCRATCHER".
I have a bunch of them.
Its such a thrill when "YOUR" design lifts off the pad.
Good Luck and keep us updated on your build.
We like lots of pictures...:wink:

Yeah I think it'll be a cool experience
Ok I will post some pics (I just hanven't started yet) Im still making sure I have found all the parts i need.
Jake

 

[JP Morgan]

Thanks for the info rex. Basically, i just want to build a simple, one engine, rocket (I really like the der red max and big bertha). So yeah, it will probably turn out being simple noes cone and fins
I cant wait to play with openrocket..
So really I just need to collect the necessary parts, and assemble it correctly as if it were a set?
Jake

Right, assemble just like it was a set.
If you are making your own centering rings, like I do, I use a Dremel Circle Cutter and it works just fine.
Cutting out the center part of the ring can be done several ways, like drilling many small holes up to the line then use the Dremel Barrel Sander piece, or use a Forstner Bit which is very expensive! I purchased a Forstner Bit but it wasn't the proper size so I had to use the Dremel barrel sander any ways.
You can save allot of money if you make your own centering rings. WallyWorld in the Crafts section has "light plywood" 7" round that I use but I also purchase Baltic Birch Plywood from HobbyLinc for the top centering ring as it takes all of the stress of holding the top parts that come flying out when ejected and so on.

JP