C6-5 Launch Failures

[thecapotc]

All, Looking for help or ideas. Went to finish out some 4H launches and could not get C6-5s to go.

Using the following:
Estes Electron Beam Controller - Controller confirmed good by previous launches (between 4 and 8), and 2 launches today of A8-5 and B6-4
AA batteries - were new between 4 and 8 launches ago, used for 2 launches and all the C6-5 attempts today
C6-5s - Were part of a bulk pack that had previously launched 8 other rockets with no problems. Today 4 different ones wouldn't go
Igniters - From the same Estes bulk packs

I checked for crossed wires/leads, igniter fully inserted, plug fully inserted, and that I had the batteries in correctly (found that one when the safety light wasn't glowing good).

I'm stumped. I have other launch controllers and batteries to bring to more launches later today, I just packed light thinking that these last 5 launches would go smooth, because every time you have to get something done the day before it's due it always goes perfectly

Any insights in to what I should check/do differently later today would be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks
Cappy

 

[kuririn]

Were the contact surfaces on your micro clips clean?
I bring a small sheet of sandpaper or an emery board with me in my range box.
Exhaust residue can foul clips in no time.

 

[thecapotc]

Just double checked and still nice and shiny ... I'm leaning towards the crappy batteries not having enough juice right now.

 

[Hobie1dog]

never a problem at club launches with good voltage/current.

 

[mh9162013]

This might apply to your situation:

 

[thecapotc]

I've utilized a couple of the tips in there but I'll be adding the clip cleaning and better loop forming. My loops are usually a little lopsided. My spreading of the leads in the nozzle is also less refined.

Thanks for the video.

 

[BEC]

The other thing to check for, especially if you've burned multiple igniters trying to get the motor to go is some clay from the nozzle-forming process blocking the igniter from touching the fuel (black powder). A 3/32 drill bit, in your fingers, can be used to clean that up. Just spin the bit against where the fuel should be and then turn the motor over and empty whatever comes out in your hand. When it's good and black, the motor is cleared up.

Since all Estes BP motors use the same fuel, the fact that the ones that weren't going were C6-5s rather than the others you flew is purely coincidental.

Anything other than good quality AA cells (i.e. don't use off brands from Harbor Freight or the dollar store, but real Duracells or Evereadys) are also problematic.

 

[BABAR]

You have probably already checked, but as silly as it sounds, I have at least once loaded a used BP motor. I think I figured it out after the third igniter failed.

 

[thecapotc]

We were back at it with a different controller (Rayovac Ever Ready or whatever name brand is black and silver) and I took a little more care loading the igniters. I noticed on two of the engines there was something restricting it that needed to be pushed past.

Everything went off this time including an extra C6-5 and B6-4 I didn't prep so I'm leaning towards the batteries were shot (not sure where they came from but didn't recognize the brand) or I got sloppy with igniters.

Either way we finally got the last 5 4H launches in the day before submitting everything.

Now it's time to finish the fundraiser rocket and then I can get back to building my own rockets.

 

[86mustang408w]

I've been having issues with Estes ignitors specifically the ones I got recently from Hobby Lobby motor kits. Could be that. Heres what I use for igniton..

 

[PDawg]

The Estes Electron Beam launch controller with 4 AA batteries has been absolute underpowered Junk for at least 40 years and has caused many to leave the Hobby (including myself for a few decades). The upgraded Estes Pro Series controller that uses 6 C Batteries will pay for itself quickly as a set of batteries lasts for 100s of launches instead of just 3 to 8 launches. I'm thinking of buying a second one for club launches, if I see someone pull out an Electron Beam I'll be ready to walk it over. I can't stand that look when the button is pushed and nothing happens. If anyone wants an Electron Beam controller, I have 3 or 4 that I'll give away for free. Then again, I should probably throw them away.

 

[Back_at_it]

The Estes Electron Beam launch controller with 4 AA batteries has been absolute underpowered Junk for at least 40 years and has caused many to leave the Hobby (including myself for a few decades). The upgraded Estes Pro Series controller that uses 6 C Batteries will pay for itself quickly as a set of batteries lasts for 100s of launches instead of just 3 to 8 launches. I'm thinking of buying a second one for club launches, if I see someone pull out an Electron Beam I'll be ready to walk it over. I can't stand that look when the button is pushed and nothing happens. If anyone wants an Electron Beam controller, I have 3 or 4 that I'll give away for free. Then again, I should probably throw them away.

Completely agree with Pete here. The stock controller is only useful if it has brand new quality batteries. Don't buy the cheap batteries and expect it to work. Even with good batteries you might get 15 launches before they need to be replaced.

The Estes Pro Series controller is a great upgrade for very little money and it is all enclosed in one handheld unit. If you're comfortable using them and already have a charger, you can use a 3S LiPo battery pack in the controller. This will easily launch 3 and 4 motor clusters and any Composite motor I would every want to fly. I charged my 3S 1000mah pack at the beginning of the season and haven't needed to charge it again since. I checked the voltage after this weekends launch and the pack is still showing 12.1 volts.

One other piece of advise is to ditch the stock flat clips that come on the Electro and Pro Series for a real pair of alligator clips with teeth. Makes hooking up the ignitors much easier.

As for the igniters themselves. They are not great. Even the new ones are troublesome and the older clear/white tipped versions were out right junk. The fix is an easy one. Get some Testors Silver model paint and dip the tip in the paint and let i dry for a day. Misfires are almost non-existent for me now.

 

[allensmith]

never a problem at club launches with good voltage/current.

Not so sure. At the club launch in Dalzell a few weeks ago, Perrin and I cycled the same pair of rockets three times before moving on to completely different ones. Both had C6-5s in them and wouldn’t launch for anything. This thread gives me a lot to think about.

 

[smstachwick]

Dumb question, but did you visually inspect the motors to make sure they were loaded? Occasionally even Mabel makes mistakes.

After a couple burned ignitors with no starts on a A8-3 motor, I figured out why. There was NOTHING in the casing above the clay nozzle. No wonder the igniters didn't do anything - nothing to ignite! Does this happen often?View attachment 579473

 

[mh9162013]

I've had great luck with the Estes Electron Beam Controller. Maybe it's because I use rechargeable lithium AA cells, though.

@PDawg : you seriously willing to give away your Electron Beam Controllers? If so, what versions do you have?

 

[PDawg]

I've had great luck with the Estes Electron Beam Controller. Maybe it's because I use rechargeable lithium AA cells, though.

@PDawg : you seriously willing to give away your Electron Beam Controllers? If so, what versions do you have?

A couple of the orange ones, maybe a black one from a Start Wars kit.

 

[mh9162013]

A couple of the orange ones, maybe a black one from a Start Wars kit.

Do the orange ones use 9V batteries?

 

[brockrwood]

Were the contact surfaces on your micro clips clean?
I bring a small sheet of sandpaper or an emery board with me in my range box.
Exhaust residue can foul clips in no time.

+1 on this suggestion

 

[Kboom79]

All, Looking for help or ideas. Went to finish out some 4H launches and could not get C6-5s to go.

Using the following:
Estes Electron Beam Controller - Controller confirmed good by previous launches (between 4 and 8), and 2 launches today of A8-5 and B6-4
AA batteries - were new between 4 and 8 launches ago, used for 2 launches and all the C6-5 attempts today
C6-5s - Were part of a bulk pack that had previously launched 8 other rockets with no problems. Today 4 different ones wouldn't go
Igniters - From the same Estes bulk packs

I checked for crossed wires/leads, igniter fully inserted, plug fully inserted, and that I had the batteries in correctly (found that one when the safety light wasn't glowing good).

I'm stumped. I have other launch controllers and batteries to bring to more launches later today, I just packed light thinking that these last 5 launches would go smooth, because every time you have to get something done the day before it's due it always goes perfectly

Any insights in to what I should check/do differently later today would be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks
Cappy

More information will help others give you advice. "could not get C6-5s to go" - what do you mean exactly? Did you lose continuity after the launch attempt? Did the igniter burn out but the motor didn't start? Igniter didn't burn, still shows continuity after launch attempt? So you successfully launched two rockets on this last attempt? Were those launches before the C6-5 attempts?

 

[thecapotc]

More information will help others give you advice. "could not get C6-5s to go" - what do you mean exactly? Did you lose continuity after the launch attempt? Did the igniter burn out but the motor didn't start? Igniter didn't burn, still shows continuity after launch attempt? So you successfully launched two rockets on this last attempt? Were those launches before the C6-5 attempts?

I think we have solved it but we had continuity, but were not getting ignition. Some of the igniters looked like they burned and some didn't. I think the main culprit was crappy batteries in the controller. There might have been a little constriction/clay in the nozzle as a couple of the engines had a definite barrier to push through when inserting the igniter.

Our second launch session of the day after a break from from the sun we were more deliberate with igniter insertion and got 4 launches plus another 2 with engines from different packs that went just fine.

I'm now wondering whether I should bust out my soldering iron and build a launch controller or just buy a nicer one.

 

[PDawg]

Do the orange ones use 9V batteries?

No, 4 AAs and they must be very fresh and a premium brand.

 

[brockrwood]

The other thing to check for, especially if you've burned multiple igniters trying to get the motor to go is some clay from the nozzle-forming process blocking the igniter from touching the fuel (black powder). A 3/32 drill bit, in your fingers, can be used to clean that up. Just spin the bit against where the fuel should be and then turn the motor over and empty whatever comes out in your hand. When it's good and black, the motor is cleared up.

Since all Estes BP motors use the same fuel, the fact that the ones that weren't going were C6-5s rather than the others you flew is purely coincidental.

Anything other than good quality AA cells (i.e. don't use off brands from Harbor Freight or the dollar store, but real Duracells or Evereadys) are also problematic.

+1 Some clay covering the black powder was my first thought.

 

[Chris in Idaho]

My boys and I had a launch this evening. Maybe coincidence but our one hang up was on a C6-5. On the third try I spent a few extra seconds poking and twisting the igniter and it finally went "thunk" in deeper than the first two had. I think the clay nozzle had a burr. Lit just fine that third time.

 

[Blast it Tom!]

I'm now wondering whether I should bust out my soldering iron and build a launch controller or just buy a nicer one.

Here's some inspiration. There's a 12 V tractor battery in there. The grandkids love it and all the LED's function. It uses an automobile type ignition switch.

 

[Blast it Tom!]

And one more:

 

[neil_w]

For about $30 the Estes PSII launch controller will perform very well with 6 good C batteries. Stick a LiPO in there and you'll be able to ignite anything.

Having a good strong launch controller is definitely a key ingredient in creating an enjoyable launch experience.

 

[86mustang408w]

For about $30 the Estes PSII launch controller will perform very well with 6 good C batteries. Stick a LiPO in there and you'll be able to ignite anything.

Having a good strong launch controller is definitely a key ingredient in creating an enjoyable launch experience.

I posted that above, I think that is many guys issues I've seen is they don't have a good enough power supply. I have 12 volt-750 amp jump pack I use, it has never failed to set one off. But also lately I was having issues with Estes ignters and the Estes launch controller with the ones that come in motor packs from Hobby Lobby(I'm gonna guess its all Estes igniters just not Hobby Lobby). Not anymore.

 

[John Taylor]

All, Looking for help or ideas. Went to finish out some 4H launches and could not get C6-5s to go.

Using the following:
Estes Electron Beam Controller - Controller confirmed good by previous launches (between 4 and 8), and 2 launches today of A8-5 and B6-4
AA batteries - were new between 4 and 8 launches ago, used for 2 launches and all the C6-5 attempts today
C6-5s - Were part of a bulk pack that had previously launched 8 other rockets with no problems. Today 4 different ones wouldn't go
Igniters - From the same Estes bulk packs

I checked for crossed wires/leads, igniter fully inserted, plug fully inserted, and that I had the batteries in correctly (found that one when the safety light wasn't glowing good).

I'm stumped. I have other launch controllers and batteries to bring to more launches later today, I just packed light thinking that these last 5 launches would go smooth, because every time you have to get something done the day before it's due it always goes perfectly

Any insights in to what I should check/do differently later today would be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks
Cappy

Have you tried firing an igniter in the air?
If it fires in the air then it is problably the operator error. You might try using a drill bit by hand to freshen up the BP propellant. If it does not work in the air then your problem is with the controller. Insure the clips are clean, fresh batteries each launch ( probably not needed but it will eliminate that possibility.
Hold down the button and you should see you have continuity with the red light on. When installing igniter hold the model upside down. Insure the wires near the end are not touching inside under the plug.
Practice with one or two igniters in air.
If you have the funds and you want to insure ignition every time, use Magnalite pyrogen. Dip the tip in the pyrogen, let dry and when used it will produce a tiny ball of fire at 5400degF. It will light a brick. Rocketflite.com.