Back to the moon or aim for Mars?

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Not sure how that'd work (using the moons to break the velocity for a "straight drop" into the atmosphere... Not saying it CAN'T work, but man talk about an 1000 orbital mechanics experts dancing on the head of a pin...

Well, as for an ascent vehicle sitting on the surface, well, that's likely going to have to happen anyway. There's nothing that really is that complex about sending the telemetry back to Earth, and having a "mission control" room dedicated to watching over the MAV... Basically ALL the systems would have to be monitored and telemetered reports back to Earth, if only in "packets" of data as daily reading summaries. While the distance complicates telemetry monitoring of the MAV, condensed "packets" of data of various types, with commands to monitor more critical systems more closely if needed, perhaps in a rotating basis. Once the Mars vehicle arrives in orbit with the crew, presumably they'd be able to really do an in-depth checkout of all systems, since communications would be MUCH easier with a direct link to the MAV on the surface, instead of having to rely on the Deep Space Network receiving the signals on Earth. Basically they'd be monitoring the ascent vehicle until the last moment, and ENSURE that everything was operable.

There's ALWAYS going to be an element of risk... it's simply unavoidable. NOTHING this complex can be performed without risk. There was substantial risk on Apollo-- the LM ascent engine COULD NOT be test fired before the actual firing of it to lift off the surface of the Moon. The descent engine couldn't either, but if it didn't fire, it was simply an aborted mission-- do what you could from lunar orbit in a 'contingency mission", and then come home. Of course if the SPS engine didn't light on the Service Module, you were stuck in lunar orbit and just as dead.

Anyway, it's just one of many ways that a Mars mission can be mounted. It's not any more particularly likely to happen than any of the others, either. Of course there's going to be tradeoffs between safety numbers versus heat shield capabilities, etc.

Later! OL JR :)


Yes; any manned mission to Mars would have inherent risks and there are plenty of people who would gladly undertake those risks just as there are people who would understand that if those people were lost that while tragic it is not the end of the World and shouldn’t be the end of manned space exploration.

But those folks are outnumbered a Bazillion to one by the “Useful Idiot” crowd who are totally risk adverse. Except perhaps for driving under the influence. If a dozen or so astronauts whose lives have become more important than their own because of 24/7/365 news coverage were to die on live TV.

Look what the loss of those two shuttles and their crews did for our manned space efforts and by and large most people didn’t really know who those people were until after the fact.

Maybe China or Russia still has the mentality to go forward after such a tragedy but in today’s America?

As for that dance with the Martian moons is concerned. I read that article way back in the early ‘80s and all I can remember about it is that it basically involved a series of reverse “Slingshot” maneuvers in a sort of figure 8 pattern between the two moons and Mars itself.

It wouldn’t even be possible if Phobos wasn’t so close to Mars’ surface.
 
Yes; any manned mission to Mars would have inherent risks and there are plenty of people who would gladly undertake those risks just as there are people who would understand that if those people were lost that while tragic it is not the end of the World and shouldn’t be the end of manned space exploration.

But those folks are outnumbered a Bazillion to one by the “Useful Idiot” crowd who are totally risk adverse. Except perhaps for driving under the influence. If a dozen or so astronauts whose lives have become more important than their own because of 24/7/365 news coverage were to die on live TV.

Look what the loss of those two shuttles and their crews did for our manned space efforts and by and large most people didn’t really know who those people were until after the fact.

Maybe China or Russia still has the mentality to go forward after such a tragedy but in today’s America?

As for that dance with the Martian moons is concerned. I read that article way back in the early ‘80s and all I can remember about it is that it basically involved a series of reverse “Slingshot” maneuvers in a sort of figure 8 pattern between the two moons and Mars itself.

It wouldn’t even be possible if Phobos wasn’t so close to Mars’ surface.

Okay, that makes sense... gravitational mechanics is a wonderfully beautiful thing... conservation of momentum at its finest... :) Some of the gravitational "slingshot" maneuvers and "low energy corridors" between planets that have been proposed are truly amazing...

AS for " a colony off this rock" (as someone else posted), well, there's always Star Trek. If you're waiting for the US govt to do it, you'll be waiting a LONG time... "Terraforming Mars" is the stuff of idyllic sci-fi books... it would take hundreds if not THOUSANDS of years to accomplish, if it's even possible at all... We can't even sustain a RETURN TO THE MOON program for more than 6 years... how will you EVER get the commitment to do anything on such a long timescale??

Later! OL JR :)
 
Another problem with using an ascent stage that arrives and lands a year or so ahead of time and then makes its own fuel, is; do you really want to trust a bunch of hardware that has been sitting unattended on the Martian surface for a year or more to actually work?

I would say that you don't have to ship the entire ascent stage with whatever hardware is making the fuel. Just send a storage tank. You can store the fuel and periodically test the purity to make sure that it's what you'll need to get home, and bring your state of the art ascent stage years later when you finally arrive.
 
New show on Science Channel tonight 9:00 CT exploring the possibility of man living on Mars.
 
I am going to make one for colonizing the Moon too.

[video=vimeo;101423878]https://vimeo.com/101423878[/video]
 
Niether. Lets try to fix our own Planet before we go bringing our pathetic faulty Society to others.
 
There was a show on the Nation Geographic channel "ALIEN DEEP: INNER VS OUTER SPACE" produced by Dr. Robert Ballard which contrasted efforts to explore mars versus the benefits of exploring the ocean depths. We know less about the deep ocean then mars at this point. The show is well worth watching if you can.
 
One particular problem with mounting a Mars mission, in addition to the towering technological and operational obstacles, is that it is actually quite likely that a failure scenario would play out with an entire crew of astronauts condemned to death over a period of several months with no hope of rescue or escape, a spectacle which would probably kill forever any public support for such missions.

The grim advantage of lunar missions in such situations is that almost no matter what goes wrong, the crew would likely be dead within 2-3 days; the world wouldn't have to put up with the spectacle of daily updates or even countdown clocks for a hopelessly doomed crew over a time span of weeks or months. After the first few days when consumable rates would be fairly well determined, it would be possible to predict pretty accurately just when the crew was going to die.
 
The moon. Been too long since we have sent anyone out of Earth orbit.


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The Moon, because ultimately it's empire building, and our first outpost shouldn't be too far away.
 
Interesting topic you guys have going on. Is anyone aware of (said) pyramids on the moon? I wont validate this info, and as we all know, most of the info on TV and the internet is bogus. But there are numerous pics and such now available, which indicate that there were pyramids and even a robot head that was found there. All of which, was not included, in ANY reports we got, as a nation, but might be the reason Buzz Aldrin, ( I think ) said we need to return to the moon. There's reasonable enough evidence that superior life forms were here on earth with technology that was not present at the time. And just in case you didn't know it, I'm a true believer that there's a lot more going on that they, (government) will not disclose.

If this link doesn't give you immediate images, click on images and browse. Surely you'll find topics that are interesting.
pyramids on the moon apollo 17

May have to copy and paste......
 
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Interesting topic you guys have going on. Is anyone aware of (said) pyramids on the moon? I wont validate this info, and as we all know, most of the info on TV and the internet is bogus. But there are numerous pics and such now available, which indicate that there were pyramids and even a robot head that was found there. All of which, was not included, in ANY reports we got, as a nation, but might be the reason Buzz Aldrin, ( I think ) said we need to return to the moon. There's reasonable enough evidence that superior life forms were here on earth with technology that was not present at the time. And just in case you didn't know it, I'm a true believer that there's a lot more going on that they, (government) will not disclose.

If this link doesn't give you immediate images, click on images and browse. Surely you'll find topics that are interesting.
pyramids on the moon apollo 17

May have to copy and paste......

Why would a robot have a "head"? None of our exploring units do, although there are some plans for a wheeled centaur type rover, half car and half humanoid android.
 
The moon and a lunar orbital station. The moon is halfway to anywhere in Sol system.
Payloads boost from Earth to ISS. Transfer to a low thrust (ion?) lunar shuttle to the lunar orbital station. Transfer again to a lunar tug. Standardized payload boxes like semi truck boxes (probably a different shape).
The Mars missions will boost from lunar orbit. This stuff was thought out 60-70 years ago when we were barely LEO capable.
The VERY hard part is making the lunar station self-sufficient.
 
One particular problem with mounting a Mars mission, in addition to the towering technological and operational obstacles, is that it is actually quite likely that a failure scenario would play out with an entire crew of astronauts condemned to death over a period of several months with no hope of rescue or escape, a spectacle which would probably kill forever any public support for such missions.

The grim advantage of lunar missions in such situations is that almost no matter what goes wrong, the crew would likely be dead within 2-3 days; the world wouldn't have to put up with the spectacle of daily updates or even countdown clocks for a hopelessly doomed crew over a time span of weeks or months. After the first few days when consumable rates would be fairly well determined, it would be possible to predict pretty accurately just when the crew was going to die.

That risk was looked at during Apollo... there was always the possibility that the ascent engine on the LM wouldn't ignite, no matter what was tried... it was as simple a design as possible, and even manually operable by physically OPENING the propellant valves to the engine, with hypergolic fuels that ignite on contact with each other, but STILL, there was ALWAYS the possibility that astronauts might end up hopelessly trapped on the lunar surface.

In that situation, NASA had plans to, after exhausting all options, to simply terminate contact with the astronauts, from what I've read. Nixon even had a speech prepared to read in the event that Apollo 11 was trapped on the surface of the Moon. Once it was deemed absolutely hopeless, final communications with the families would presumably be allowed in private, and then the communications terminated... there would be no "live coverage" til the last gasp of the astronauts on some distant irretrievable location...

Similarly, if a Mars mission somehow had an explosion or was damaged to the point they could not return to Earth, and they were doomed, I would assume a similar 'contingency' plan would be in effect... once all options are exhausted and there's no chance, I would presume final private communications with the families would be allowed, and then the channels closed permanently. They would simply drift off through space to their fate. Same thing with an extended duration lunar crew or permanent lunar surface outpost crew who were 'doomed' and "irretrievable" for whatever reason.

I couldn't see NASA allowing the press to make a 'circus act' out of the astronauts final moments or hours or days or whatever merely for ratings... I'm sure they'd TRY it, but I think the PTB's would exert enough pressure on the FCC to ensure that whomever chose to try to flout that decision would find themselves in a VERY uncomfortable, and hence unprofitable, position. That would probably be enough to deter them... after all, it's all about ratings and "selling newspapers" so to speak...

Later! OL JR :)
 
The moon and a lunar orbital station. The moon is halfway to anywhere in Sol system.
Payloads boost from Earth to ISS. Transfer to a low thrust (ion?) lunar shuttle to the lunar orbital station. Transfer again to a lunar tug. Standardized payload boxes like semi truck boxes (probably a different shape).
The Mars missions will boost from lunar orbit. This stuff was thought out 60-70 years ago when we were barely LEO capable.
The VERY hard part is making the lunar station self-sufficient.

You wouldn't want to do that... ISS is a total distraction and we WON'T be doing ANYTHING substantial or sustainable in deep space until ISS is on the bottom of the Pacific... ISS simply costs TOO MUCH and it's a distraction from actual deep space missions. ISS is in the wrong orbit (inclination) to be of much use for a way-station or assembly or marshaling point for deep-space missions... the 51.6 degree inclination that was necessary for the Russians to be able to access it (well, for ANYBODY to be able to access it NOW) puts it too far "out of plane" to be of much use for deep-space missions... launching to that high of an orbital inclination also substantially reduces the payload capabilities of your launch vehicle as well just to get stuff into orbit and to the station. Any payloads departing from ISS to the Moon or elsewhere in the solar system, which is basically in the "plane of the ecliptic" upon which all the planetary orbits basically lie (with the exception of Pluto) would require an expensive "plane-change" maneuver which consumes vast amounts of propellant to achieve. Therefore, ISS has NO role in deep-space exploration except perhaps for long duration "simulations" or experiments and test over long duration of deep-space equipment and systems... and so long as ISS is flying, we simply DO NOT and WILL NOT have the money to do *anything* beyond perhaps a few "stunts" beyond LEO... it simply soaks up too much of the available funding.

No, if you want to send payloads to the Moon or Lagrange points (which are MUCH better locations to depart for Mars from, BTW... propulsion requirements are MUCH less than LLO. If you want to marshal those payloads in LEO and send them to the Moon via solar electric propulsion (SEP) or something like that (using low thrust long duration systems like Hall thrusters, ion propulsion, etc, which are unsuitable for manned missions due to 1) the long transit times required, eating up too much valuable consumables like food, water, and oxygen, and 2) multiple passes and long loiters in the Van Allen Radiation Belts as the thrusters slowly "spiral out" the spacecraft toward the Moon in an ever-widening Earth orbit, necessary to gain escape velocity over time, exposing the astronauts to too much radiation). If you want to do LEO assembly/launch of payloads to the vicinity of the Moon, then do it in 'stand alone' operations by having the launching payloads from Earth rendezvous and autonomously or remotely dock to the "lunar SEP shuttle" or whatever in LEO... If it's necessary to physically have someone "up there" to handle things, then orbit a SMALL purpose-built man-tended (NOT "permanently manned") space station at the 29.5 degree launch azimuth (orbital inclination) of launches from Cape Canaveral and KSC... better yet, skip the expensive space station and just launch a manned Dragon or other commercial vehicle to rendezvous with the spacecraft, conduct operations, and return once the payload left for the Moon.

As I mentioned, the Lagrangian points are MUCH better points to launch from for Mars or anywhere else in the solar system than LLO. LLO is unstable due to lunar mascons, and requires periodic thruster adjustments to the orbits to prevent spacecraft from crashing into the Moon. While it's true that establishing and maintaining a "halo orbit" around a Lagrange point also requires periodic thruster firings to keep from "drifting off into space", the requirements are IIRC less, as is the propulsive requirements to send a spacecraft from a Lagrange point to any other point in the solar system, compared to LLO. Basically, the proposed "Gateway station" is the way to go... establish a SMALL MAN-TENDED (NOT permanently manned) station at EML-2 (Earth-Moon Lagrange Point 2, high above the far side of the Moon) and send your Mars vehicle elements there for staging and assembly. Depart from EML2 for Mars. Heck EML2 is an excellent waypoint for lunar missions as well... the travel time is about 5-7 days versus about 4 days directly to LLO, BUT, there's a lot of advantages to going to LLO or the lunar surface from EML-2 rather than directly to LLO. For one thing, ANY point on the lunar surface is EQUALLY accessible from EML-2, whereas the propulsion requirements for the plane change from the equatorial lunar orbit from a spacecraft coming directly from Earth to LLO requires huge amounts of propellant. That's why Apollo could ONLY visit certain sites close to the lunar equator... high latitude sites required too much propulsive power for Apollo to be able to access them. If you want to go to the lunar poles, you'll HAVE to go through EML-1 or EML-2. Another benefit is, EML-2 allows "anytime return" from the Moon. This was a 'requirement' for the Constellation program, but it was realized soon after that it was basically an impossible one due to orbital phasing and alignments to get back to Earth from the Moon... it would require either a variable (sometimes substantial) wait time on the surface of the Moon until the landing site, the orbiting Orion hibernating in LLO, and the Earth were all in the proper alignment. It might also require another wait in LLO once the Altair ascent stage and the Orion had linked up, before the orbital alignment was correct for a return to Earth... therefore, by definition, "anytime return" from the lunar surface to Earth is not possible, not unless you're going to EML-1 or 2 first... then you can launch from *anywhere* on the lunar surface to EML-2 at any time, since EML-2 is NOT moving relative to the Moon, and then return to Earth immediately at any time from EML-2, since it is in a constant relationship with the Earth and Moon. (EML-1 is partway between the Earth and Moon, and COULD be used for this purpose, but due to the gravitational interference of both the nearby Earth and Moon, it's harder to maintain position there... Earth and Lunar gravity are constantly perturbing the "halo orbit" around the Lagrange point.)

Anyway, we have to get SMARTER about how we do these things... the "old school" ideas just aren't going to work with the kind of money it's going to cost to do these sorts of missions... we're going to NEED some kind of Lagrange point capabilities, and we're going to need propellant depot technologies and automated rendezvous and docking and automated propellant transfer technologies at a minimum to be PROVEN operational before we can realistically attempt a sustainable lunar OR Mars program...

We CAN do it the "brute force" way, but not sustainably... the sheer costs alone will prevent it... so unless we want "flags and footprints" again, we need to acknowledge that we're going to need a smarter infrastructure base and reference mission plans...

Later! OL JR :)
 
That risk was looked at during Apollo... there was always the possibility that the ascent engine on the LM wouldn't ignite, no matter what was tried... it was as simple a design as possible, and even manually operable by physically OPENING the propellant valves to the engine, with hypergolic fuels that ignite on contact with each other, but STILL, there was ALWAYS the possibility that astronauts might end up hopelessly trapped on the lunar surface.

In that situation, NASA had plans to, after exhausting all options, to simply terminate contact with the astronauts, from what I've read. Nixon even had a speech prepared to read in the event that Apollo 11 was trapped on the surface of the Moon. Once it was deemed absolutely hopeless, final communications with the families would presumably be allowed in private, and then the communications terminated... there would be no "live coverage" til the last gasp of the astronauts on some distant irretrievable location...

Similarly, if a Mars mission somehow had an explosion or was damaged to the point they could not return to Earth, and they were doomed, I would assume a similar 'contingency' plan would be in effect... once all options are exhausted and there's no chance, I would presume final private communications with the families would be allowed, and then the channels closed permanently. They would simply drift off through space to their fate. Same thing with an extended duration lunar crew or permanent lunar surface outpost crew who were 'doomed' and "irretrievable" for whatever reason.

I couldn't see NASA allowing the press to make a 'circus act' out of the astronauts final moments or hours or days or whatever merely for ratings... I'm sure they'd TRY it, but I think the PTB's would exert enough pressure on the FCC to ensure that whomever chose to try to flout that decision would find themselves in a VERY uncomfortable, and hence unprofitable, position. That would probably be enough to deter them... after all, it's all about ratings and "selling newspapers" so to speak...

Later! OL JR :)

Well, an ascent engine failure on Apollo would have meant a "death vigil" of a few days at most; the LM was not carrying enough extra oxygen to keep the astronauts alive for an extended time period past the mission timetable.

Probably the longest "death vigil" we could have seen on Apollo would have been the double-whammy situation of a LM failure to return from the surface, then a SPS failure when the lone surviving astronaut tried to light it up for the TEI burn to go home. In that case, the lone-survivor CMP would have had about 12-15 man-days of consumables (mainly oxygen) before he ran out.

(In which case my bet would be NASA would order the survivor to, essentially, take sleeping pills to zone himself out for 20 hours a day and cut the O2 consumption way way down. If you could somehow stretch those 15 days to, say, 24, you might be in the realm of possibility they could cobble together an emergency unmanned supply rescue cargo ship and get it up there in time to keep him alive another month or so and get an Apollo up for a rescue mission.)

In the case of an SPS failure after the LM crew made it back from the surface, there would have been enough O2 for 3 men for the 3-day return trip back, plus a margin of a day or so.

I suspect in any such cases NASA would maintain contact with the spacecraft, on the wild chance somebody on earth figured out how to fix the problem. Even if the chances were 0.00000000000001%, you wouldn't shut the radios off.

But, a Mars mission would likely have consumables for several months -- but not forever.


I suspect in such a case NASA would keep the radios on and release periodic public excerpts -- if nothing else to sandbag the conspiracy-theorists who would immediately claim to know "what they were really talking about" and release hoax tapes, transcripts, etc etc.
 
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