another Rocksim vs Openrocket ?

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pythonrock

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I have a design that gives very different CP in OR and RS. I flew a 3 in. version that was stable. though I don't remember the CG and CP that RS gave ( The up part was good but - no chute, so I can't measure it now).

In the version with all the fins, OP gave too many fins error, when I removed the extra fins the CP actually moved back. Did OP think they were causing turbulence or interfering with the main fins?

OP put the CP 10 to 13 inches forward of RS.
Why are they so different and with a K515-SK will it be stable?
Thanks
View attachment Gwiber-Lg.rkt
View attachment Gwiber-Lg5FNC.rkt
 
An older forum post here had the following explanation:

Hi,

The number of parallel fins affect a coefficient on how much fin-fin interference reduces the lift the fins produce. As the Barrowman methods don't allow completely arbitrary fin shapes and positions like OR does, it approximates by counting the number of fins along the same body tube section, and assumes the interference to be similar to the interference of same-sized fins. Thus if you have extremely small fins in parallel with larger ones, it may slightly decrease the computed stability. Once you go over the warning threshold of eight fins, they shouldn't have any further effect though.

Cheers,
Sampo N.
 
Does Rocksim not include this factor?
In the version with the small fins removed, there is still 10 inches difference in CP between Rocksim and Openrocket.
 
Dan

The problem is your fin height is 2.7" on a 4" OD rocket. That's a no go. You don't have enough fin area in the clean air outside the boundary layer.

Make it 4" and your problem goes away.

Bob
 
I know that increasing the span in either program will make it stable, but why would it be so different in the two programs? Rocksim says it is very stable as is.
Also I flew the 3 in. version with 2.0 fins and it weathercocked slightly but was stable.
 
I know that increasing the span in either program will make it stable, but why would it be so different in the two programs? Rocksim says it is very stable as is.
Also I flew the 3 in. version with 2.0 fins and it weathercocked slightly but was stable.

Dan in your settings on Rocksim are you using Barrowman or the Rocksim "custom" method for calculating stability? The later method provides much more aggressive/forgiving results.
 
I know that increasing the span in either program will make it stable, but why would it be so different in the two programs? Rocksim says it is very stable as is.
Also I flew the 3 in. version with 2.0 fins and it weathercocked slightly but was stable.

Rocksim has a history of telling people that unstable rockets are actually stable. Not in every case, but in certain scenarios.

Everybody, please listen to Bob! You can have all fin root in the world; if the span is insufficient, the rocket will be searching for direction!
 
Dan

Flight simulation programs do not provide exact solutions of a rocket flight for a number of reasons. In the case of RS, OR and RASAero, two of the principal reasons are: 1.) simulation of a rocket flight needs all environmental factors and all the possible physics which is not realistic for a hobby simulator because 2.) the description of the rocket is not exact.

Virtually all simulators use approximate solutions to some extent which saves a lot of rocket description, measurements and computer power, but how and what approximations are made can make a difference in the simulation for "unusual" designs. If your rocket is a plain vanilla 3FNC or 4 FNC design, most sims will give very close results, but differences will arise when you deviate from the "typical" rocket design.

Sims address aerodynamic flows and shocks over aerodynamic surfaces by approximations because a detailed numerical solution would take too long for the hobbyist, and would require a more detailed description of the rocket than a hobbyist could supply. And not all sims use the same approximations. OR said your design may give incorrect results (and indeed it warned you of that) and RS apparently makes no claims. If you are capable of writing out the equations to describe the flow in greater detail, then you can get a more accurate solution, but is it really worth the effort? Most would say not and simply modify their design to obtain a stable solution. Others won't.

I started designing rockets before hobby sims existed. I first designed by "what looks right for a rocket" followed by a swing test, and this method never failed. In later years after professional training, I developed the habit of correlating cause and effect with very simple models. For fins it was quite straight forward: you need a minimum of 3 and not more than 4. After looking at a number of successful rocket designs, the FS (fin span) is usually close to 5/N times the airframe OD where N is 3 or 4: so FS ~ 5/3 the OD for 3 fins and 5/4 the OD for 4 fins with FS rarely < 1.

Is this a hard and fast rule? Absolutely not! There are a number of rockets with a FS = 1.5 with 3 fins.

Why do I use this correlation? Because I don't do oddrocs and there's nothing good about a failed flight.

Will it produce a stable rocket? Absolutely unless you mess up the CG/CP rules of thumb.

Can you reduce the FS further? Almost anything is possible, but you need to do some homework beyond the sims.

Also to your address your comments. When I simmed your rocket in OR, I loaded in the biggest motor that fit your MMT. Why? Because someday, you or another person might do it. So while my FS recommendation may be conservative, it will be ok.

Bob
 
Tim,
Yes, it was set to rocksim rather than Barrowman and that definitely makes a difference. I was under the impression from some old posts that the rocksim was actually more accurate. But maybe not.

Bob,
I figured it was something along those lines. Thank you for the explanation. I think my design would be stable, but I'm going to increase my span a little to be safe.
 
You want to pick on a piece of software. A finless rocket will likely not work in Barrowman's equations. Rocksim and OR are both based on Barrowman. Try this- find a copy of the Barrowman method, read it, and work through it with a standard 3-4 F C model, and the with you finless model. Report your results back.
 
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