Black Powder vs. CO2 system: when & where?

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dr wogz

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A few questions on some unfamiliar tech: CO2 systems.

I've recently just read a few student reports; Spaceport type launches. And a lot are using a CO2 system instead of the tried & true Black powder charge. Some have stated that BP is unreliable at 10K feet. Is this true?

Are there advantages to a CO2 system over BP & e-match? Disadvantages?

To me, they seem overkill [for a 10Kfeet flight], as I've never really seen one in action.

I have no experience with these, and want to know more..
 
BP "should" be reliable at 10Kft without confinement. Above that, or maybe above 15Kft you'd want to start confining it so it's within something close to 1atm when you ignite it for reliable ignition. Lots of discussion on this topic in the past.
CO2 systems should theoretically work better the higher up you deploy as the pressure differential between ambient and internal is increased.

TP
 
Remember to consider the ground elevation when deciding if BP needs to be contained. Spaceport America (and other NM and SW launch sites) are at about 4000-5000ft. A 10K AGL flight sees 15K MSL.

There are threads here that discuss high-altitude use of BP and the various ways of containing it. CO2 is more expensive to get started with, but somewhat less tricky.
 
For me CO2 systems are nice because the laundry doesn't get scorched and the airframes dont have much if any powder residue on them. As for altitudes, I have never flown high enough...yet...to worry about it, but my Rousetech CDD3 systems have specific instructions for above 20k flights and how to prep the actuator.
 
Love how these teams go down a rabbit hole based on hearsay.............

Well, that's exactly why I ask!

I've never really seen or heard of many of the higher power people who regularly push the 10K line suddenly switching to an alternate to BP.. namely using a CO2 system..


CO2 and Tender-Descenders seem common in student projects.. As well as fancy [complicated] fin cans & head end motor retention..
 
Well, that's exactly why I ask!

I've never really seen or heard of many of the higher power people who regularly push the 10K line suddenly switching to an alternate to BP.. namely using a CO2 system..


CO2 and Tender-Descenders seem common in student projects.. As well as fancy [complicated] fin cans & head end motor retention..
You nailed it.
The most experienced person I know with respect to high altitude multistage flights is Jim Jarvis. He does them safely year after year, and he got there by starting smaller and working up incrementally, testing one or two new things with each flight and keeping what has worked. I would study his threads on TRF. He never uses head end ignition. He makes BP work consistently. He thinks everything through instead of jumping on some bandwagon and he is very methodical.
 
FWIW, there's not a sharp dividing line to where BP works and doesn't work, even without extra preparation. It becomes less effective the higher you go, but this can be mitigated by sealing it thoroughly (surgical tubing method for example). I like to use CO₂ systems for the apogee events, but they take more space and longer to prep.
 
Well, that's exactly why I ask!

I've never really seen or heard of many of the higher power people who regularly push the 10K line suddenly switching to an alternate to BP.. namely using a CO2 system..


CO2 and Tender-Descenders seem common in student projects.. As well as fancy [complicated] fin cans & head end motor retention..
Complicated usually because they are inexperienced,still in college, and haven't yet learned what they don't now or need. My $.02 of course.
 
Complicated usually because they are inexperienced,still in college, and haven't yet learned what they don't now or need. My $.02 of course.

And that's why these types of competitions are starting to "demand" L2 & L3 mentors for the teams!! :D

One reason at least!
 
You nailed it.
The most experienced person I know with respect to high altitude multistage flights is Jim Jarvis. He does them safely year after year, and he got there by starting smaller and working up incrementally, testing one or two new things with each flight and keeping what has worked. I would study his threads on TRF. He never uses head end ignition. He makes BP work consistently. He thinks everything through instead of jumping on some bandwagon and he is very methodical.
Thanks Steve! By the way, I did use head-end ignition in 2019 with no other choice available, and will use it again this year.

If a charge is reasonably contained (i.e., a hard-sided container covered with tape or the like), then I tell people to increase the amount of BP they use by perhaps 30-50% at a 30K altitude. But, this is obviously an approximation based on experience.

I DO NOT tell people to use surgical tubing charges as they do not work at altitude unless the volume that they are in is small, which is often the case. However, testing shows that these charges do not work if the volume of the airframe is more than the very minimum. The developer of the technique, Tony A, agrees with this and has developed an alternative approach that does work. You can find his description of it here on TRF.

The method that I use is relatively simple. It's chief advantage is that 100% of the powder burns regardless of the altitude. Therefore, whatever happens in a ground test is what will happen at altitude - any altitude. The chief disadvantage is that the charge is very energetic (because all of the powder burns very quickly). I call it deployment by shotgun, and that's the feature Tony was trying to improve on with his design. But what I do works fine as long as you design accordingly. I wrote an article about the method some years back that I've posted on TRF many times, but it's been a year or so, so here it is again. I've used this on something like 10 flights above 50K, with 5 of them above 100K, and they are very reliable. I would always advise ground testing of any particular design.

One change or clarification of the information in the article is that the ematch should be placed on top of the powder and not at the bottom of the charge. This is particularly important for larger charges.

Jim
 

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  • Article on high altitude deployment charges_May 2013.pdf
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I agree with Jim. The latex tubing charges do not work 100% of the time. I think it has to do with how much empty space there is in the deployment bays. There are people who use latex tube charges with no problems..but they understand the issues.

Latex 244K apogee 2.jpg

I played around with Jim's method and in his write up he calls them VERY ENERGETIC...and yes they are. I wanted to maintain the method...which is similar to a guns barrel. The longer the barrel the more of a chance for the BP to burn. The other thing has to do with the ematch placement. Place the ematch on the bottom of the BP and it blows it away from the flame. Place the ematch on top of the pile of BP and the BP has to pass that wall of fire.

The below video shows what happens to the BP with the ematch on the bottom of the BP


Here is what happens with the ematch on top of the BP..


Both videos compliments of Rocket Junkies..

So this is what I came up with..
vinyl tubing.jpg

The above charge is what I use in a 3" min dia..
parts...starting from the bottom...
Hot glue acts as a plug
dog barf acts as a chusion
.75 gram BP
ematch on top of BP
Dog Barf to hold things in place
Electrical tape to act as a strain relief for the ematch and to hold things inplace.

These charges made up this way are about half as violent.

v10.jpg



see attached word doc..
Tony
 

Attachments

  • Vinyl Tubing Charges.zip
    1.9 MB · Views: 24
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