Composite Warehouse leaving the hobby?

[Rschub]

If you are a cheap b*st*rd then you will always be dealing with marginal sellers happy to cut corners to get to your money.

 

[Banzai88]

I had the same thought. If CW charged 20-50% more but delivered quickly or only took payment when kits/parts were actually ready, they would have done a lot better. My own experience with CW was "okay". I got everything I ordered but it took awhile most of the time and involved a lot of checking in. If they come back, I hope they charge what they need to in order to run a smooth business.

20-50% more prices it out of the market, what with Wildman and Mac already filling the gap at the lower price point with more than equivalent quality. Lower wholesale price and availability of product is why MadCow contracted with Wildman as a supplier for the designs that they purchased from Composite Warehouse since CT could/would no longer deliver.

And if you're going to throw the 'colored fiberglass' curve ball, a can of spray paint and guaranteed delivery is a hellified bargain over 20-50% premium on price and all the CT induced headaches.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

20-50% more prices it out of the market, what with Wildman and Mac already filling the gap at the lower price point.

And if you're going to throw the 'colored fiberglass' curve ball, 20-50% markup over current prices is hellified more expensive than a can of spray paint and all the CT induced headaches.

I think it depends on the kit. Nobody sells conical cones, transitions and much of the true scale parts.

 

[Banzai88]

I think it depends on the kit. Nobody sells conical cones, transitions and much of the true scale parts.

True, no one else makes those parts.......and yet no one has ponied up to Tim with their $$ to share the costs of setting up to make said parts, nor has Tim done so himself.

Ultra niche parts in an uber niche hobby where simple economics rule. Evidence is many of the other motor manufacturers and electronics makers have fallen by the way side. One has to imagine that there's no flood of those conical/scale parts on the market, nor any rush to produce them, probably because there's not nearly enough demand to break even, and not like there's a secondary market if the rocket folks don't buy them.

And rocketry will survive

 

[TheTank]

If you are a cheap b*st*rd then you will always be dealing with marginal sellers happy to cut corners to get to your money.

I dont care about the price. Heck, one motor costs more than the kit these days in a lot of cases. Do some charge a premium, sure, but they also produce a great product. Product and design variety and quality is what I look for.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

I ordered a Nike smoke through a dealer and it came promptly and is high quality. Performance hobbies, Ken will take care of you. I never ordered with CW just because of all the horror stories, but I've seen the final product and it's definitely high quality, so my opinion is get it through Ken, and bonus you get to support another small business that actually shows up at launches! Win win.

If a dealer has it in stock, it's a good deal. However, if there's a missing or damaged part, all bets are off. Getting a replacement part is the a major problem. I did order from him last year and he called me. I said he had a reputation and I would post the response. The part arrived a week later and I posted then. Again here, he did fulfill my order but in most cases I'm willing to spend a little more and buy from elsewhere that has what I need in stock. Do not expect to get delivery of custom nose cones, etc. If you can't get them elsewhere, plan on 3D printing or somehow making a mold for hand layup.

 

[Lotronex]

True, no one else makes those parts.......and yet no one has ponied up to Tim with their $$ to share the costs of setting up to make said parts, nor has Tim done so himself.

This would be a great use case for crowdfunding. Tim figures out how much it would cost to make the mandrel and a short run conical cones in a certain size, say 3", then creates a Kickstarter. Easy way to make sure he doesn't lose money on a niche item.

 

[cbrarick]

you're missing the fact that there's no crowd that wants that. Banzai88 is right, a nitch product in a nitch market.

How can you get a crowd to fund something that there's no crowd to buy?

 

[r1dermon]

you're missing the fact that there's no crowd that wants that. Banzai88 is right, a nitch product in a nitch market.

How can you get a crowd to fund something that there's no crowd to buy?

There's a market for it. I looked all over, approached a vendor who told me there was no market for it, and then bought a smoke kit from a vendor who said they were hard to keep in stock...

 

[Banzai88]

There's a market for it. I looked all over, approached a vendor who told me there was no market for it, and then bought a smoke kit from a vendor who said they were hard to keep in stock...

Market for, and profitable enough to expand
into are two different things.

 

[r1dermon]

Market for, and profitable enough to expand
into are two different things.

Yes, that's very true. A crowd fund attempt would give a good idea of what kind of market may already exist though. To my knowledge something like that hasn't been done in the hobby. A special kickstarter kit or something along those lines.

 

[tsmith1315]

How can you get a crowd to fund something that there's no crowd to buy?

I hear three’s a crowd.

But better as a power trio.

 

[Banzai88]

Yes, that's very true. A crowd fund attempt would give a good idea of what kind of market may already exist though. To my knowledge something like that hasn't been done in the hobby. A special kickstarter kit or something along those lines.

One issue there is what happens quite often in tabletop gaming.....crowdfunding draws in the niche supporters, funding happens, everyone gets their stuff......and then the "market" that appeared to be there was only those that backed the project, and the game dies due to insufficient additional sales.

Still, in that case at least everyone would have their stuff and the producer shouldn't be out any money, so the approach has merit.

 

[r1dermon]

One issue there is what happens quite often in tabletop gaming.....crowdfunding draws in the niche supporters, funding happens, everyone gets their stuff......and then the "market" that appeared to be there was only those that backed the project, and the game dies due to insufficient additional sales.

Still, in that case at least everyone would have their stuff and the producer shouldn't be out any money, so the approach has merit.

One of my hobbies is high performance flashlights. There's a forum dedicated to budget performance flashlights, not the super expensive top of the market ones, but cheaper alternatives that are nearly as good. The forum approached several big manufacturers to get a super niche light produced for a certain price, and the very large manufacturer quoted a price for the light with 100 orders, 250 orders, 1000 orders...etc.

Point being that approach works, and would work for someone who approached a mass manufacturer of composites and figured out a cost per piece for a run of conical cones or other components not available off the shelf in the hobby. Thinking out loud here, those types of projects have been done in some of the other hobbies I've been involved in.

 

[Banzai88]

One of my hobbies is high performance flashlights. There's a forum dedicated to budget performance flashlights, not the super expensive top of the market ones, but cheaper alternatives that are nearly as good. The forum approached several big manufacturers to get a super niche light produced for a certain price, and the very large manufacturer quoted a price for the light with 100 orders, 250 orders, 1000 orders...etc.

Point being that approach works, and would work for someone who approached a mass manufacturer of composites and figured out a cost per piece for a run of conical cones or other components not available off the shelf in the hobby. Thinking out loud here, those types of projects have been done in some of the other hobbies I've been involved in.

~20K rocketeers in all of North America, about half-ish being HP certified, with maybe that many more on the rest of the planet of 8B people......with the parts your looking for/talking about being not only extremely specific, but of no other utility to anyone else on the planet.

Flashlights to toy rockets is truck parts to durian fruit.

But if you wanna start up the Kickstarter, I'll at least read your proposal.

 

[NTP2]

One of my hobbies is high performance flashlights.

Well that’s a new one, never heard of flashlights as a hobby!

 

[ecargmij]

I ordered a Nike smoke through a dealer and it came promptly and is high quality. Performance hobbies, Ken will take care of you. I never ordered with CW just because of all the horror stories, but I've seen the final product and it's definitely high quality, so my opinion is get it through Ken, and bonus you get to support another small business that actually shows up at launches! Win win.

I've been on a list with Ken for a kit that will never get made at this point.. he already had 6 other folks on the same kit list

 

[darrenf]

Well that’s a new one, never heard of flashlights as a hobby!

It can get quite pricey. Last Black Friday I spent over $600 for a model I've been wanting a while now. And of course late December they announced a newer one that outperforms the one I got!

 

[NTP2]

It can get quite pricey. Last Black Friday I spent over $600 for a model I've been wanting a while now. And of course late December they announced a newer one that outperforms the one I got!

That is description of every hobby ever.

 

[r1dermon]

~20K rocketeers in all of North America, about half-ish being HP certified, with maybe that many more on the rest of the planet of 8B people......with the parts your looking for/talking about being not only extremely specific, but of no other utility to anyone else on the planet.

Flashlights to toy rocket parts is truck parts to durian fruit.

But if you wanna start up the Kickstarter, I'll at least read your proposal.

Extremely specific or not, it's all about dollars and cents. There's plenty of Chinese composite fabs putting out very high quality products in niche areas these days. It's not like flashlights are a huge hobby for people, most people buy a Duracell or maglight at home depot or wally world for 20 bucks. Why would anyone want a 3x21700 thrower with a 5000k nichia 719A and a 6w driver? Could you find over a hundred people that would spend 150 or 200 on such a thing? Only way to know is to approach a legit manufacturer (many/most are Chinese anyway) like acebeam, sofirn, klarus...etc, and ask them what it would take to get a run of those together. That's how it worked with the flashlights, it's literally called the blf flashlight and there's been several done now.

I've been on a list with Ken for a kit that will never get made at this point.. he already had 6 other folks on the same kit list

I can only speak to my experience. I placed my order Jan 4 and it came in the mail this week (4" Nike smoke) I called him yesterday to order a 54/1280 Dr rocket case and he sent me tracking info maybe 2h later.

 

[r1dermon]

It can get quite pricey. Last Black Friday I spent over $600 for a model I've been wanting a while now. And of course late December they announced a newer one that outperforms the one I got!

Another heathen I see! Lol. My flashlight shelf is getting full. Need to build another one!

 

[darrenf]

That is description of every hobby ever.

Truth!

Here is a quick video comparing some enthusiast torches.. The SR32 is the one I purchased, the MS32 is the new one that is just now becoming available. Maybe next black Friday.

 

[cbrarick]

the problem is that the few people who would actually produce the nose cone are extremely busy already.
Going to them asking for a quote on something they don't the need to produce
The cost isn't just the cost of the mandrel and engineering but also in time to get the quote together and then review what comes back.
And if nothing comes of it you'd better believe that he will pay for it with increased costs on the products they are currently producing, as well as any future possibilities.

All for how much? Could they have done better doing other things or taking some time to themselves???

Crowdfunding sounds good in theory but falls apart when you don't have a motivated seller with a reasonably large market.
This is especially true in the case if Riderman is correct that there appears to already be a supplier.

 

[jmasterj]

the problem is that the few people who would actually produce the nose cone are extremely busy already.
Going to them asking for a quote on something they don't the need to produce
The cost isn't just the cost of the mandrel and engineering but also in time to get the quote together and then review what comes back.
And if nothing comes of it you'd better believe that he will pay for it with increased costs on the products they are currently producing, as well as any future possibilities.

All for how much? Could they have done better doing other things or taking some time to themselves???

Crowdfunding sounds good in theory but falls apart when you don't have a motivated seller with a reasonably large market.
This is especially true in the case if Riderman is correct that there appears to already be a supplier.

Opportunity cost can be a pain! But if you're asking for a quote, the seller/manufacturer should be including the opportunity costs in the quote, as they are individually irrelevant to the buyer.

 

[r1dermon]

the problem is that the few people who would actually produce the nose cone are extremely busy already.
Going to them asking for a quote on something they don't the need to produce
The cost isn't just the cost of the mandrel and engineering but also in time to get the quote together and then review what comes back.
And if nothing comes of it you'd better believe that he will pay for it with increased costs on the products they are currently producing, as well as any future possibilities.

All for how much? Could they have done better doing other things or taking some time to themselves???

Crowdfunding sounds good in theory but falls apart when you don't have a motivated seller with a reasonably large market.
This is especially true in the case if Riderman is correct that there appears to already be a supplier.

I think the biggest hurdle is actually getting commitments together on both sides. A number with minimum orders and a per piece price and a turnaround time from a supplier, and a group of interested parties that can pony up that minimum and afford to wait for it to ultimately deliver. Marketing ultimately dictates success, and with the proven track of wildmans ability to market and his reach in the hobby...seems a no brainer if there was going to be any action on a crowd fund attempt that he would be the guy to involve.

 

[Banzai88]

I think the biggest hurdle is actually getting commitments together on both sides. A number with minimum orders and a per piece price and a turnaround time from a supplier, and a group of interested parties that can pony up that minimum and afford to wait for it to ultimately deliver. Marketing ultimately dictates success, and with the proven track of wildmans ability to market and his reach in the hobby...seems a no brainer if there was going to be any action on a crowd fund attempt that he would be the guy to involve.

Well then, the self evident answer is to give him a call. He lists 815-638-3200 on his web site.

I will tell you, though, when I mentioned something very like what you're describing to him last Red Glare, he laughed at me and made a joke very like "To make $1M in rocketry, start with $2M".

Anxious to read the Kickstarter proposal.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

True, no one else makes those parts.......and yet no one has ponied up to Tim with their $$ to share the costs of setting up to make said parts, nor has Tim done so himself.

Ultra niche parts in an uber niche hobby where simple economics rule. Evidence is many of the other motor manufacturers and electronics makers have fallen by the way side. One has to imagine that there's no flood of those conical/scale parts on the market, nor any rush to produce them, probably because there's not nearly enough demand to break even, and not like there's a secondary market if the rocket folks don't buy them.

And rocketry will survive

If Curtis is doing this as a side project then having a small market is not a huge problem. My suggestion is to raise prices to a point where he is comfortable shipping when "actually ready". True he will get fewer orders, but he will at least sell some stuff on the side and hopefully make some decent money. I offer that advice to anyone. When you are in business, treating your customers, employees, investors, suppliers etc well is critically important.

 

[r1dermon]

Well then, the self evident answer is to give him a call. He lists 815-638-3200 on his web site.

Were on a medium for sharing ideas. I've shared mine. I also recently bought the nose cone I was after. Rocketry is not my business, I make my living elsewhere. But I'm a customer, and I buy what I want and what is available. Would be nice if we had more options as a hobby is all.

And to Alex's point...raise the prices. Lol. It's not rocket science.

 

[sharkbait]

Were on a medium for sharing ideas. I've shared mine. I also recently bought the nose cone I was after. Rocketry is not my business, I make my living elsewhere. But I'm a customer, and I buy what I want and what is available. Would be nice if we had more options as a hobby is all.

And to Alex's point...raise the prices. Lol. It's not rocket science.

I think the price raising would be in reference to his insanely stupid low prices on Black Friday or Wednesday Hump Day sales, trying to do low priced for high volume sales in a niche market is not a good practice for a business like CW.

I’ve tried and seen crowd and group buy attempts in rocketry and other endeavors, initial response is yeah yeah yeah then usually less than a third ever come through in the end.

Coming from a more scratch build earlier times, and not a 3D printer, if you really really want something that’s not available then make it yourself. It’s a lot of work to make a plug, a mold, do a lay up, but in the end it can be quite rewarding and I still get a big smile every time I look at my scratch 6”
Pershing

 

[cbrarick]

I think the biggest hurdle is actually getting commitments together on both sides. A number with minimum orders and a per piece price and a turnaround time from a supplier, and a group of interested parties that can pony up that minimum and afford to wait for it to ultimately deliver. Marketing ultimately dictates success, and with the proven track of wildmans ability to market and his reach in the hobby...seems a no brainer if there was going to be any action on a crowd fund attempt that he would be the guy to involve.

You just don't get it.
Why work to design, produce and market something you don't make right now? You act like he has unlimited time. He's allowed to eat, sleep, race his cars and do whatever else he wants vice spending 24 hours a day on rocketry.
Marketing alone doesn't predict success. The first step is to have something everyone wants (not just a few people). Then maybe you'll have something marketing can do something with. You'd never be able to sell ice at the south pole, regardless of the marketing.

You're best bet is to learn how to make one yourself. At least this way your energies would go to the goal and not to tilting at windmills