Dr. Zooch Return To Flight Space Shuttle build thread- #2
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Odo
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luke strawwalker
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The truth comes out... shame shame! :no: HAhahaha...
Well, you've got a high target to aim for now, doncha??
Later! OL JR
shewme
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well I have been busy since I jot of work today
i worked on the orbiter for several hours, still meed to paint, add the lugs to the bottom and the screw and elevater hardware.
i hope you can see the small spike on top, the tip of a tooth pick. Does anyone know the reason for the spike on the ET, is it for aerodynamics, or is it like a pitot static tube on a aircraft.
Well I am good for the day I will try for more tommorow.
i worked on the orbiter for several hours, still meed to paint, add the lugs to the bottom and the screw and elevater hardware.
i hope you can see the small spike on top, the tip of a tooth pick. Does anyone know the reason for the spike on the ET, is it for aerodynamics, or is it like a pitot static tube on a aircraft.
Well I am good for the day I will try for more tommorow.
luke strawwalker
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Aerospikes like this are mainly to trip the shock wave in supersonic flight... same reason that the Poseidon SLBM's, which have a rounded nosecone for increased hydrodynamic efficiency and space under the nosecone for nuclear warhead reentry vehicles, has an extendable aerospike that deploys a few seconds into flight-- once the rocket goes supersonic, the rounded ogive nosecone shape becomes very inefficient and draggy, and the aerospike sets up a conical shockwave that envelopes the rounded blunt end of the nosecone, and trips the airflow behind the shockwave from supersonic to subsonic, thus acting like a long, steep, conical nosecone from the airflow point of view... thus increasing efficiency...
Later! OL JR
I started work on my new Shuttle kit last night and have gotten the External Tank wrap on, and the engine mount complete with rounded bottom in place.
This time I followed directions and didn't cut OFF the glue tabs, I just cut one side so they could glue behind the neighboring section. I can't decide if this was better, because the way I did it the first time was to cut the tabs off but use them to glue the sections together from the back which resulted in a smoother surface on the outside. However, this time I did coat the inside surface with glue and I'm not sure how I missed that the first go around.
I'm planning on printing and using the wraps for this model, and building a Discovery. I think I'll also glue the flame fins in place permanent to avoid them popping off in flight like my first one did a couple of times.
This time I followed directions and didn't cut OFF the glue tabs, I just cut one side so they could glue behind the neighboring section. I can't decide if this was better, because the way I did it the first time was to cut the tabs off but use them to glue the sections together from the back which resulted in a smoother surface on the outside. However, this time I did coat the inside surface with glue and I'm not sure how I missed that the first go around.
I'm planning on printing and using the wraps for this model, and building a Discovery. I think I'll also glue the flame fins in place permanent to avoid them popping off in flight like my first one did a couple of times.
luke strawwalker
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I shim my flame fins with tape... never had one come out yet...
They should go in firmly but not extremely tight...
Just wraps some tape around the outside of the centering rings that hold the Flame Fin tubes up inside the SRB tubes to get the proper fit...
That way they're still removable for display...
Later! OL JR
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I have the nose section complete, and man those substitute skins look AWESOME!! I'm not going to post pictures of every step, but I'll probably take one of the new nose next to the first one for comparison.
I'm not gluing the nose section in place until the very last step, so that I can add some nose weight as necessary to get the CG to the same spot as my stock build. There are many new details and pieces to add with the wraps and most of them are in the back.
I'm not gluing the nose section in place until the very last step, so that I can add some nose weight as necessary to get the CG to the same spot as my stock build. There are many new details and pieces to add with the wraps and most of them are in the back.
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also brought out some Zooch Lifting Bodies...not the best of pictures, but thought I would post them anyway
my Luftwaffe variant
that blur in the bottom of the picture is the Lifting Body
my US Navy variant at the moment of ignition
gotta love the Zooch fliers!! just a lot of fun to build and fly!
my Luftwaffe variant
that blur in the bottom of the picture is the Lifting Body
my US Navy variant at the moment of ignition
gotta love the Zooch fliers!! just a lot of fun to build and fly!
Here's the two noses next to each other. A lot different with the wraps eh? After I looked at this picture I wanted to check and see if the new nose was longer than the original, and it's not. It just looks that way in the pic. The angles are a bit different so it's not identical shaped, but the length is the same.
I also put the additional black rings of cardstock on the SRBs where the black lines are printed and that definitely makes them look better! I doubt it would show up in a picture but in person they look great that way.
I'll post a bunch of other comparison pictures when I'm completely done with this build.
luke strawwalker
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Looking good... KUTGW! OL JR
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luke strawwalker
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Here's the Zooch shuttle upgrade skins, if anybody's interested...
I think I tried to upload these before a couple years ago and had no luck-- filesize was too big. Hope this works. I've had to email them to folks as they'd ask for them.
If this works and they're here, enjoy!
OL JR
View attachment ZoochShuttleparts endeavour no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttleparts discovery no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttleparts Columbia no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttleparts challenger no layers.pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttleparts Atlantis no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttle_Stickers endeavour no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttle_Stickers discovery no layer.pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttle_Stickers Columbia[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttle_Stickers challenger no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttle_Stickers Atlantis no layer[1].pdf
I think I tried to upload these before a couple years ago and had no luck-- filesize was too big. Hope this works. I've had to email them to folks as they'd ask for them.
If this works and they're here, enjoy!
OL JR
View attachment ZoochShuttleparts endeavour no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttleparts discovery no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttleparts Columbia no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttleparts challenger no layers.pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttleparts Atlantis no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttle_Stickers endeavour no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttle_Stickers discovery no layer.pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttle_Stickers Columbia[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttle_Stickers challenger no layer[1].pdf
View attachment ZoochShuttle_Stickers Atlantis no layer[1].pdf
I've added the stuff to the back of my orbiter (using the wraps above) and it wasn't easy.
The OMS pods were super tricky to cut out but they seemed to fold well.
The RCS pods were nearly impossible to fold correctly. They only showed 1 glue tab but I'm convinced there needed to be a couple more. But with them being so small I don't know if that's why they were left off or not.
I'm convinced that the pattern on the OMS pods for where to glue the RCS pods are backwards. If you go by the shape you'll end up with the RCS pods facing the wrong way.
After I glued the OMS engine bells on I wished I'd put some color on the inside of the bell with a sharpie. I'll have to replace them if I decide I can't live with that white interior.
There are no SSME bells on the wraps. I did make a set of SSMEs for my original shuttle and never glued them on, so I'll probably just use those on this orbiter instead and leave the original without any.
These wraps look AMAZING on this kit!!! Of course it will all be for nothing if the orbiter doesn't glide like the original did. I still haven't glued the nose in place, I'm waiting to finish the back end and find the orbiter CG with the nose just taped in place. I expect I'll have to add some weight. However, to make the nose fit and glue on easier I doubled the spar in the nose to two thicknesses, so that may or may not help with the CG. I'm eager to find out.
I'm also trying to add a lot more detail to my ET than I did last time. I'll take a few tips from earlier builds in this thread to add some lighter colored rings above and below the corrugation and highlights on the tops of the corrugation, as well as putting in a more detailed depressurization line. The last time I think I just went with a tan strip of paper glued on.
The OMS pods were super tricky to cut out but they seemed to fold well.
The RCS pods were nearly impossible to fold correctly. They only showed 1 glue tab but I'm convinced there needed to be a couple more. But with them being so small I don't know if that's why they were left off or not.
I'm convinced that the pattern on the OMS pods for where to glue the RCS pods are backwards. If you go by the shape you'll end up with the RCS pods facing the wrong way.
After I glued the OMS engine bells on I wished I'd put some color on the inside of the bell with a sharpie. I'll have to replace them if I decide I can't live with that white interior.
There are no SSME bells on the wraps. I did make a set of SSMEs for my original shuttle and never glued them on, so I'll probably just use those on this orbiter instead and leave the original without any.
These wraps look AMAZING on this kit!!! Of course it will all be for nothing if the orbiter doesn't glide like the original did. I still haven't glued the nose in place, I'm waiting to finish the back end and find the orbiter CG with the nose just taped in place. I expect I'll have to add some weight. However, to make the nose fit and glue on easier I doubled the spar in the nose to two thicknesses, so that may or may not help with the CG. I'm eager to find out.
I'm also trying to add a lot more detail to my ET than I did last time. I'll take a few tips from earlier builds in this thread to add some lighter colored rings above and below the corrugation and highlights on the tops of the corrugation, as well as putting in a more detailed depressurization line. The last time I think I just went with a tan strip of paper glued on.
luke strawwalker
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You can paint the inside of the OMS nozzles with black testors paint (the little bottle kind) and a fine-tip paintbrush if you're so inclined... that's how I do the nozzles on the Dr. Zooch Mercury Atlas Friendship 7 I built last year... works great... just takes a steady hand a little careful work. I paint the nozzles of the SSME's on the inside with gunmetal gray paint.. but the OMS nozzles should be darker, as in real life.
Doubling up the forward bulkhead will shift the CG forward. Remember this is a glider and the more weight, the worse the performance will be. You want to keep the weight as low as possible, and adding the extra skins adds weight, so... this one might not glide as well as the other one you've build. Might have been better to print out a second nose and build a new one than add weight to the glider. Plus, now if you have to add weight to the tail to counterbalance the added weight of the bulkhead, it only compounds the problem...
The elevon angle can probably overcome this issue, but the Doc is the one you'd really want to ask...
Yep, the stack looks better the more detail you put on it... the pressurization lines and stuff look better highlighted (they're not depressurization lines, they're pressurization lines... used to pressurize the propellant tanks of the ET on the shuttle. Rocket pressurize their propellant tanks for two reasons-- first it helps push the propellants down the lines to the rocket engine turbopump intakes (for pump fed engines) so that the engine pumps don't cavitate (suck so hard they form bubbles of gas at the pump inlets, which is a very bad thing) and also to stiffen up and strengthen the tank walls to better carry the weight of the spacecraft and cargo or additional stages above them, and better handle the flight loads of the engines pushing from underneath... the exact same way an inflated tire can carry the weight of your car.
Some papermodeling parts are SO small that they don't have glue tabs... they're meant to be "butt-glued" together without tabs... just apply a bit of white glue (usually Aileene's Tacky Glue works better for most papermodeling stuff than Elmer's Glue all, but if the glue all has thickened some from being older or drying out a bit (I like to put a big drop of glue on a sheet of scrap paper and use a bamboo shish-ke-bob skewer from the grocery store, or a toothpick, to apply the glue to the areas needed) it will work well too... Just apply a SMALL amount of glue, and then hold the parts together... the paper will wick the moisture out of the glue and it should set up in a few seconds or so... let it dry and then you can apply a touch more glue using the tip of the skewer or toothpick to "fillet" the joint or strengthen it up if you feel it needs it.
Later and good luck! OL JR
Everything in this thread about the wraps mentions how they add serious weight to the back of the orbiter and you'll have to add weight to the nose to bring the CG back to the right place. I only doubled the bulkhead because I was planning on needed to add nose weight anyway and figured it could only help. I guess we'll see how badly my assumptions were after I'm done.
That was a typo on my part. I meant to type REpressurization lines. I think in my build posts earlier in this thread I called it a cable tray a lot. So I looked it up over the weekend and saw that it was called a repressurization line on a diagram.
Thanks for the tips on the glue and small paper parts!. If I have to do any other small parts someday I'll definitely do it that way. And I guess you're right, as much as I hate painting with a brush that's probably the best way to paint the insides of those RCS engine bells.
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hey Mushtang...what weight paper did you use for the new Orbiter? was it 110 lb or 65lb?
110. It's all I had at the house when I decided to print.
You think it'll be too heavy?
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I honestly don't know..I wasn't sure if Dr. Zooch used 110lb paper or 65lb paper for his orbiter. not sure if it would make a difference.
luke strawwalker
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Hmmm... with any luck, you'll be spot on with the extra bulkhead weight then... balsa isn't that heavy. Just as a general recommendation, though, gliders fly best when the weight is kept to an absolute minimum (as much as possible).
This will be a learning experience for all of us... Looking forward to seeing how this works for you. Please keep us all updated here... really is neat.
Not trying to be a smarta$$ about the lines; just didn't know if you knew that or not... figured it couldn't hurt to share. "Cable tray" or "cable tunnel" is also basically correct, since most of the vehicle's wiring to various sensors and to activate various valves for pressure regulation, venting, and determining propellant quantities and levels are run alongside the vehicle adjacent to the repress lines. There's also "bubbler lines" that inject helium into the propellant lines while the rocket is sitting on the pad, to keep the propellant in the line "stirred up" so that it doesn't form bubbles or voids, since the propellant ducts soak up heat a lot easier 9more surface area) than the tanks themselves do... keeps the propellants at a more uniform temperature, and thus ensures the same vapor pressure... if the propellant in the line gets near the boiling point, at engine startup, the sudden drop in pressure caused by the pumps starting to suck propellant down the duct could cause it to instantly boil off into vapor, leading to a "cavitation" when the bubble hit the turbopump impeller inlet... or worse, a "hard start" in the rocket engine which could blow it apart... fascinating, all the factors that have to be accounted for and dealt with in rocket design...
Later and good luck! OL JR
luke strawwalker
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I think the Doc uses 65 pound for most everything. The 110 pound will be heavier, for sure, but there is SO little extra material involved I don't think it'd amount to over a gram or so at the most...
Weigh a sheet or two of 65 pound cardstock and the same amount of 110 pound, using a VERY accurate scale (I got one of those little "digital pocket scales" from Harbor Freight that measures down to tenths of a gram, troy ounces, and all that sort of "jeweler's measures" denominations, for like $10-- VERY handy rocket construction scale!) and then compare the difference in weight... since the Zooch shuttle probably doesn't even use a full sheet of cardstock, or if it does certainly less that two full sheets, the actual difference in weight would be proportional to the percentage of the sheets not actually used... IOW if there was say a 2 gram difference for 2 sheets of cardstock, if the kit only actually used say 80% of one sheet, that would be only a 0.8 gram difference in the weight of the orbiter constructed from 110 pound cardstock versus 65 pound cardstock (note I haven't weighed it... just using "theoretical" numbers).
Later! OL JR
My orbiter is finished. The nose did need a small amount of clay to bring the CG forward to the same place as it is on my stock build. Not much though, probably about the size of a pencil eraser, or less. So then I glued on the nose section and test flew it onto my bed and it seemed okay. From my previous experience throwing the original off the deck I'm not putting too much stock in the results. I think I just have to fly it and see what happens.
I also added some details to the ET and Boosters since the orbiter looks so much better. Not finished with the boosters yet, but here is my orbiter and ET together. I'm pretty much doing the things that stargazerdave did with his stack earlier in this thread (page 7, posts 203 and 209). Thanks for the tips Dave! I have a .DOC file with the repressurization line graphic if anyone wants it.
When I finish the boosters I'll post some final pictures.
I also added some details to the ET and Boosters since the orbiter looks so much better. Not finished with the boosters yet, but here is my orbiter and ET together. I'm pretty much doing the things that stargazerdave did with his stack earlier in this thread (page 7, posts 203 and 209). Thanks for the tips Dave! I have a .DOC file with the repressurization line graphic if anyone wants it.
When I finish the boosters I'll post some final pictures.
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Mushtang...that looks FANTASTIC!!!! awesome job! the tank looks amazing! what color/paint did you use for the tank? just a beautiful job! 
I just got another Dr. Zooch Lifting Body in the mail...I might have to get a new shuttle now!!
I just got another Dr. Zooch Lifting Body in the mail...I might have to get a new shuttle now!!
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Mushtang...that looks FANTASTIC!!!! awesome job! the tank looks amazing! what color/paint did you use for the tank? just a beautiful job!
Thanks. I used the same orange can of paint that I got for the first shuttle (Valspar - La Fonda Copper) to do the base color of the ET, then just followed what stargazerdave suggested with the yellow ochre acrylic paint and a brush. For the rings above and below the corrugation I found a yellow ochre image online and copied it to Paint, picked the color and drew a big box to print out. From that paper I cut the two strips and glued them around.
For the repressurization line/cable tray I found a cardstock plan for the ET online and cut and pasted the line/tray from it onto a new sheet. After doctoring it up a bit to fit my ET, I printed it on paper, cut it out, and glued it onto the card stock line/tray that I'd already put onto the ET.
Here's a Before picture. Only base orange color. The card stock line/tray that's on there is the one Dr. Zooch has you glue on to make sure the nose cone is inserted correctly. I just couldn't leave it like this with that nice looking orbiter with the Discovery wraps on it.
(Edit to name the Valspar color)
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Dr.Zooch
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Mushtang...that looks FANTASTIC!!!! awesome job! the tank looks amazing! what color/paint did you use for the tank? just a beautiful job!
Please keep in mind that the addition of paper covering to the wings as well as the OMS pods re-do WILL throw off the CG and the orbiter WILL need additional nose weight in order to get proper flight.
Dr.Zooch
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Actually I use 110# on almost everything (Because you can get it at Sam's Club and it is less expensive) I use 65# exclusivly for the orbiter's bottom image. However, if you use 65# for the mode being shown here, it will help reduce the CG off-set.
In post 504 above I mentioned having to do just that. The CG was back about 1/4" to 1/2", I can't remember exactly, but I added small amounts of clay to the nose until it was back in the same spot that the stock orbiter was.
Wes, I can't tell you how much I'm enjoying this kit and building it for the second time is even more fun than the first. You rock!!
luke strawwalker
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Can you post it, preferably as a .pdf?? I posted the skin wraps here for anybody who wants them, and broke up the big .pdf I had of the Saturn IB markings and posted those to NJRick's excellent Saturn IB article...
If you don't know how to do it, PM me and I'll give you my email and you can send me the file and I'll see if I can figure out how to make a .pdf of it and post it here...
Thanks and looks great! OL JR
