D12-3 CATOs Date code E22 0123

[DirkTheDaring]

I've had a half dozen go boom recently. I'm entering them into MESS one at a time as I have time. I have had 2 replaced by Estes and have recently sent them an email requesting that they replace the 11 unused units that I have, plus the 4 more that have blown up since my last email.

Check your date codes! (I think someone reported a similar but different date code, but I don't recall exactly what it was).

Attached are pics of my poor upscale Sputnik that's had at least 3 CATO's, and yet, still flew!

 

[cwbullet]

It is luck of the draw some times.

 

[Daddyisabar]

It is luck of the draw some times.

With Estes 24mm motors these days you have to deal with the hand dealt to you by the rocket gods. You must be very DARING to fly the kiddie or toy BP motors. Much more dangerous and unreliable than the lucky big boys and gals igniting those awesome high power and reliable composite motors.

Recently I ran into a rocket buddy at Sam's one afternoon. He lamented the numerous D12 3 CATOS he had experienced at the last launch which I had not attended. He said he returned his unused packs to the Hobby Lobby just across the parking lot. Earlier that morning I bought packs of D12 3 at that same store. I said I probably bought his returned toy exploder motors. We were both left in fear.


MAY THE ODDS ALWAYS BE WITH YOU!

 

[Paul Howard]

Wow, Good to know! I'll have to look through my "Bags 'O Motors" and keep that date code written down.

Thanks!!!-Paul

 

[cwbullet]

We see the CATOs come in runs. They are not always from the same batch. Maybe this is a bad batch or just a pack stored wrong somewhere in the supply to fly chain. If we report them, we might find out if Estes is transparent.

 

[Bill S]

Ewwww. Thanks for the heads up. I have only 6 D12-3s, 4 are E22 0622, the other 2 are the ones in question. Hmm... bought them way too long ago to return, even if I did have a receipt.

 

[Back_at_it]

By any chance did you pick these up at hobby lobby when they closed out the D12's? I'm asking as I'm hearing more and more of these stories and they seem to be coming from people that purchased at HL. I'm thinking it might be with the handling of the motors that is happening in stores. I've seen packs with torn packaging, bent corners etc. all indicating they might have been dropped.

Just a hunch but I'm wondering if there is some connection.

 

[Bill S]

I got them from Hobby Lobby last year or so. Around here, the D12-3s don't seem to have been discontinued as they were still on the shelf as of about a month ago (last time I was in there, as I am pretty well stocked on motors).

I'm tempted to just toss the 2 questionable motors, as I don't have many rockets that take D12-3s, and I don't want to potentially sacrifice of my nice rockets to the CATO gods unnecessarily.

 

[PDawg]

I launched over 400 Estes powered rockets in 2023 and the10 CATOs were new, old, direct from Estes, you name it. No consistency in failures except a pack of E-12-6 where all 3 Cato’d. It seems to happen more in cold weather which makes sense since the top and Bottom blew out in every CATO I’ve had. Someone mentioned a guy heated his engines before launch and never had another CATO. I’m going to try this at my next launch, probably with disposable pocket warmers. Many of my motors were from Hobby lobby, but I never buy a pack that has any signs of being dropped or damaged.

 

[SolarYellow]

Thinking about building a Fat Boy or a BT-80 Big Daddy-SS (Slightly Smaller) with an MMT that's somehow robust to CATOs. Would need to handle spitting the plug or just 'sploding, and the MMT thus needs to be easily replaceable. Interesting design challenge. I have an Eggtimer Apogee I could use for deployment.

 

[Raythain]

I got them from Hobby Lobby last year or so. Around here, the D12-3s don't seem to have been discontinued as they were still on the shelf as of about a month ago (last time I was in there, as I am pretty well stocked on motors).

I'm tempted to just toss the 2 questionable motors, as I don't have many rockets that take D12-3s, and I don't want to potentially sacrifice of my nice rockets to the CATO gods unnecessarily.

IMO, questionable motors are a reason to make a low effort scratch build. Slap some parts together, print “decals” on label paper, and send it. Err on the side of heavy/draggy and know it could be a sacrifice.

When Estes did their 13mm recall, I slapped a little guy I call the “Carthago” together to be CATO-bait. Burned a little under half my stash of questionable motors so far, and it’s a different kind of fun wondering what will come back down once they push the button, lol.

 

[PDawg]

Thinking about building a Fat Boy or a BT-80 Big Daddy-SS (Slightly Smaller) with an MMT that's somehow robust to CATOs. Would need to handle spitting the plug or just 'sploding, and the MMT thus needs to be easily replaceable. Interesting design challenge. I have an Eggtimer Apogee I could use for deployment.

I had a D-12-3 Carol last week in a LOC Photon rocket, the only damage was a scorch mark on the parachute. Then again, LOC rockets are built like tanks and survive things that would destroy anything from Estes.

 

[SolarYellow]

When Estes did their 13mm recall, I slapped a little guy I call the “Carthago” together to be CATO-bait. Burned a little under half my stash of questionable motors so far, and it’s a different kind of fun wondering what will come back down once they push the button, lol.

I have three of those A10-0s left. Thinking about CHAD staging them under something nice and stable.

 

[rcktnut]

I agree with some others, I think most of the problems are coming from handling and more so how they a stored.

 

[Art Upton]

I got them from Hobby Lobby last year or so. Around here, the D12-3s don't seem to have been discontinued as they were still on the shelf as of about a month ago (last time I was in there, as I am pretty well stocked on motors).

I'm tempted to just toss the 2 questionable motors, as I don't have many rockets that take D12-3s, and I don't want to potentially sacrifice of my nice rockets to the CATO gods unnecessarily.

Build a single disk spool type rocket for them to fly in, then you will see if they CATO or not. That is generally how I dispose of non HPR motors.

Generally if it CATOs all you need to fix is glue the disk back on the motor tube. Many times they just blow top and bottom and the disk/spool is fine.

 

[4regt4]

I've had a half dozen go boom recently. I'm entering them into MESS one at a time as I have time. I have had 2 replaced by Estes and have recently sent them an email requesting that they replace the 11 unused units that I have, plus the 4 more that have blown up since my last email.

Check your date codes! (I think someone reported a similar but different date code, but I don't recall exactly what it was).

Attached are pics of my poor upscale Sputnik that's had at least 3 CATO's, and yet, still flew!

I've never had a D12-3 Cato yet. (well.... there was one about 30 years ago, and the rest of the pack was fine) I have quite a few D12s and just looked only to find a pack with that date code.

They will be reserved for the Turbo Vortico, a nearly indestructible rocket. Just launched it this last Sunday on a known sketchy D22 Qjet.

It's very disappointing that so many LPR/MPR motors are failing. I recently attended a launch where 5 E12s were fired, and all of them blew up. They were assorted date codes, from different sources. And I've had quite a few D22 and E26 Qjets go bad. Looks like I'll be depending more and more on 24/40 reloads. I might even buy a 18/20 case, but the only available loads for it are a full 20Ns. It would be nice to have smaller alternatives.

Hans.

 

[tsmith1315]

Thinking about building a Fat Boy or a BT-80 Big Daddy-SS (Slightly Smaller) with an MMT that's somehow robust to CATOs

Thinking a fiberglass MMT? Perhaps a thin wall would hold up and not add too much mass.

I had a D-12-3 Carol last week

We might need a picture of that one.

 

[SolarYellow]

Thinking a fiberglass MMT? Perhaps a thin wall would hold up and not add too much mass.

More like trivially replaceable. If it gets blowed up, there's no damage to the rest of the rocket, and I just plug in a new one.

 

[Art Upton]

I've never had a D12-3 Cato yet. (well.... there was one about 30 years ago, and the rest of the pack was fine) I have quite a few D12s and just looked only to find a pack with that date code.
<snip>
And I've had quite a few D22 and E26 Qjets go bad. Looks like I'll be depending more and more on 24/40 reloads. I might even buy a 18/20 case, but the only available loads for it are a full 20Ns. It would be nice to have smaller alternatives.

Hans.

What's happening with the D22 I just got some? I knew the E26 had cuffing issues.

I've had E9s and E12s CATO. The last D motor CATO was the Estes D13-3 known for Kabooms that took out my Maxi-Brute HoJo in 1974

 

[4regt4]

What's happening with the D22 I just got some? I knew the E26 had cuffing issues.

I've had E9s and E12s CATO. The last D motor CATO was the Estes D13-3 known for Kabooms that took out my Maxi-Brute HoJo in 1974

I *think* recently made D22s (and probably E26s) may be OK. Like 2022 or newer, preferably 2023. I recently fired a D22-4 with a 2023 date code that went well. It's the old nozzle erosion issue, and it seems to get worse the longer the motor is stored. Mine are indoors, constant temp, relatively low humidity. But 2020 motors have gigantic erosion problems, and the 2021s I've fired ended up with asymmetrical thrust causing scary skywriting. I'm having the same issues with 18mm Qjets, but some D16Js recently acquired as warranty replacements have rock hard nozzles. I hope that's a good sign for the future.

Hans.

Edit: I'll add that a 2 year old C18W had propellant swelling that nearly precluded igniter insertion. No, it wasn't the nozzle, as the restriction was above the nozzle. After I got the igniter in place, it didn't need the Qpick to hold it, as there was considerable friction inserting it.

 

[Art Upton]

I *think* recently made D22s (and probably E26s) may be OK. Like 2022 or newer, preferably 2023. I recently fired a D22-4 with a 2023 date code that went well. It's the old nozzle erosion issue, and it seems to get worse the longer the motor is stored. Mine are indoors, constant temp, relatively low humidity. But 2020 motors have gigantic erosion problems, and the 2021s I've fired ended up with asymmetrical thrust causing scary skywriting. I'm having the same issues with 18mm Qjets, but some D16Js recently acquired as warranty replacements have rock hard nozzles. I hope that's a good sign for the future.

Hans.

Thanks, I'm worried about my 18mm Q-jets. When they came out I bought a bunch of them and so I have quite a few of them from before 2018.

 

[4regt4]

Thanks, I'm worried about my 18mm Q-jets. When they came out I bought a bunch of them and so I have quite a few of them from before 2018.

Vortico!

The biggest issues I've had with 18mm Qjets have been those with the black nozzles, which seem to have a metal washer cast in just below the surface. The ones I had were early 2022 date codes and much of the surface of the nozzle had crumbled away while still in the package.

Edit: I just noticed this is my 1000th post!

 

[DirkTheDaring]

I've never had a D12-3 Cato yet. (well.... there was one about 30 years ago, and the rest of the pack was fine) I have quite a few D12s and just looked only to find a pack with that date code.

They will be reserved for the Turbo Vortico, a nearly indestructible rocket. Just launched it this last Sunday on a known sketchy D22 Qjet.

It's very disappointing that so many LPR/MPR motors are failing. I recently attended a launch where 5 E12s were fired, and all of them blew up. They were assorted date codes, from different sources. And I've had quite a few D22 and E26 Qjets go bad. Looks like I'll be depending more and more on 24/40 reloads. I might even buy a 18/20 case, but the only available loads for it are a full 20Ns. It would be nice to have smaller alternatives.

Hans.

All the Vorticos are great!

 

[4regt4]

All the Vorticos are great!

Been a while since I last launched mine. I forgot how loud it is.

Hans.

 

[Imaknow]

Check your date codes! (I think someone reported a similar but different date code, but I don't recall exactly what it was).

It was reported as E22 0323 in this post: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...ned-since-bill-stine-left.184529/post-2543914

Unfortunately almost all of my D12-3 stock is of those 2 date codes...

 

[Alan15578]

I *think* recently made D22s (and probably E26s) may be OK. Like 2022 or newer, preferably 2023. I recently fired a D22-4 with a 2023 date code that went well. It's the old nozzle erosion issue, and it seems to get worse the longer the motor is stored. Mine are indoors, constant temp, relatively low humidity. But 2020 motors have gigantic erosion problems, and the 2021s I've fired ended up with asymmetrical thrust causing scary skywriting. I'm having the same issues with 18mm Qjets, but some D16Js recently acquired as warranty replacements have rock hard nozzles. I hope that's a good sign for the future.

Hans.

Edit: I'll add that a 2 year old C18W had propellant swelling that nearly precluded igniter insertion. No, it wasn't the nozzle, as the restriction was above the nozzle. After I got the igniter in place, it didn't need the Qpick to hold it, as there was considerable friction inserting it.

What happens if you install the igniter upon receipt of the motor and let the grain expand around the igniter with storage age? Does it render the igniter useless, or cato? How long could it extend the useful storage life of the SU motor?

 

[4regt4]

What happens if you install the igniter upon receipt of the motor and let the grain expand around the igniter with storage age? Does it render the igniter useless, or cato? How long could it extend the useful storage life of the SU motor?

I don't think that would extend the useful life of the motor. White Lightning tends to absorb moisture, causing swelling, and eventually it becomes very difficult to ignite. If they aren't too bad, scraping the propellant can help a lot. With a Qjet, a small needle file could be inserted, but even a toothpick might help. I'd rather try that than keeping an igniter in place.

Hans.

 

[tsmith1315]

What happens if you install the igniter upon receipt of the motor and let the grain expand around the igniter with storage age?