Clone Crusader Swing Wing Introduction and gauge of interest for a kit

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

dvdsnyd

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 9, 2012
Messages
453
Reaction score
271
Location
MN
Alright, I've waffled over this for long enough...
Over the last couple years I've been slowly putting together a Crusader Swing Wing clone.
Originally designed by Estes in the late 1980's, and only in the catalog for a couple years.

My dad had one when I was a young lad that I was obsessed over. The power pod was broken and he said it didn't work that great. Every time it flew the power pod fin would break off. I've heard of people having really nice glide performance with the glider, and always liked the shape of the nosecone.

I set out to clone it using the resources on JimZ's site, CAD, 3d printing and my CNC router.

I ended up almost completely re-engineering the wing pivot to make it easier to build and more reliable, eliminating the wooden dowel for a small metal threaded standoff.
I created a multitude of jigs from body tube marking jigs, a balance jig as well as an alignment jig for all the components of the power pod.
Many of the parts slot together to aid in alignment as well.
Numerous other improvements were made from the original kit to now, including making the wing larger to help with glide performance and making the power pod fin one piece, with a reinforcing basswood member, since this was where my dad's had broken.
I even went as far as creating some waterslide decal sheets, which is not an exact replica of the original kit. I took a little creative liberty here.

Here's a video of it flying:
Swing Wing Glider Flight

I was planning on grabbing a few more videos, but the flying season quickly came to an end in MN.
I flew the model 6-8 times this summer, with great success and the crowd always enjoyed it!
I was getting anywhere between 30-60 seconds of flight, with some of the better flights being in a little bit of breeze to help keep it aloft.

I am kicking around the idea of putting together some kits if there is interest.
Kits would be a full bill of materials from power pod parachute and engine hook to all the 3d printed jigs required as well as plywood and balsa components CNC cut.
Decal sheets included as well, everything to build the rocket to the pic below. Balsa components would more than likely be papered already since I get the best cut on the router this way. It also improves the finish and hasn't affected flight performance that I can tell.

I've worked up a roughly 20 page document of instructions, a little snippet is shown below.

The kit would not be inexpensive. There are 5 3d prints, 3 CNC cut sheet stocks and a multitude of other items on the bill of material like hinge tape for the elevators.
I'm thinking in the neighborhood of $80.

Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks,
Dave

1698439206982.png
1698439027061.png

1698439114563.png


1698438457729.png
 
I personally was never enamored with this design because it has nothing to do visually with a crusader except the nose cone and it always seemed kind of odd compared to the more graceful looking scissor wing transport. I understand the work and the prints that are going into this leading to the cost I just don't know how well that compares to something comparable like the scissor wing transport that's currently out there and if there's a market at that price point, just my thoughts. I think about this stuff a lot since I make RC Rocket glider kits and some stuff I make that I think is really cool just doesn't sell at all.
 
Last edited:
I personally was never enamored with this design because it has nothing to do visually with a crusader except the nose cone and it always seemed kind of odd compared to the more graceful looking scissor wing transport. I understand the work and the prints that are going into this leading to the cost I just don't know how well that compares to something comparable like the scissor wing transport that's currently out there and if there's a market at that price point, just my thoughts. I think about this stuff a lot since I make RC Rocket glider kits and some stuff I make that I think is really cool just doesn't sell at all.
Thanks Frank,
I appreciate your insight, especially given you make kits and sell them. I may be able to play with the price some, but it's difficult, given that likely there wouldn't be enough interest to buy anything in bulk to help lower costs. I'm stuck then buying at MSRP for the components and then adding all my overhead on top of it. I also want to give as much of an "authentic kit" feel as possible, given there is some nostalgia here with the kit being from the 80's. I also want people to mimic my success with the design as much as possible. I could offer short kits, but fear that could cause support issues, maybe not? Also, define "short" All the work is in the 3d printed parts and CNC cut components as is, so it isn't that much more to supply it all. Who also has a roll of blenderm to use for the elevators laying around? I'm also using a specific part from McMaster Carr for the wing pivot assembly. There's a bit of the backstory on why I mentioned in my first post that I've been waffling some :).
More than sell a ton of kits, I want to share it with others that would like the chance to build another one or their first. given the kit is also very hard to find, and the price on sites like Launch Lab have it listing at $136. Other than the authentic nose cone, I believe my tweaks and jigs make my version superior to the original.

Different people like different things, that's for sure. I've always really liked this design over the SWT. Dropping one of the 3 fins already in the standard 120 deg configuration leaves a nice V-tail aesthetic.
Given the NASA AD-1 timeframe and that there was a proposed oblique wing aircraft by NASA to use the F-8 Crusader as the test bed, see below pic as well as the links below talking about it never happening, I think Estes did a good job of mimicking it.

1698772401690.png
1698772456330.png
F-8 Crusader Oblique Wing Test Aircraft that Never Was

NASA AD-1
 
Thanks Frank,
I appreciate your insight, especially given you make kits and sell them. I may be able to play with the price some, but it's difficult, given that likely there wouldn't be enough interest to buy anything in bulk to help lower costs. I'm stuck then buying at MSRP for the components and then adding all my overhead on top of it. I also want to give as much of an "authentic kit" feel as possible, given there is some nostalgia here with the kit being from the 80's. I also want people to mimic my success with the design as much as possible. I could offer short kits, but fear that could cause support issues, maybe not? Also, define "short" All the work is in the 3d printed parts and CNC cut components as is, so it isn't that much more to supply it all. Who also has a roll of blenderm to use for the elevators laying around? I'm also using a specific part from McMaster Carr for the wing pivot assembly. There's a bit of the backstory on why I mentioned in my first post that I've been waffling some :).
More than sell a ton of kits, I want to share it with others that would like the chance to build another one or their first. given the kit is also very hard to find, and the price on sites like Launch Lab have it listing at $136. Other than the authentic nose cone, I believe my tweaks and jigs make my version superior to the original.

Different people like different things, that's for sure. I've always really liked this design over the SWT. Dropping one of the 3 fins already in the standard 120 deg configuration leaves a nice V-tail aesthetic.
Given the NASA AD-1 timeframe and that there was a proposed oblique wing aircraft by NASA to use the F-8 Crusader as the test bed, see below pic as well as the links below talking about it never happening, I think Estes did a good job of mimicking it.

View attachment 612878
View attachment 612879
F-8 Crusader Oblique Wing Test Aircraft that Never Was

NASA AD-1
Balsa machining really has the best prices on tubes, for blenderm I get them in bulk through a medical supply place but to get the price down and get free shipping you have to order 6 or 12 boxes of 12 and then the price gets down to around a dollar a roll.
 
Balsa machining really has the best prices on tubes, for blenderm I get them in bulk through a medical supply place but to get the price down and get free shipping you have to order 6 or 12 boxes of 12 and then the price gets down to around a dollar a roll.
Thanks for the heads up on tubes.

I just bought blenderm on Amazon. Was just going to cut off enough for the kit...maybe an extra set and attach to the backside of some painters tape.
My original point with the blenderm isn't so much my cost, but the cost of I make a short kit and don't include it. The customer then has to go get a 3 or 5 dollar roll of it, for which they will use 6 inches for this one project.
 
Really nicely done. Its a classic so I'd be interested even at that price.
were the wings really that short in the original kit?
 
Really nicely done. Its a classic so I'd be interested even at that price.
were the wings really that short in the original kit?
Thanks!
There's enough interest that I'll build a small batch of kits. May take a bit though.
Yes, the wings were actually shorter in the original kit - 11.5". I've lengthened the span by one inch.
 
I don't know if it helps this late in the game, but when I sent the kit to JimZ to scan he made a mold of the nosecone and sent back some foam nosecones. I'm not sure if he's still able to make those or not.
 
I modeled the nosecone mostly from pictures from @SCIGS30 build thread. He was also kind enough to send me a few other pictures which were really helpful. It's as close to a replication as I can get without having the real thing in my hand. Believe it or not, but the hardest part for me was adding the canopy lines. That task really taxed my CAD abilities.
 

Attachments

  • NC1.jpg
    NC1.jpg
    3.3 MB · Views: 0
  • NC3.jpg
    NC3.jpg
    3 MB · Views: 0
  • NC4.jpg
    NC4.jpg
    3 MB · Views: 0
  • NC2.jpg
    NC2.jpg
    3.4 MB · Views: 0
Alright, I've waffled over this for long enough...
Over the last couple years I've been slowly putting together a Crusader Swing Wing clone.
Originally designed by Estes in the late 1980's, and only in the catalog for a couple years.

My dad had one when I was a young lad that I was obsessed over. The power pod was broken and he said it didn't work that great. Every time it flew the power pod fin would break off. I've heard of people having really nice glide performance with the glider, and always liked the shape of the nosecone.

I set out to clone it using the resources on JimZ's site, CAD, 3d printing and my CNC router.

I ended up almost completely re-engineering the wing pivot to make it easier to build and more reliable, eliminating the wooden dowel for a small metal threaded standoff.
I created a multitude of jigs from body tube marking jigs, a balance jig as well as an alignment jig for all the components of the power pod.
Many of the parts slot together to aid in alignment as well.
Numerous other improvements were made from the original kit to now, including making the wing larger to help with glide performance and making the power pod fin one piece, with a reinforcing basswood member, since this was where my dad's had broken.
I even went as far as creating some waterslide decal sheets, which is not an exact replica of the original kit. I took a little creative liberty here.

Here's a video of it flying:
Swing Wing Glider Flight

I was planning on grabbing a few more videos, but the flying season quickly came to an end in MN.
I flew the model 6-8 times this summer, with great success and the crowd always enjoyed it!
I was getting anywhere between 30-60 seconds of flight, with some of the better flights being in a little bit of breeze to help keep it aloft.

I am kicking around the idea of putting together some kits if there is interest.
Kits would be a full bill of materials from power pod parachute and engine hook to all the 3d printed jigs required as well as plywood and balsa components CNC cut.
Decal sheets included as well, everything to build the rocket to the pic below. Balsa components would more than likely be papered already since I get the best cut on the router this way. It also improves the finish and hasn't affected flight performance that I can tell.

I've worked up a roughly 20 page document of instructions, a little snippet is shown below.

The kit would not be inexpensive. There are 5 3d prints, 3 CNC cut sheet stocks and a multitude of other items on the bill of material like hinge tape for the elevators.
I'm thinking in the neighborhood of $80.

Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks,
Dave

View attachment 612234
View attachment 612231

View attachment 612232


View attachment 612230
Great minds think alike! Love the pop pod that jettisons the ventral rocket fin from the glider.

it’s a nice technique for adding tail fin surface area on boost that you don’t want or need on glider.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...w-sr-73-raven-glider-and-new-gyskelion.38883/
 
More Crusader Swing Wing action... CNC Router has been busy too. Papered balsa routed out parts. Don't worry about the fuzzies. They clean up really easy with a sanding block. On mine, I sealed the paper with thin CA. This makes finishing everything really easy and prevents warps. The paper is definitely a sin when regarding high performance gliders given it adds some weight, but I've had really good luck with it on this kit and it makes routing on the CNC and finishing much easier. I also increased the span an inch, which has helped offset the weight addition a lot too.
 

Attachments

  • CNC Parts.jpg
    CNC Parts.jpg
    1.6 MB · Views: 0
I modeled the nosecone mostly from pictures from @SCIGS30 build thread. He was also kind enough to send me a few other pictures which were really helpful. It's as close to a replication as I can get without having the real thing in my hand. Believe it or not, but the hardest part for me was adding the canopy lines. That task really taxed my CAD abilities.
The nosecone looks great, amazing that you were able to model that from pictures. I have a Crusader Swing Wing kit, except the nosecone was missing when I got the kit. So have a kit but no nosecone to compare yours against. Looks like some great work.
 
The nosecone looks great, amazing that you were able to model that from pictures. I have a Crusader Swing Wing kit, except the nosecone was missing when I got the kit. So have a kit but no nosecone to compare yours against. Looks like some great work.
Thanks!
Bummer your kit didn't come with one of the most important parts of the kit!
I sent you a PM about getting you a nosecone.
Dave
 
If anyone wants a nosecone, send me a PM. $20 shipped.


Kit update
I did a small production run of 10 kits.
Have all the major components cut/3d printed and packaged.

Only things left - finalize the instructions and get the decals printed and sealed. Should have 10 kits ready end of next week.
Price will be $85 plus $10 shipping.

Thanks,
Dave
 
I've finally got a small batch of kits available!
$90 shipped, continental US.
Shoot me a PM if you would like one!
Please include your mailing address and your email.
Depending on how well these sell, I may be inclined to make another batch.
Here's a video of a little unboxing.

Unboxing video
 

Attachments

  • 1703128120110.png
    1703128120110.png
    1.7 MB · Views: 0
I finished building Dave's kit, but I still need to paint, finish the nose cone, and balance. It is too cold here to paint now. The 3D printed jigs helped enormously and the instructions are very good. This was a lot of fun to build.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2207.JPG
    IMG_2207.JPG
    1.1 MB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2208.JPG
    IMG_2208.JPG
    1.9 MB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2209.JPG
    IMG_2209.JPG
    1.5 MB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2210.JPG
    IMG_2210.JPG
    1.9 MB · Views: 0
I finished building Dave's kit, but I still need to paint, finish the nose cone, and balance. It is too cold here to paint now. The 3D printed jigs helped enormously and the instructions are very good. This was a lot of fun to build.
Awesome! Thanks for sharing! Looks great!
 
Just wanted to share that I've got about 5 more kits available for immediate shipment. $90 shipped.
Let me know if you have any questions!
Thanks!
Dave
 
Really great work with these! Hilarious landing on that video at the top. I made an Estes one once upon a time; yours flies a little better.

The ejecting power pod with ventral fin plus elevator actuation technique seems like it could be perfect for a boost glide X-15 model, since on the real thing the lower portion of the ventral fin dropped off (on a parachute!) before landing. Wonder whether anyone has done that.
 
Really great work with these! Hilarious landing on that video at the top. I made an Estes one once upon a time; yours flies a little better.

The ejecting power pod with ventral fin plus elevator actuation technique seems like it could be perfect for a boost glide X-15 model, since on the real thing the lower portion of the ventral fin dropped off (on a parachute!) before landing. Wonder whether anyone has done that.
Thanks! Haha, yea, you can see evidence of the damage from hitting the pole in some of the pictures. It took it surprisingly well.

Interesting idea about the X-15. I've always wanted one of Frank Burke's (@burkefj) X-15's. He runs the company Dynasoar Rocketry. Does some amazing things.
 
Interesting idea about the X-15. I've always wanted one of Frank Burke's (@burkefj) X-15's. He runs the company Dynasoar Rocketry. Does some amazing things.
Indeed!

On the X-15, an alternative to elevator actuation could be to instead have the ejecting power pod take away the nose weight differential needed to convert from stable rocket to stable glider.
 
Back
Top