I agree, that is another way to force a change. It's probably the fastest and most effective way actually, short of individual operators deciding to make changes. I still think politicians will become involved in this at some point. The economic impact from this event will be pretty significant and no politician is going to turn to the public and say, "don't worry, the insurance companies will fix this in underwriting."
Baltimore Bridge Collision and Collapse
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That's already happening, and was the source of the bulk of our contracts, and we had to get sign offs from the vessel owner (via the port engineer (contracts for the insurance folks)), the onboard Chief Engineer (for the vessel operator, who might be different from the actual owner), and the USCG before we got paid.
At the end of the day, there's a LOT of '......yeah, that's ok, we'll just deal with it' from all 3 of those entities when presented with a diagnosis of the problems that we found and the potential bill to 'bring within spec'.....and lots of conditional use sign offs. Any hour pierside not on- or off-loading cargo costs money as well. Sadly, that often factors into what will be paid for and what gets tolerated.
A review of the paperwork will most likely show if anything like that is the case.
boatgeek
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I think the real issue here is the amount of power required. While a battery can potentially work to provide tens of kilowatts for a couple of minutes, the technology to have a reasonably-sized battery bank that can do that has only existed for a few years, and is still subject to a lot of concerns about reliability and fire safety.
The problem is that the regulations are set by the International Maritime Organization, of which the US is one member of ~200. We do have a somewhat outsized voice, but there are also lots of competing nations who will see this as a one-off freak accident caused by a lack of maintenance (I'm pre-judging the investigation, but that seems like the likely outcome). We would likely need most of the EU plus probably China or Japan to come along with us and say that stricter rules are needed.
My experience is that won't happen to force significant changes in the emergency power setup like shortening the time between a fault and restoration of power. There aren't that many insurance syndicates for this size ship, and operators are very price conscious when choosing one. That includes both premiums and what the insurer requires. For context, years ago we were trying to work with insurance companies to get them to require that fishing boats have stability instructions ("follow these guidelines so you don't capsize") on board when the Coast Guard didn't. The insurance companies by and large weren't interested since they thought it would lose business.
Insurance companies requiring better maintenance of the emergency power system is another issue will likely happen, see @Banzai88 above.
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One of the retro-fit/update systems that we did to USNS ships was an main engineering UPS. Sometimes HUNDREDS of lead/acid or AGM batteries in dispersed cabinets throughout main engineering. Each requiring a monitor system. Each requiring a charging system. Each requiring a LOT of inspection and monitoring to ensure that they would work.
Read that as LOTS of $$$ and man hours. ONE dead unit, and all bets are off on it's proper operation. Most ships that we did engineering surveys on in the RFQ (request for quote) end of things showed that most commercial vessels' UPS, IF they had one, was decades past the last time it ever worked, and most were simply unsalvageable and needed wholesale removal and replacement.
Proper operation = main engineering(ONLY) power for key critical systems for like emergency lighting, intake damper control, fire suppression systems, and fuel flow, with the EDG relied upon for the rest of the ship. Real world operation, 10-15 minutes, tops. Real world cost? The last ship we did the overhaul on was the cheapest we had done in a decade on one of the smallest vessels, $2.2M and 18 days pier side.
NTP2
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Well from what I’ve heard from @boatgeek and @Banzai88 it seems that ship emergency systems are designed under the assumption that the things go wrong at sea not in the harbor, so you have time to get everybody together and such. It seems to me that if something does come of this that it should be the removal of that assumption, eg make restoring power only require 1 or 2 people job or other wise make the emergency systems fast and easy to operate.
But what do I know…
But what do I know…
I'm curious to know who is liable for damages here? I remember reading something about this in an article about the incident in the Suez Canal a few years ago. I'm assuming the operator of the ship is responsible. They likely had insurance but depending on what the investigation finds as the root cause the insurance company may not be liable if this was caused by improper operation or maintenance. In any case I don't see the operator or insurance company paying for this, they'll either file bankruptcy or find some legal loophole to avoid liability.
boatgeek
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The rules already say that all emergency loads should be online within 45 seconds, which more or less requires an automated system. The problem is how well automated systems continue to work in service.
The ship's insurance company will pay something. They have big enough pools of cash that they won't go bankrupt. If the pilot is partially at fault, the pilot's insurance may pay something. Nobody's insurance will pay the full cost of replacing the bridge and the economic damages from having the port closed for weeks or months.
I think the only way insurance may not pay out is if it was willful, if the helmsman was caught on tape saying that he was aiming at the bridge. Nobody is alleging that here, so I don't see that happening. Even so, each of these ships is owned by a separate corporate entity, so if one goes belly up, the rest of the shipowner's company doesn't go belly up too.
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While I agree, you're talking about potentially billions of $$ in labor and material costs alone to upgrade surface ships to aircraft standards, and everyone would have to buy into it. That would add significant cost to everything on each and every ship, and Jack and Jill public want $3 plastic trash from China and don't care about how that happens or who has to die. Witness the child labor that everyone turns a blind eye to for rare earth metals in the Congo that go into batteries for cell phones and cars!
In a world where it's cheaper to pay the insurance than to prevent the accident, the insurance folks are going to ask you, "Just how often does that happen?"
......or simply easier, faster and much cheaper to keep the tugs tied up until the ships are past critical navigation hazards.
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Is the ship's hull damaged, taking on water or sinking?
MClark
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Earlier they said the water is 50 feet deep.
Vessel finder says Dali draws 12.2 meters.
If these are correct numbers it’s in the mud already.
Vessel finder says Dali draws 12.2 meters.
If these are correct numbers it’s in the mud already.
The Sunshine Skyway bridge in Tampa Bay was struck by a vessel (in the 80s?) very similar to this recent incident. When they rebuilt the bridge protective barriers were added in front of the main piers of the new bridge to prevent a vessel from crashing into them. I do recall driving over the bridge and wondering to myself why other bridges didn't have these protective features.
BMcD
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<< to prevent a vessel from crashing into them>>
The engineer doing the energy calculations for that project needed a calculator with a lot of zeros.
The engineer doing the energy calculations for that project needed a calculator with a lot of zeros.
boatgeek
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Three guesses:
Cynical guess: They get removed during value engineering
Likely guess: Many of the bridges still in existence were built long before the Skyway Bridge disaster (Key Bridge construction started in 1972, eg), and it's really hard to fit barriers around the bridge piers while the bridge is in operation.
Another likely option: Adding the barriers would have encroached too much on the dredged channel, so they couldn't fit ships through.
It's definitely feasible. There were two ship assist tugs that helped the Dali off of the pier and through its U-turn to leave the harbor. They could have stayed with the ship for another hour. Oil tankers often get escorts, and LNG tankers definitely do. Adding containerships to the mix would be possible with a little lead time to build some tugs.
Would it work? Depends. For this particular failure where the ship lost power with the rudder mostly amidships and slowly steered over toward the bridge pier, almost certainly. It would likely also work if the ship lost propulsion power. It would not have saved the bridge if the ship needed to turn significantly or if power failed with the rudder significantly off centerline. Newton's laws would get in the way of that, since the ship would go well off of its planned track.
boatgeek
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Naw, just scientific notation. 1E8 kg traveling at 4 m/s...
Late 70s/early 80s Texas Instruments calculators were very good at adding lots of zeroes.
As others have said, the magnitude financially of this situation is huge. I'd say it is probably one of the biggest [edit: man-made] disasters in the history of the country. I mean:
-Loss of ~6 lives and some vehicles. The biggest tragedy in all this, but the smallest $ cost.
-Cost to remove bridge remains
-Cost to reconstruct the bridge including necessary redesign and all manner of certifications along the way
-Immediate costs of having the Port of Baltimore closed for some time, then later intermittent open/close delays during reconstruction
-Longer term impacts of the port closure including need to redirect incoming ships to other ports that are already near or at capacity, then work out alternative transportation methods for the goods. I believe PoB is the single biggest US importing port for automobiles. It's either the biggest or second biggest coal exporting port in the US
-Lawsuits against liable parties from everyone from people inconvenienced in their daily commute for years, to coal miner unions for people that lost their jobs due to the coal being now more expensive to export...
I was born and raised in Baltimore, and returned to the area for 5 more years during adulthood before moving away permanently for work. I drove over that bridge last time I was in Baltimore. This is just a shocking development that hits at the core somehow.
-Loss of ~6 lives and some vehicles. The biggest tragedy in all this, but the smallest $ cost.
-Cost to remove bridge remains
-Cost to reconstruct the bridge including necessary redesign and all manner of certifications along the way
-Immediate costs of having the Port of Baltimore closed for some time, then later intermittent open/close delays during reconstruction
-Longer term impacts of the port closure including need to redirect incoming ships to other ports that are already near or at capacity, then work out alternative transportation methods for the goods. I believe PoB is the single biggest US importing port for automobiles. It's either the biggest or second biggest coal exporting port in the US
-Lawsuits against liable parties from everyone from people inconvenienced in their daily commute for years, to coal miner unions for people that lost their jobs due to the coal being now more expensive to export...
I was born and raised in Baltimore, and returned to the area for 5 more years during adulthood before moving away permanently for work. I drove over that bridge last time I was in Baltimore. This is just a shocking development that hits at the core somehow.
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I had the exact same thought. Then I started wondering about a scale model to test the efficacy of the barriers...
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I think that the system is more robust than the paper or the talking heads would have us believe.
The Port of Norfolk has been under capacity for a decade, as well as Lamberts Point for coal, with rail infrastructure already in place for coal and automobiles. Local news is already reporting that operations are ramping up for the diverted incoming and outgoing cargo.
$3 crap will continue to flow.
boatgeek
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Well, that's a relief. Imagine if we couldn't get our $3 crap. Oh, the humanity!
boatgeek
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And that happened in about 15 seconds, so it was roughly a 40-50 MW event. That's a pretty respectable amount of power!
Still don't know how many are dead at the bottom of the river in cars plus the missing workers patching potholes are probably dead. Will likely take some time to get a death count. Kurt
My brother got paranoid some years ago and had a Katolight 40kw natural gas powered generator installed for the family home. Was afraid Com Ed was going to have roving blackouts in the heat of summer. Has a 231 cu. inch V6 engine in it. It tests itself once a week and is incredibly silent. He admitted it was overkill and he could have had a smaller generator. The thing is big and like a shed. Had to have a larger natural gas line brought up to the house too!
I was told by my mom, dad and brother there were a few blackouts during storms and power outages the generator came online in a second or two. It was that fast. Since it had the extra capacity, it wasn't overloaded by the electrical stuff that was already on in the house. Probably could have got by with a 20kw generator but it is what it is. It can power the house, all the lights, furnace and two air conditioners if need be. My dad had an electrician put outdoor outlets on both sides of the house lot and told the neighbors to use heavy duty drop cords to power whatever they needed during a blackout. I thought that was most
"neighborly". Kurt
MClark
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Google Maps shows the bridge having a toll.
The people using electronic pay there should be a record.
See who went on the bridge last.
The people using electronic pay there should be a record.
See who went on the bridge last.
boatgeek
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I am not in any way minimizing the tragedy here, particularly for the families involved. I do think that this incident pales in comparison to any of the major hurricanes on the Gulf Coast. Even on the maritime side, the Sultana disaster killed over 1100 people and the Texas City disaster killed at least 581 people and flattened the port.
boatgeek
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Also, texting with my kid reminded me of a Captain Technicality point. Because this was a ship hitting a fixed object, it's an allision, not a collision. In the official maritime world, collisions are between two ships.
DAllen
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If you watch the videos closely you can see the flashing yellow lights. That was almost certainly the pothole crew on the bridge and you can see the lights fall in the water when the bridge collapses. They never had a chance. Speaking as someone who works on highways all the time this is rather devastating.
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I was thinking the same thing. Require tugs until clear of the bridge.
I read there was a proposal to install protective structures around the pillars a few years back. Conclusion was: "too costly".
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