Curious product placement

[BARX2]

My local hobby store (Hungate's) has always sold fuses alongside the Estes and Quest rocket motors. This seems odd to me and I've never asked anyone about it. Does this seem weird to you, too? Does anybody actually use fuses to ignite black powder motors? These look like the fuses used on fireworks, like cherry bombs and M-80's.

 

[cjl]

Considering that the motors actually include electric igniters, that does seem odd, and I can't think why anyone would abandon them for fuse...

 

[Ed Wagoner]

Hmmm seems to me when I was very young...the first time I ever saw a model rocket launched a fuse was used. It was a green fuse on a spool and you cut off what you needed. I had actually forgotten about that till I saw this post. I wonder if that was the norm...somehow I doubt it. I am guessing...ughhh late 70s?

 

[mwiggins367]

Fuses are now against the NAR safety code. So the placement of them next to the motors is not a good idea.

Ignition System. I will launch my rockets with an electrical launch system and electrical motor igniters. My launch system will have a safety interlock in series with the launch switch, and will use a launch switch that returns to the "off" position when released.

 

[sandman]

My hobby shop has the cannon fuse right next to the rockets.

The owner even reccomends that new rocket customers use it to launch rockets.

I gave up arguing with this guy. (the hobby shop owner) He knows a lot more than I do (he's told me this ).

This is the same guy that told me 3 years ago the the ATF was going to end the rocketry hobby in six months.

 

[fyrfytr310]

Originally posted by sandman
My hobby shop has the cannon fuse right next to the rockets.

The owner even reccomends that new rocket customers use it to launch rockets.

I gave up arguing with this guy. (the hobby shop owner) He knows a lot more than I do (he's told me this ).

This is the same guy that told me 3 years ago the the ATF was going to end the rocketry hobby in six months.

Well as long as he has decent prices his ignorance might be worth dealing with.

 

[RoyGreen]

Originally posted by BARX2
My local hobby store (Hungate's) has always sold fuses alongside the Estes and Quest rocket motors. This seems odd to me and I've never asked anyone about it. Does this seem weird to you, too? Does anybody actually use fuses to ignite black powder motors? These look like the fuses used on fireworks, like cherry bombs and M-80's.

That is, unfortunately, common. My old section's sponsor back around 1990 sold green cannon fuse next to the rockets. Of course, back then FSI motors came with a length of thermalite as their (electric) igniter. For a long time, we thought nothing of starting the main motor electrically, but then having that motor light thermalite fuses to ignite secondary motors at a later point in the flight. That was before ATF pointed out that thermalite was a controlled explosive.

Before G. Harry became involved with Orville Carlilse's invention, Orville *pre-installed* a fuse in his hand made Rock-A-Chutes. And Harry's own description of his first model rocket flight includes something like, "I lit the fuse and ran like heck."

 

[Barry in IN]

I'm a BAR as of about two months ago. As can happen, I got to the nearest hobby shop last.
I was thinking of this thread when I went in, wondering where the cannon fuse would be.

Right next to the rocket engines.

The front wall has a big window, interrupting wall display space. On the wall right after the window, are metal cannon kits for about one foot of wall space, then the rockets start. So, really, the fuses are directly under the cannon and their supplies. But the very next items to their right are the rocket engines.

Recalling my first rocket purchase in the early 70's...had I walked into a hobby shop, saw the rockets, then the engines, then the fuse...I might very well have come to the wrong conclusion.
It sure looks like trouble.

I was a new guy in a new-to-me place, making my first (small) purchase, so said nothing. This time. I've been stewing over it since, though, and will say something in the future I'm sure.

 

[shreadvector]

Call Estes with the store names and locations.

They may wish to do something to limit their liability having their prodcut sold with potentially dangerous fuse marketed by the store to customers.
Fuse is bad because you cannot stop it once it is lit. If the pad blows over or an aircraft appears, etc.

1-800-525-7561

 

[Barry in IN]

I'll mention it to the store first, but that's a good idea to keep in mind.
Thanks.

 

[Stefan_Jones]

There's a population of impatient lunks who just don't want to be bothered with the electrical ignition thing.

C'mon, you know the type:

"Safety code?" >>>Liquidy dimissive snort.<<<< "Heeeyyy! Why doncha putta M-80 innit?"

I have an uncle who flew a few rockets with his kids. It seemed natural, rockets being something like fireworks, that you'd "blow 'em off" with a fuse.

He also didn't see why he had to bother with this wadding stuff.

Neither his rockets nor his interest in them lasted long.

 

[jetra2]

OMG I know what you mean! Every single time I show one of my friends one of my rockets, all I hear is, "So when are you going to fill the nose with black powder, man?"

It's ridiculous!

Yeah, call Estes and give them the names and locations of those shops and get that fuse removed, or at least a sign that says, "FOR CANNON USE ONLY" in big bold letters placed on/near it.

Jason

 

[Countdown Hobbies]

We can still get the "estes" green fuses from one of our distributors... they even claim it is a current item... some people just dont know and it trickles down the line...

 

[quickburst]

I have used Cannon fuse to light many black powder rocket motors. I have never had a problem with it, and it's no more dangerous than an electric igniter. It works fine.

If you are not at a NAR sanctioned launch, cannon fuse is not against any safety rule. I fly on weekends at a few school yards from time to time. I have the school's permission and follow their guidelines.

NAR and TRA safety rules are fine and should be used as a guideline for any rocketry related activity and adherence to the safety codes at sanctioned launches is a requirement.

I can assure you that neither NAR or TRA wants to enter a hobby shop and tell the proprietor where he can where he cannot display cannon fuse.

Non sanctioned or uninsured schoolyard launches are not governed by NAR or TRA rules.

 

[cydermaster]

In the UK, its not unusual to see the rocketry vendors selling pyro-fuse next to the ignitors. 'QuickMatch' is accepted as the most reliable method of BP cluster ignition. Heres a tutorial: https://www.rocketstore.co.uk/info/kb/kb_0001.aspx

 

[shreadvector]

You are confusing "NAR/TRA" rules with N.F.P.A. National Fire Code.

The NAR or TRA are not going to police anything in a store. Estes might report it to safeguard their product and avoid liability.

Violating fire regulations carries up to a $1000 fine and/or 1 year in jail in California for each offence.

You cannot stop a countdown or launch once the fuse is lit. That is why it is not permitted by the fire code.

Originally posted by QuickBurst
I have used Cannon fuse to light many black powder rocket motors. I have never had a problem with it, and it's no more dangerous than an electric igniter. It works fine.

If you are not at a NAR sanctioned launch, cannon fuse is not against any safety rule. I fly on weekends at a few school yards from time to time. I have the school's permission and follow their guidelines.

NAR and TRA safety rules are fine and should be used as a guideline for any rocketry related activity and adherence to the safety codes at sanctioned launches is a requirement.

I can assure you that neither NAR or TRA wants to enter a hobby shop and tell the proprietor where he can where he cannot display cannon fuse.

Non sanctioned or uninsured schoolyard launches are not governed by NAR or TRA rules.

 

[dcastle]

Originally posted by QuickBurst
I have used Cannon fuse to light many black powder rocket motors. I have never had a problem with it, and it's no more dangerous than an electric igniter. It works fine.

If you are not at a NAR sanctioned launch, cannon fuse is not against any safety rule. I fly on weekends at a few school yards from time to time. I have the school's permission and follow their guidelines.

NAR and TRA safety rules are fine and should be used as a guideline for any rocketry related activity and adherence to the safety codes at sanctioned launches is a requirement.

I can assure you that neither NAR or TRA wants to enter a hobby shop and tell the proprietor where he can where he cannot display cannon fuse.

Non sanctioned or uninsured schoolyard launches are not governed by NAR or TRA rules.

Violation of the NAR safety rules will void your NAR insurance coverage, will likely violate fire code laws in the many jurisdictions that have adopted the standardized rules pertaining to rocketry ... and it's just plain foolish. Using fuses to light model rocket motors is dangerous because it takes the control of the moment of launch out of your hands; it equates model rocketry to fireworks with most laypeople and the smoldering fuse is a serious fire hazard.

Why bother? Just use a standard launch controller, even -- and especially --- for school yard launches. After all, these launches are when you are most likely to have youngsters show up to watch the action. Do you really believe that you are doing the hobby any good when you are telling these kids through your actions that the safety codes don't really matter?

 

[Art Upton]

Originally posted by Ed Wagoner
Hmmm seems to me when I was very young...the first time I ever saw a model rocket launched a fuse was used. It was a green fuse on a spool and you cut off what you needed. I had actually forgotten about that till I saw this post. I wonder if that was the norm...somehow I doubt it. I am guessing...ughhh late 70s?

Hi Ed,

yes it was always sold next to the engines. And it was and still is used by many first time customers. Green Visco fuse is commonly sold in lots of hobby stores and like Countdown points out, still avalible from the distributors.

It is legal in many areas to use fuse to light off rockets, but not all. And most all those places that are NFPA, accept where Fred lives, do not enforce it.

One rocket field close by here is right next to a fire station, and I can count the few times I have seen a few folks light off a rocket with fuse next to it.

As for G.H.S., his first starter kits used fuse and I have his original 50's write up in Pop Mech with the picture of the kid using a incense stick to light the fuse while dad smiles with his pipe

The electric ignitors came to being because it made it easier for fire marshalls to accept as non-fireworks.

 

[Art Upton]

Originally posted by shreadvector
Call Estes with the store names and locations.

They may wish to do something to limit their liability having their prodcut sold with potentially dangerous fuse marketed by the store to customers.
Fuse is bad because you cannot stop it once it is lit. If the pad blows over or an aircraft appears, etc.

1-800-525-7561

Thats a real sure fire way to get the hobby store to quit selling rockets

 

[jflis]

Originally posted by QuickBurst
I have used Cannon fuse to light many black powder rocket motors. I have never had a problem with it, and it's no more dangerous than an electric igniter. It works fine.

If you are not at a NAR sanctioned launch, cannon fuse is not against any safety rule. I fly on weekends at a few school yards from time to time. I have the school's permission and follow their guidelines.

NAR and TRA safety rules are fine and should be used as a guideline for any rocketry related activity and adherence to the safety codes at sanctioned launches is a requirement.

I can assure you that neither NAR or TRA wants to enter a hobby shop and tell the proprietor where he can where he cannot display cannon fuse.

Non sanctioned or uninsured schoolyard launches are not governed by NAR or TRA rules.

I *really* don't want to get into this rat-hole, but this is incorrect.

Will Cannon fuse work in igniting rocket motors. sure it will.
Is it "no more dangerous than an electric igniter". Nope, flat out incorrect.

Cannon fuse used to igniting a model rocket motor is more dangerous. (fwiw, that is *why* it is in the safety code. They don't just make up rules cuz they sound good. There is data to back up its inclusion)

Once lit you can't stop the launch
Once lit you can't know when the launch will occur
Once the motor ignites there is a splattering of burning hot fuse remnants thrown onto the grass.

And with respect to law;
Once installed, it is no longer a "model rocket motor" and falls under the definition/rules of "fireworks"

Heck, i've even used cannon fuse in the past. Never ever did I consider it as safe as an electric igniter, because it isn't.

Ok, i'm going back to read mode
jim

 

[adrian]

Originally posted by cydermaster
In the UK, its not unusual to see the rocketry vendors selling pyro-fuse next to the ignitors. 'QuickMatch' is accepted as the most reliable method of BP cluster ignition.

That's a different situation to what's being described here. For one thing, those vendors aren't high street shops; they sell the fuses next to ignitors and motors at rocket events where people know what they're doing, and the vendors know the people who know what they're doing.

Also, Quickmatch is different to the "cannon fuse" mentioned above. If I understand correctly, the idea of the fuse is that you attach a piece to the motor, light it with a match or lighter, then get away before the motor ignites. If anything unexpected happens in the meantime, e.g. an aircraft flies over or someone's pet dog gets loose, you can't stop the launch.

By contrast, short pieces of Quickmatch are run from each motor in a cluster to a common point, where they meet an electrical igniter. The safety code is thus satisfied since an electrical igniter initiates the launch. And the point about Quickmatch is that it's quick - there isn't much of a delay between the igniter firing and the motors firing. This means there's no chance of an aircraft or pet dog going past while the fuse is burning, and is also significant in satisfying the safety code.

 

[quickburst]

Didn't mean to stir up the dust.

Lighting black powder motors with cannon fuse is safe. In the sense that it will effectively light the motor without undue stress on the rocket or the propellant. I agree it's not as controlled as electronic ignition. You guys are right, the launch can not be easily aborted.

Storing cannon fuse next to black powder motors is no more dangerous than storing igniters next to black powder motors.

"Violation of the NAR safety rules will void your NAR insurance coverage"
Should say "Violation of the NAR safety rules at NAR sanctioned launches will void your NAR insurance coverage." If it is an un-insured launch, NAR is not involved.

 

[shreadvector]

Once again, since there are plenty of children and adults who cannot read between the lines:

If you violate the fire code that allows your Model Rockets to be legal as Model Rockets in your city or state, you are now firing illegal fireworks.

Nobody on The Rocketry Forum should be advocating violating fire code.

Nobody on The Rocketry Forum should be confusing children (or easily confused adults) about the legalities of launching Model Rockets.

If Estes cares, they can pull their product from retailers and distributors who market fuse for use with the Estes products. They can probably even take stronger legal measures. Would this be a good use of lawsuits or restraining orders?

Originally posted by QuickBurst
Didn't mean to stir up the dust.

Lighting black powder motors with cannon fuse is safe. In the sense that it will effectively light the motor without undue stress on the rocket or the propellant. I agree it's not as controlled as electronic ignition. You guys are right, the launch can not be easily aborted.

Storing cannon fuse next to black powder motors is no more dangerous than storing igniters next to black powder motors.

"Violation of the NAR safety rules will void your NAR insurance coverage"
Should say "Violation of the NAR safety rules at NAR sanctioned launches will void your NAR insurance coverage." If it is an un-insured launch, NAR is not involved.

 

[dcastle]

Originally posted by QuickBurst
Didn't mean to stir up the dust.

"Violation of the NAR safety rules will void your NAR insurance coverage"
Should say "Violation of the NAR safety rules at NAR sanctioned launches will void your NAR insurance coverage." If it is an un-insured launch, NAR is not involved.

It's my understanding that NAR insurance covers you at your individual launches as well as at club launches (provided you are a member of the NAR). If you violate the safety code, your coverage is void.

 

[quickburst]

Originally posted by shreadvector
Once again, since there are plenty of children and adults who cannot read between the lines:

If you violate the fire code that allows your Model Rockets to be legal as Model Rockets in your city or state, you are now firing illegal fireworks.

Nobody on The Rocketry Forum should be advocating violating fire code.

Nobody on The Rocketry Forum should be confusing children (or easily confused adults) about the legalities of launching Model Rockets.

If Estes cares, they can pull their product from retailers and distributors who market fuse for use with the Estes products. They can probably even take stronger legal measures. Would this be a good use of lawsuits or restraining orders?

No fire code was violated, and I never suggested that anyone do so. Just because it's a violation in California doesn't mean it's a violation world wide.

It does seem to ruffle your feathers a bit. I suggest you call Estes and straighten this mess out.

I'll bow out.