Estes E Controller

[SteveA]

I bought one of these yesterday, what's the difference between it and regular controller other than heavier wires? Does it allow more amps to flow to the igniters? I probably already know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask it any way, does it have enough giddy-up to ignite a three E engine cluster?

 

[chadrog]

Heavier and longer wires, that's it. Even with brand new batteries, It's not likely to light three estes igniters. Q2G2's maybe, but I couldn't say for sure. At any rate, if you want to fly clusters succesfully, you shouldn't take chances and step it up to a 12v higher amp system. They can be put together easily (and relatively cheap).

 

[SteveA]

Heavier and longer wires, that's it.

That's what I thought. Good thing it was on sale and I was able to get it relatively cheap. As far as the cluster, I figured that too, but I had to ask.

Thanks!
Steve

 

[bobkrech]

You won't have any problems lighting 3 Quest Q2G2 igniters with the Estes E Launch Controller, but you should replace the lightbulb with an LED so there is no change that checking the continuity will activate the low current Quest igniters.

The description of an Estes Launcher can be found here.

https://www2.estesrockets.com/pdf/2811_Estes_Model_Rocket_Launch_Systems.pdf

Bob

 

[shreadvector]

LEDs can be found here:

https://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1174&parent=192

 

[SteveA]

You won't have any problems lighting 3 Quest Q2G2 igniters with the Estes E Launch Controller, but you should replace the lightbulb with an LED so there is no change that checking the continuity will activate the low current Quest igniters.

Really? Good! I'll give it a try!

 

[SteveF]

I have been meaning to order those bulbs for a bit - thanks for reminding me - just ordered one of each color - any stand out more than the others?

 

[luke strawwalker]

You can always use an external 12 volt battery with your E controller-- just buy some lamp cord and battery charger clamps and solder the ends of the lamp cord to the AA battery contacts inside the controller case, tie a strain relief knot in the wire inside the case, and thread the cord out through a hole in the case, then solder/crimp on the battery charger clamps on the other ends. Now you can use a car battery, battery jumper box, lawnmower battery, etc... use your imagination... You COULD put a cigarette lighter plug end on the lamp cord and go straight to a car battery jumper box or lighter/accessory plug in the car, but IMHO it's less adaptable...

The only problem is, it STILL doesn't really address the problem of the ignitor clip leads being too small to really be able to pass a high amp load... BUT at least you'd ditch the wimpy AA's and be using a battery system that has plenty of power and reserve...

There are several threads on here about reworking Estes controllers... with pics...

Later! OL JR

 

[shreadvector]

I'm confused about your comment about "the problem of the ignitor clip leads being too small to really be able to pass a high amp load". The Estes E controller has very heavy wires that can pass a lot of current with very little 'loss'.

If the current E controller has a screw on/off back then you can solder to the battery contacts (and you'll need to use a liquid acid flux). If the back is permanently glued on, then you need to build a battery bypass assembly with a small dowel with one wire screwed to the end and then feed that into the battery compartment like you install the AA battery, then install 2 more battery sized dowels or dead AA batteries to fill it and press the wire/dowel against the contact deep inside. Ditto for the 4th battery.

Also, the bulb probably has a glued on white transluscent cover. you'll probably have to cut that off for the LED lamp. The cover is needed to protect the hard-to-find-and-replace 6 volt lamp. They break when you drop the controller. no such problem with the rugged LED.

You can always use an external 12 volt battery with your E controller-- just buy some lamp cord and battery charger clamps and solder the ends of the lamp cord to the AA battery contacts inside the controller case, tie a strain relief knot in the wire inside the case, and thread the cord out through a hole in the case, then solder/crimp on the battery charger clamps on the other ends. Now you can use a car battery, battery jumper box, lawnmower battery, etc... use your imagination... You COULD put a cigarette lighter plug end on the lamp cord and go straight to a car battery jumper box or lighter/accessory plug in the car, but IMHO it's less adaptable...

The only problem is, it STILL doesn't really address the problem of the ignitor clip leads being too small to really be able to pass a high amp load... BUT at least you'd ditch the wimpy AA's and be using a battery system that has plenty of power and reserve...

There are several threads on here about reworking Estes controllers... with pics...

Later! OL JR

 

[Wayco]

You can always use an external 12 volt battery with your E controller-- just buy some lamp cord and battery charger clamps and solder the ends of the lamp cord to the AA battery contacts inside the controller case, tie a strain relief knot in the wire inside the case, and thread the cord out through a hole in the case, then solder/crimp on the battery charger clamps on the other ends. Now you can use a car battery, battery jumper box, lawnmower battery, etc... use your imagination... You COULD put a cigarette lighter plug end on the lamp cord and go straight to a car battery jumper box or lighter/accessory plug in the car, but IMHO it's less adaptable...

The only problem is, it STILL doesn't really address the problem of the ignitor clip leads being too small to really be able to pass a high amp load... BUT at least you'd ditch the wimpy AA's and be using a battery system that has plenty of power and reserve...

There are several threads on here about reworking Estes controllers... with pics...

Later! OL JR

I'm looking to do this with my Pratt Hobbies "Go box", just not sure what gauge wire I should use. Not doing any clusters, but I want to stretch my wire out to 100 ft. to launch the "H" and "I" motors I just certified for. I'm using a big 12v deep cycle battery that has 550 cold cranking amps. Any suggestions? Should I upgrade my clips too?

 

[chadrog]

I'm looking to do this with my Pratt Hobbies "Go box", just not sure what gauge wire I should use. Not doing any clusters, but I want to stretch my wire out to 100 ft. to launch the "H" and "I" motors I just certified for. I'm using a big 12v deep cycle battery that has 550 cold cranking amps. Any suggestions? Should I upgrade my clips too?

I use speaker wire and a motorcycle battery for my "away" pad. Has always worked fine.

 

[luke strawwalker]

I'm confused about your comment about "the problem of the ignitor clip leads being too small to really be able to pass a high amp load". The Estes E controller has very heavy wires that can pass a lot of current with very little 'loss'.

If the current E controller has a screw on/off back then you can solder to the battery contacts (and you'll need to use a liquid acid flux). If the back is permanently glued on, then you need to build a battery bypass assembly with a small dowel with one wire screwed to the end and then feed that into the battery compartment like you install the AA battery, then install 2 more battery sized dowels or dead AA batteries to fill it and press the wire/dowel against the contact deep inside. Ditto for the 4th battery.

Also, the bulb probably has a glued on white transluscent cover. you'll probably have to cut that off for the LED lamp. The cover is needed to protect the hard-to-find-and-replace 6 volt lamp. They break when you drop the controller. no such problem with the rugged LED.

Maybe they've changed them, but the E controllers I've seen in HL (haven't bought one myself-- they're kinda pricey and I rebuilt my old Estes controllers into units MUCH more capable and better than the E controller) didn't have particularly thick looking wire to me-- certainly not as thick as bulk lamp cord! What I've seen looks like a little thicker version of the twin-lead light bell/small speaker wire they use on the "regular" Estes controllers. Add in the extra length (adding resistance) and I doubt its resistance is any lower than the small Estes controllers...

Also, you don't want to use ACID CORE solder or acid flux when soldering wiring-- acid core corrodes and is mainly used for stuff like jewelry soldering and pipe soldering. For electrical contacts and circuit wiring soldering, you want to use ROSIN CORE solder...

Later! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

I'm looking to do this with my Pratt Hobbies "Go box", just not sure what gauge wire I should use. Not doing any clusters, but I want to stretch my wire out to 100 ft. to launch the "H" and "I" motors I just certified for. I'm using a big 12v deep cycle battery that has 550 cold cranking amps. Any suggestions? Should I upgrade my clips too?

What I did when I reworked my Estes controllers (old Solar controller and a Pola-Pulse controller) is I added lamp cord for the external battery as mentioned previously, and then added lamp cord to the connections coming out to the launch leads. It's fairly easy to solder the lamp cord directly to the contacts inside the controller case, tie a strain relief knot in the cord, and using a hobby knife, cut a hole/slot big enough in the case for the cord to pass thru while retaining the strain relief knot inside.

I ran about 2 feet of cord outside the case and then installed a cheap 110V electrical plug (the kind you can get at Home Depot or Lowes to fix appliances with bad cords or plugs)-- a female end on the leads coming out of the controller, and then I cut another 2-3 feet of lamp cord and installed a male plug on it. On the other end of the lamp cord, I cut the web connecting the two leads and pulled them apart from each other about a foot back, and then stripped the ends and soldered on microclips to attach to the ignitor(s).

When I go to launch, I carry a regular 110V extension cord with me to plug into the controller female leadout and then string it out to the pad, and plug the male cord with the clips into the end of the extension cord-- instant 50 foot leads, and they can do double duty around the house/shop between launches!) Don't see much reason why you couldn't use a 100 foot cord, especially if you have a "hot" enough battery (the one you mentioned should be plenty!) Just don't forget your extension cord at home!!!

Here's some pics of my setup and the wiring component diagram from inside the controller...

Later! OL JR

 

[Wayco]

This is exactly what I had in mind. I already have a good two prong 100 ft. extension chord, but still don't know what GAUGE wire to use between the battery and my "go box". I have heard that igniters can draw lots of current (30 amps?) and am wondering if my wires are large enough. Speaker wire can go from 18 ga. to 12 ga. or more, and you can get lamp chord in several different sizes too. I guess I will just match the gauge of the extension chord.

 

[powderburner]

30 amps sounds a little high to me. I think the rule-of-thumb is to allow 2 amps per Estes igniter (multiply by the number of motors in your cluster) but this is more to ensure a quick, solid ignition. The Estes igniters will fire with lower amps but may be slow to fire. The new Quest Q2G2s will fire with a lot less power

SteveA, the main difference in the Estes "E" launch controller is that the leads are 30 feet long to comply with safety reqmts for the larger motors. (Regular Estes controller leads are 15 ft. long) Actually, I kinda like using longer leads because you get a better view of the launch, even if you have to walk a few feet further to load the launcher.

 

[RocketManDan]

You won't have any problems lighting 3 Quest Q2G2 igniters with the Estes E Launch Controller, but you should replace the lightbulb with an LED so there is no change that checking the continuity will activate the low current Quest igniters.

The description of an Estes Launcher can be found here.

https://www2.estesrockets.com/pdf/2811_Estes_Model_Rocket_Launch_Systems.pdf

Bob

I need to replace the light in mine as well...great site especially because I also own a pinball machine...

Thanks!!

 

[Rex R]

if the distance between the 'go-box' and the battery/power supply is less than say 5' 16ga will likely work fine(30 amp or less), considering that you likely will not be drawing that kind of current for more than a few seconds.

 

[Rex R]

and if you need/want more than 30amps at the pad then you really should be considering a relay box, 12-14 ga wire gets real heavy real quick when you start talking large quantities .
rex

 

[bobkrech]

Gentlemen

There is no reason to guess what the ingiter current is, or what size wire you need. Dr. Ohm figured this out a long time ago.

I, amps = V, volts/R, ohms. This equation works every time.

Estes quotes the resistance of their igniters as 0.8 ohms and quotes an all-fire current of 2 amps. The minimum voltage drop across an Estes igniter is therefore, V = RI = 0.8 x 2 = 1.6 volts. If you want to make sure you get prompt ignition, you may double the current, which would double the required voltage drop across the igniter to 3.2 volts.

In the former case with a standard Estes 6 volt launch controller, the maximum allowable voltage drop in the controller and wiring is 6 -1.6 = 4.4 volts. The total resistance of the battery, controller and wiring must be less than R = V/I = 4.4/2 = 2.2 ohms. In the latter case to deliver 4 amps from an 6 volt Estes controller, the maximum allowable launcher circuit voltage drop is 6 - 3.2 = 2.8 volts so the highest allowable resistance is R = V/I = 2.8/4 = 0.7 ohms.

Using a 12 volt battery, the launcher resistances can be higher. To fire 1 Estes igniter, the voltage drop in the launcher circuit can increase to 12 - 1.6 = 10.4 volts with 2 amps or 12 - 3.2 = 8.8 volts at 4 amps, allowing the launch controller resistance to increase to R = 10.4/2 = 5.1 ohms for 2 amps or R = 8.8/4 = 4.4 ohms for 4 amps.

You numbers will vary depending on what resistance igniter you use, and the number of igniters you fire at once.

Bob

 

[shreadvector]

I posted test results that I obtained testing various controllers with the stock batteries and with alternative batteries (I ran the tests for a motor manufacturer who wanted to gather data on igniter issues reported from average users). The E controller with the much thicker and longer wires has less resistance and delivers more current to the igniters - which is precisely why Estes recommended that you use only this controller when launching their 2 x 18mm motor cluster rocket that they sold recently (one of the X-prize rockets).

The modern Estes controllers have chrome plated or stainless battery contacts and regular solder flux will *NOT* work on them. you must use a liquid acid flux - I use the same one I use when soldering stainless micro clips - "Duzall". OLDER Estes controllers from the 1970s had steel contacts with a microscopically thin brass coating (and would rust when the brass was scraped off) and they could be soldered to with regular rosin core solder. Since we are talking about a modern Estes E controller, the facts I have presented will be more useful.

https://products.esabna.com/EN/home...filler_metals_allstate_fluxes_allstate_duzall


https://www.airgas.com/browse/productDetail.aspx?Category=21&product=ESA69080161

Maybe they've changed them, but the E controllers I've seen in HL (haven't bought one myself-- they're kinda pricey and I rebuilt my old Estes controllers into units MUCH more capable and better than the E controller) didn't have particularly thick looking wire to me-- certainly not as thick as bulk lamp cord! What I've seen looks like a little thicker version of the twin-lead light bell/small speaker wire they use on the "regular" Estes controllers. Add in the extra length (adding resistance) and I doubt its resistance is any lower than the small Estes controllers...

Also, you don't want to use ACID CORE solder or acid flux when soldering wiring-- acid core corrodes and is mainly used for stuff like jewelry soldering and pipe soldering. For electrical contacts and circuit wiring soldering, you want to use ROSIN CORE solder...

Later! OL JR

 

[powderburner]

LEDs can be found here:

https://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1174&parent=192

That looks like a great link to a good product, I had not seen those before. Gonna have to order some now....

Thanks again for sharing the tip

 

[SteveA]

I see what you mean about replacing the bulb with LEDs and the use of Quest igniters...For the heck of it, I clipped an Estes controller to the Q2G2 and pushed the continuity checker and sure enough...Woosh.

 

[shreadvector]

That looks like a great link to a good product, I had not seen those before. Gonna have to order some now....

Thanks again for sharing the tip

Since this is a safey issue, we now hand them out (actually install them on site) at our club launches for anyone who shows up with an Estes controller and Q2G2 igniters. Freebies thanks to the NAR Section Safety Grant program.

 

[SteveA]

I just placed an order for some.

 

[SteveA]

Mine arrived today. One thing is for sure, there is no mistaking if you have continuity or not..they're bright! The green is almost blinding! Slapped in a Q2G2 igniter pressed the continuity check, no ignition until I pressed the fire control. Thanks for the advice! I changed all the bulbs in my seven Estes controllers.

Thanks again!

Steve

 

[FastCargo]

Ordered some myself 2 days ago. Hope to have them before this weekend...

FC