ANOTHER MEDICAL MYTH BITES THE DUST

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My only thoughts are to make sure you know what you're talking about. Lingo warriors really bug me. Big bad GMO- yeah, it's a plant. Yeah it grows in the ground and is digested by humans. Yeah, everything we have is ALREADY GMO, albeit slowly from years of selective hordiculture. From the way the zealots talk, you'd think it was plastic and metal.

These stupid documentaries you see on Pink Slime? They must think we're all too stupid to know that tiny bits of raw meat will look like...duh...evil pink slime!

Speaking as a farmer, there is a BIG difference between selective breeding and hybridization to produce the expression of useful NATURALLY occurring genetic traits in a given crop, and inserting completely foreign genes from COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ORGANISMS via gene guns into a crop (or even livestock) to express some new man-made trait...

That's why I'm no fan of GMO's... they create as many problems as they solve, truth be told... they're CERTAINLY not the panacea that the GMO companies tout them to be...

Later! OL JR :)
 
My only thoughts are to make sure you know what you're talking about. Lingo warriors really bug me. Big bad GMO- yeah, it's a plant. Yeah it grows in the ground and is digested by humans. Yeah, everything we have is ALREADY GMO, albeit slowly from years of selective hordiculture. From the way the zealots talk, you'd think it was plastic and metal.

These stupid documentaries you see on Pink Slime? They must think we're all too stupid to know that tiny bits of raw meat will look like...duh...evil pink slime!

Well the one thing I can agree with you about is that you should know what you are talking about before you spout off on a topic.

For example, if you want to talk about GMO crops, then you should know it means something other than the selective breeding or hybridization used for thousands of years to breed domestic crops. You can't crossbreed a soybean with a cockroach through selective breeding or hybridization, but you can certainly insert genes from a cockroach (or anything else) into a soybean through GMO techniques if you want to. In fact the entire point of GMO is to create organisms that could never be created through hybridization --- not to speed things up just because hybridization is too slow. That's not to say all GMO foods are "evil," just that you may be consuming substances in your GMO food that do not and could not occur naturally in that plant.

Or, for another example, if you are going to talk about "lingo warriors" and terms like "pink slime," then you should know about both sides of the lingo war. On one side you have the industry selling the stuff using lingo like "Lean finely textured beef" or "Boneless Lean beef trimmings," which sounds completely fine. And on the other side you have critics using lingo like "pink slime" or "Soylent pink," which sounds completely disgusting. The real problem is not what you call it, but the fact that the law allows it to be added to your food without disclosing it is there. It's tendons, ligaments, sinew, cartilage, and fatty trimmings, that have been heated and have had the fat extracted, then ground into a paste and treated with ammonia to kill bacteria. If you are OK with eating that, then that's fine. But, if you want to buy ground beef, and have an expectation that "ground beef" means something that can be sold as "beef" that has been through a meat grinder, then I think you should be told if 15% of your ground beef is actually not beef, but is this ammonia-treated byproduct that cannot be sold as beef.
 
The above post is one reason I love living in Humboldt County, it's where the Happy Cows live, for a while anyway...then it's Humboldt Grass Fed Beef!
 
The above post is one reason I love living in Humboldt County, it's where the Happy Cows live, for a while anyway...then it's Humboldt Grass Fed Beef!

There ya go... that's the best way...

But it does cost more...

Later! OL JR :)
 
I don't have the scientific facts to share here but in a nushell, it's been my understanding that the main knock against HFCS is not diabetes problems but that the body never recieves the signal to stop eating and we could throetically consume an infinite amount causing obesity which many times includes the onset of diabetes and other medical conditions. What ever signal we get from most food sources that tells us we're full, does not occur when injesting HFCS.

Verna
www.vernarockets.com
https://www.facebook.com/RocketBabeDustStorm
 
There ya go... that's the best way...

But it does cost more...

Later! OL JR :)

I don't know about Humboldt Grass Fed Beef, but price I paid for this last 1/4 cow I got from my local natural rancher was equivalent to purchasing beef at the local grocery store, if not a little cheaper - and I don't have to worry about the hormones, antibiotics, etc. that I have chosen to avoid (as much as possible). But it's a desert cow, not alot of grass around here......
 
In fact the entire point of GMO is to create organisms that could never be created through hybridization --- not to speed things up just because hybridization is too slow. That's not to say all GMO foods are "evil," just that you may be consuming substances in your GMO food that do not and could not occur naturally in that plant.

Yes, I realize that GMO is much more than hybridization, I meant that almost nothing we eat is in its original form, but has already been genetically modified through history. Granted, those modifications consisted of only what was possible through standard hybridization or grafting, but it is because that is the only thing that was possible. Now more is possible and I don't see what the big whoop about it is. It's a plant. It grows. I'm not going to grow a third arm just because I partake of a bug resistant, 15 pound tomato, or something. What exactly is the danger here? It's just food with a modified characteristic, not radioactive. If they put cockroach genes in, (and a plant actually grew) more power to them, more protein for me. Cockroaches are only gross because of what they do as cockroaches.
 
Yes, I realize that GMO is much more than hybridization, I meant that almost nothing we eat is in its original form, but has already been genetically modified through history. Granted, those modifications consisted of only what was possible through standard hybridization or grafting, but it is because that is the only thing that was possible. Now more is possible and I don't see what the big whoop about it is. It's a plant. It grows. I'm not going to grow a third arm just because I partake of a bug resistant, 15 pound tomato, or something. What exactly is the danger here? It's just food with a modified characteristic, not radioactive. If they put cockroach genes in, (and a plant actually grew) more power to them, more protein for me. Cockroaches are only gross because of what they do as cockroaches.

Just because something is a plant, and it grows, does not mean you can eat is safely. There are many poisonous plants. And there are also many plants that are not necessarily "poisonous," but produce substances that help them in their own survival, but are not necessarily good to eat. For example, there are plants that produce natural insecticides to keep bugs from eating them. Those substances are good for the plant, but not necessarily good for you. Those same substances may actually also be good for agricultural business in the sense that they could protect crops from being eaten by bugs. But maybe corn or soybeans do not naturally make those bug-resistant substances, and there is no way that hybridization can make them produce it, because the gene does not exist in corn or soybeans. GMO techniques makes it possible to introduce those genes from inedible plants, and now corn and soybeans can produce a insecticide to protect the crop, but YOU are now eating a substance produced by a plant you would not choose to eat — something not necessarily good for you. When you talk about a "modified characteristic," you are often talking about an introduced substance not naturally occurring in your food crop.

Now, I don't think all GMO food is necessarily "evil." One example is the "golden rice" that has been modified to include important nutritional substances (beta carotene, maybe?) that are not available in crops grown in certain climates. So the point of the modification is to introduce a food substance from one food crop into another food crop to address a nutritional gap in poor countries that rely on rice as a staple. But not all GMO crops are designed to fill nutritional gaps, and not all GMO crops involve gens swapping between food crops. In fact, most are about profitability, and profitability can be at odds to health.

I think at least the consumer has a right to know. So, if you go to the market and ask, "Is this corn?" then the answer is not simply, "Yeah, it's corn." if the REAL truth is "It's GMO corn that has been modified to produce insecticidal substances and also to resist herbicide so that it can be soaked in weed killer and not die." You might be eating something that is different from the corn you are expecting.
 
I don't know about Humboldt Grass Fed Beef, but price I paid for this last 1/4 cow I got from my local natural rancher was equivalent to purchasing beef at the local grocery store, if not a little cheaper - and I don't have to worry about the hormones, antibiotics, etc. that I have chosen to avoid (as much as possible). But it's a desert cow, not alot of grass around here......

Yeah, it depends, and buying halves locally IS usually cheaper...

As for desert cows, they're some of the best-- they have to do a LOT of walking to find stuff to eat, and dry conditions tend to concentrate the feed value of the grass that is available...

Usually pretty lean and muscular meat... Some of the best beef I've had has been out in West Texas where the cattle are virtually desert raised, scrambling over limestone covered hills and rocks and juniper brush looking for native grasses to eat like sideoats grama...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Yes, I realize that GMO is much more than hybridization, I meant that almost nothing we eat is in its original form, but has already been genetically modified through history. Granted, those modifications consisted of only what was possible through standard hybridization or grafting, but it is because that is the only thing that was possible. Now more is possible and I don't see what the big whoop about it is. It's a plant. It grows. I'm not going to grow a third arm just because I partake of a bug resistant, 15 pound tomato, or something. What exactly is the danger here? It's just food with a modified characteristic, not radioactive. If they put cockroach genes in, (and a plant actually grew) more power to them, more protein for me. Cockroaches are only gross because of what they do as cockroaches.

The problem is that we don't REALLY know or understand JUST EXACTLY WHAT changes are taking place... the "law of unintended consequences"... Believe me, there's a LOT of stuff that changes when you insert genes from completely different parts of the biological realm into crops... and virtually NO research has been done into these changes, because all they have to do to gain FDA and USDA approval is prove that it's "not harmful" immediately; the repercussions years down the road, though-- it's anybody's guess...

While the big agribiz corporations tout that GMO crops are "substantially equivalent", basically "identical" to naturally bred crops, there ARE differences... For instance, ANY Midwest farmer will tell you that corn stalks with the Bt gene are MUCH harder than regular cornstalks...(Bacillus thuringensis, a type of soil bacteria, which has been found to produce a "spiky" protein that will perforate the guts of lepidopterous pests (IOW, caterpillars of various moths that lay their eggs in corn and soybean fields) and end up stopping up their guts and killing them-- basically the equivalent of us having a big bowl of shredded wheat for breakfast, topped with a thick layer of broken glass...) Bt cornstalks are SO tough that they can puncture tires, or at the very least cause severe tire wear... So much so that manufacturers have come out with "stalk stompers" and other such attachments to crush the stalks over so they tires don't come straight down on top of them. There's other examples, too... I read awhile back that there are some interesting changes to the chemistry of the plant and how it interacts with the environment. Then there's Roundup-Ready cotton-- the early version had an interesting side-effect on the cotton bolls... if the Roundup was sprayed after the fourth-true-leaf stage of growth, it would cause the tip of the cotton boll, where the (usually) four quarters of the boll split open when the boll is ready to harvest (like wedges of lemon cut from the tip to stem end of the lemon) would "curl over" like a hook or "eagle's bill" and cause the boll to be stuck closed, preventing it from opening fully, and making the boll unharvestable by mechanical pickers (and usually ejected by strippers since the lint would not be exposed to the saw cleaner). The "don't spray after the fourth-true-leaf stage" was their recommendation to minimize or prevent the problem, or at least minimize it... They later released "Roundup Ready 2" to "solve the problem".

Then there's the whole "jumping species" problem... that's the main reason that they haven't released any genetically engineered grain sorghum-- it's SO closely related to johnsongrass, a major pest species, that they don't want to run the risk of the relevant trait genetics "jumping species" into johnsongrass, and making it "Roundup Ready" too... There was a major stink a few years ago over Monsanto's release of Roundup Ready alfalfa... alfalfa is closely related to goatweed, and the worry was that the roundup ready genes would jump species into goatgrass, and make Roundup ineffective against it. Goatgrass is also a major weed problem for other typical western crops like wheat and canola and such, and thus roundup resistant goatweed would pose a significant pest problems in western crops. Then there was the whole issue of the CUSTOMER DOESN'T WANT THE D@MN STUFF-- Europe and Asia both reject our use of GMO's and the US has virtually frozen itself out of the European markets for corn and soybeans, and the Asians had stated they would refuse to buy US alfalfa (they import enormous quantities of it from the Pacific Northwest) if it were "contaminated" by roundup ready alfalfa. The VAST majority of growers were outraged at this potential loss of markets which would have ENORMOUS impacts for the forage industry, just to release a product of dubious usefulness... they managed to apply enough pressure to get it pulled from the market before it was sold, and delay its introduction by five years... but I understand that Monsanto is pushing heavily for its release AGAIN, so the farmers will have to fight it again...

There is a LOT more going on in that plant when you insert genes from fish, bacteria, even viruses, insects, or other animals into plants, most of it unknown, because the main focus of study is to ensure that the desired trait has been expressed, and that the stuff isn't outright overtly poisonous... Environmental problems caused by it is barely on the radar, and delayed or secondary effects aren't even considered...

But hey, so long as Monsanto, Dow, and the other big agribiz corporations are making billions, who cares, right??

Later! OL JR :)
 
I don't have the scientific facts to share here but in a nushell, it's been my understanding that the main knock against HFCS is not diabetes problems but that the body never recieves the signal to stop eating and we could throetically consume an infinite amount causing obesity which many times includes the onset of diabetes and other medical conditions. What ever signal we get from most food sources that tells us we're full, does not occur when injesting HFCS.

Verna
www.vernarockets.com
https://www.facebook.com/RocketBabeDustStorm
This was a little non-rocketry experiment to see what common topic might stir the pot a bit, pun intended.

Verna, you did your homework and got it right without invoking a conspiracy theory that has no basis in fact. :wave:

Glucose, fructose and galactose are the only dietary monosaccharaides which are directly absorbed into the bloodstream during digestion. All 3 are hexoses (6 carbon sugars) each have approximately the same caloric content but different structures which cause different metabolic responses. You are correct that we have a gene that detect the amount of glucose we eat and tell us to stop eating, but there is no equivalent gene that performs the same function with fructose.

Virtually all humans like sweets. The US government has a tariff on imported sugar so the US price is 3 times higher than the world price, so this is the reason why we use High Fructose Corn Syrup as a sweetener in the US instead a sucrose. There is a common misconception about sweetening with sucrose (50% glucose/50% fructose) versus High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) which may have either more or less fructose than sucrose depending on the blend. HFCS 55 contains 55% fructose and 42% glucose and is used primarily in soft drinks, while HFCS-42 contain 42% fructose and 55% glucose is normally used in baked good, beverages, processed foods and cereals. Fructose is nominally 45% sweeter than glucose, so soda formulated with HFCS-55 actually use less sugar than would be used with sucrose to get the same sweetness, and this lowers the caloric count and saves money! Soda made from sucrose has more calories and sugar than when it's made from HFCS-55! In processed foods, there is more glucose than fructose, so the body should feel fuller and should reduce the amount that you want to eat. But....

The real problems is that in this country the food tastes really good, is inexpensive, and the body's glucose regulating gene is easily overpowered by desire and enjoyment. If we like what we eat we will almost always take seconds because we can. We supersize all portions we eat, and that's why we have an obesity problem: our food tastes good and we like to eat, and thus we overeat. It's really that simple and has little to do with added sugar. All the extra calories that we eat and do not use immediately are converted to fat which is how humans store energy. In other parts of the world, where there is a shortage of food and/or good food is expensive, people have less, eat less and are not usually obese.

For example, I really like Coke, and always have. I used to drink 10 cans a day. That's 1200 extra calories a day I didn't need, and the only significant amount of excess sugar I consumed. (I drink my daily 6+ cups of coffee black.) My doctor noticed my blood sugar was a little high and was concerned. When I explained about the Coke and was emphatic that is was the sugar in the Coke and not a diabetes issue, he was skeptical. So being a stubborn chemist, to prove my point I stopped drinking Coke and went back 2 weeks later for a blood test and my sugar level is perfectly normal. Furthermore with 1200 fewer calories in my diet, the added benefit was that after 3 months I have lost 20 pounds.

The global conclusion the paper I reference was the kind of excess sugar you consume doesn't matter, but the total amount of excess sugar added in your diet, and your daily caloric intake is what makes you gain weight and become obese.

Breads, pasta, potatoes and rice all contain starch which is nothing more than polymerized sugar. Excess amounts of these "healthy" carbohydrate's are just as bad for you as excess sucrose or HFCS because the body will hydrolyze them to glucose and store the unused excess as fat. In the US grains are the least expensive way to get calories, and not surprisingly, less affluent Americans subsisting on a grain and starchy food diet rich in carbohydrates and short on protein tend to have more of an obesity problem than more affluent folks who have a diet with more protein in the form of meat and fish than carbohydrates, however anyone who supersizes their diet will eventually become supersized themselves. And that was the ultimate conclusion of my reference......and a good topic of conversation.

Bob
 
This was a little non-rocketry experiment to see what common topic might stir the pot a bit, pun intended.

Verna, you did your homework and got it right without invoking a conspiracy theory that has no basis in fact. :wave:

Glucose, fructose and galactose are the only dietary monosaccharaides which are directly absorbed into the bloodstream during digestion. All 3 are hexoses (6 carbon sugars) each have approximately the same caloric content but different structures which cause different metabolic responses. You are correct that we have a gene that detect the amount of glucose we eat and tell us to stop eating, but there is no equivalent gene that performs the same function with fructose.

Virtually all humans like sweets. The US government has a tariff on imported sugar so the US price is 3 times higher than the world price, so this is the reason why we use High Fructose Corn Syrup as a sweetener in the US instead a sucrose. There is a common misconception about sweetening with sucrose (50% glucose/50% fructose) versus High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) which may have either more or less fructose than sucrose depending on the blend. HFCS 55 contains 55% fructose and 42% glucose and is used primarily in soft drinks, while HFCS-42 contain 42% fructose and 55% glucose is normally used in baked good, beverages, processed foods and cereals. Fructose is nominally 45% sweeter than glucose, so soda formulated with HFCS-55 actually use less sugar than would be used with sucrose to get the same sweetness, and this lowers the caloric count and saves money! Soda made from sucrose has more calories and sugar than when it's made from HFCS-55! In processed foods, there is more glucose than fructose, so the body should feel fuller and should reduce the amount that you want to eat. But....

The real problems is that in this country the food tastes really good, is inexpensive, and the body's glucose regulating gene is easily overpowered by desire and enjoyment. If we like what we eat we will almost always take seconds because we can. We supersize all portions we eat, and that's why we have an obesity problem: our food tastes good and we like to eat, and thus we overeat. It's really that simple and has little to do with added sugar. All the extra calories that we eat and do not use immediately are converted to fat which is how humans store energy. In other parts of the world, where there is a shortage of food and/or good food is expensive, people have less, eat less and are not usually obese.

For example, I really like Coke, and always have. I used to drink 10 cans a day. That's 1200 extra calories a day I didn't need, and the only significant amount of excess sugar I consumed. (I drink my daily 6+ cups of coffee black.) My doctor noticed my blood sugar was a little high and was concerned. When I explained about the Coke and was emphatic that is was the sugar in the Coke and not a diabetes issue, he was skeptical. So being a stubborn chemist, to prove my point I stopped drinking Coke and went back 2 weeks later for a blood test and my sugar level is perfectly normal. Furthermore with 1200 fewer calories in my diet, the added benefit was that after 3 months I have lost 20 pounds.

The global conclusion the paper I reference was the kind of excess sugar you consume doesn't matter, but the total amount of excess sugar added in your diet, and your daily caloric intake is what makes you gain weight and become obese.

Breads, pasta, potatoes and rice all contain starch which is nothing more than polymerized sugar. Excess amounts of these "healthy" carbohydrate's are just as bad for you as excess sucrose or HFCS because the body will hydrolyze them to glucose and store the unused excess as fat. In the US grains are the least expensive way to get calories, and not surprisingly, less affluent Americans subsisting on a grain and starchy food diet rich in carbohydrates and short on protein tend to have more of an obesity problem than more affluent folks who have a diet with more protein in the form of meat and fish than carbohydrates, however anyone who supersizes their diet will eventually become supersized themselves. And that was the ultimate conclusion of my reference......and a good topic of conversation.

Bob

I think if this was really your point, then the way you phrased the title of the thread was a bit of a troll, not an "experiment." And even accepting it as an "experiment," your fellow members may not particularly like being told they're being tested by you.

Now that the site is back on line, I've read the article, and it seems that what they are saying is that swapping glucose for fructose, calorie for calorie, does not have an effect on whether or not a person will develop Type 2 diabetes --- the real problem as far as diabetes is concerned is overconsumption of calories and sugar in general. But that is not the basis for the so called "myth" that your title claims to have been debunked by the article. I don't ever recall hearing anyone say that fructose is more harmful than any other kind of sugar CALORIE FOR CALORIE. But I have heard many claims that HFCS does contribute to Type 2 diabetes --- and that is not the same thing that this research is testing.

The mechanism could very well be that HFCS actually leads to the overconsumption that then leads to diabetes. You acknowledge that humans have a gene that detects the amount of glucose we eat and tells us to stop eating, but there is no equivalent gene that performs the same function with fructose. So doesn't it stand to reason that if you substitute fructose for glucose, then there is an increased likelihood that people will actually consume more of the product made with fructose than they will of the product made with glucose? In practical terms, people will eat more calories of fructose-sweetened product and will not necessarily substitute them CALORIE FOR CALORIE as tested in this research? Therefore is it possible that fructose-sweetened products will actually lead to more overconsumption than glucose-sweetened products and consequently a greater likelihood of developing Type 2 diabetes?

It seems like a more valuable research project would be not to substitute one product for the other calorie for calorie, but to provide both products and let people eat as much as they want, like they do in the real world. Then see if they tend to consume more calories of one over the other, or see if one group develops more cases of Type 2 diabetes than the other. That is actually the question (or "myth") that should be debunked or proven.
 
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Being a type 1 diabetic, which is a very different disease than type 2, I have often been asked "did you eat a lot of sugar as a child", this has also made me chuckle. However this is public perception/ignorance, which likely stems from these pseudo-medical reports.

Most people don't realize that glucose does not create diabetes, rather not watching your caloric intake, having little to no regime in your routine and not exercising allows the disease to present itself, at least in the majority of type 2 cases.

The only caution I would argue with fructose is that it converts to glucose rapidly (high on the Glycaemic Index or GI) compared to other foods. In the majority of cases of type 2 diabetes the body still produces insulin however they have an impaired glucose tolerance, or insulin resistance and cannot produce insulin fast enough to match the release of high GI foods. This of course varies from person to person.

So keep them to a minimum and try to consume them only before a more vigorous activity and not sitting around after dinner.

Nice to know there's another Type 1 rocketeer out there. I have been Type 1 since summer 1967. Diagnosed at nine months old.

My biggest challenge these days? Not passing out while recovering a rocket 1/4 mile away with my 2-year-old on my shoulders. :D
 
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