An SR-71 story.

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Great story! I wish Gizmodo was still publishing stories of that quality.
 
I never knew they hit Mach 3.5, though I understand that that wasn't for an extended duration.
 
A very cool story. I had the chance to meet Kelly a couple of times when I was in high school--the old man worked with him---He was a very----Human----individual--very focused but grounded-a fine person to be sure!. I had the chance ,years later, to witness an SR tanking---quite the sight!--- In the years that followed, prior to college, I asked the old man about the SR and missle interceptes---He gave a explaination for the SR being able to out run/ manuever missles. The solution is so simple and as a bunch of rocket folks it might be interesting---It's a matter of kenetics------this is in 70's/80/s terms---no super maneuverable missles then---imagine an SR coming over the horizon at Mach 3+-on your radar-- you have to launch a Mach 5+ missle ahead of it to intercept it at some point--A small deviation in the course of the target--the SR-----A dog leg--- means a really big deviation in the missles track ---Simply put--the missle can not make the turn needed to intercept the course correction of the SR--COOL ,HUH! Just thought I'd share----Of course all those physics apply at lower altitudes but the time frame compresses.
 
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I never knew they hit Mach 3.5, though I understand that that wasn't for an extended duration.

I haven't read the full article so it may be in there, but I did read once that when then they "were on track" over a target, the cruise speed was faster than the muzzle velocity of a 30.06 round.
 
that is really cool that you got to meet him...I mean..talk about a "resume" for aircraft design.,..P-38, F-80, U-2 and SR-71....just incredible.

A very cool story. I had the chance to meet Kel
ly a couple of times when I was in high school--the old man worked with him---He was a very----Human----individual--very focused but grounded-a fine person to be sure!. I had the chance ,years later, to witness an SR tanking---quite the sight!--- In the years that followed, prior to college, I asked the old man about the SR and missle interceptes---He gave a explaination for the SR being able to out run/ manuever missles. The solution is so simple and as a bunch of rocket folks it might be interesting---It's a matter of kenetics------this is in 70's/80/s terms---no super maneuverable missles then---imagine an SR coming over the horizon at Mach 3+-on your radar-- you have to launch a Mach 5+ missle ahead of it to intercept it at some point--A small deviation in the course of the target--the SR-----A dog leg--- means a really big deviation in the missles track ---Simply put--the missle can not make the turn needed to intercept the course correction of the SR--COOL ,HUH! Just thought I'd share----Of course all those physics apply at lower altitudes but the time frame compresses.
 
what a great story. Who wants to stand in line with me for the new 4" and 5.5" kits soon to be released by Loc Precision. I saw the 4" prototype...I cant wait!!!
 
what a great story. Who wants to stand in line with me for the new 4" and 5.5" kits soon to be released by Loc Precision. I saw the 4" prototype...I cant wait!!!


Wow. This might be the first high powered kit I bought in a long while.
 
I read once, that Kelly Johnson said that they would never really know how fast the plane could/would go. It was designed to fly around 2,000 miles per hour at 75,000 feet and that is where it should fly. The reasoning was that at that speed and altitude, all of the components would be in equilibreum. Faster or slower, parts would be expanding or contracting at different rates and the different tolerances would start to interfere with each other. If you increased speed too quickly and heated the parts in the engines too quickly, or cooled it down too quickly by descending too fast or slowing down too fast, you could sieze a turbine, so it was really best to keep it within the limits it was designed for. I also read many years ago that if the plane got up to speed and passed a mark in LA, and a .223 was fired at the same time, at the marked location, and if the bullet could maintain it's velocity, the SR-71 crew could be drinking coffee in New York for 20 minutes before the bullet would arrive. Words limit my delight in this plane.
 
A very cool story. I had the chance to meet Kelly a couple of times when I was in high school--the old man worked with him---He was a very----Human----individual--very focused but grounded-a fine person to be sure!. I had the chance ,years later, to witness an SR tanking---quite the sight!--- In the years that followed, prior to college, I asked the old man about the SR and missle interceptes---He gave a explaination for the SR being able to out run/ manuever missles. The solution is so simple and as a bunch of rocket folks it might be interesting---It's a matter of kenetics------this is in 70's/80/s terms---no super maneuverable missles then---imagine an SR coming over the horizon at Mach 3+-on your radar-- you have to launch a Mach 5+ missle ahead of it to intercept it at some point--A small deviation in the course of the target--the SR-----A dog leg--- means a really big deviation in the missles track ---Simply put--the missle can not make the turn needed to intercept the course correction of the SR--COOL ,HUH! Just thought I'd share----Of course all those physics apply at lower altitudes but the time frame compresses.

Like a slower jet being able to turn inside a faster one...

You want to see some maneuverability... those A-10's are amazing...

I was in the field one fine spring day, hipping up the fields with a row-disk, getting ready to plant in a couple weeks... gets kinda boring driving a tractor ALL DAY LONG so the mind starts to wander and daydream a lot... after awhile, running the tractor practically becomes "autopilot"... I got SO used to the sound of the engine and the pitch of the transmission gears that I could tell the exact RPM and draft load from the hipper just by the sound... those old Ford tractors had straight-cut gears, which whine like a coyote at the full moon-- not helical cut gears like a car or truck... So, I'm cruising along through the field, happy as a clam, daydreaming away... suddenly the pitch of the whine starts to change... it's going up and up and up... and what's more, it's getting louder and Louder and LOUDER... UH OH! Sounds like the transmission is about to EXPLODE, and I'm sitting on top of it with it between my legs... NOT good! I start checking guages and looking at the color of my exhaust-- no dark black smoke, wheel slip is normal, what the heck is going on-- Then it becomes obvious it's TOO LOUD to be the tractor... I see movement and look up... there are TWO A-10's, dogfighting right over the farm, at maybe a couple hundred feet or so altitude... one's slightly out front, jinking and wigging around, the other one tight on his tail like he's got a hitch on him... Suddenly, the first A-10 chops power to idle, drops one wing, and stomps the rudders hard over, seemingly stopping the plane in midair and dropping to the side... the tailing plane has no choice but to ram the throttles balls to the wall, and roll the opposite direction a bit and climb over him... just as he does, the pilot of the first plane reverses roll and rudders, throttles up, and levels off right behind him in a perfect shooting position... took all of 3 seconds to do... just amazing to see... they flew off to the northwest, still jinking as they went...

I got to the end of the field, throttled back, picked up the hippers, swung around in my turn, dropped the tool in the ground, and throttled back up, and returned to daydreaming...

later! OL JR :)
 
Yes, the A-10 is amazing in it's manuverability. I saw something at an Aerospace Biophysiolgy Seminar where I was a guest participant at Laughlin Air Force Base in Del Rio Texas. We were out on the flight line with base commander and he had some aircraft showing off. One of them was an A-10. The pilot did a knife edge flight inside the perimeter of the runway we were standing on. Since it was a fighter/training base, the runways were only about 50 yards wide and the pilot would make a 90 degree turn and then another one, within 150 feet while flying a knife edge the whole time. Incredible. I would have loved to have seen the dogfight playing between the two that OL JR wrote about. It would have been sweet!
 
I haven't read the full article so it may be in there, but I did read once that when then they "were on track" over a target, the cruise speed was faster than the muzzle velocity of a 30.06 round.

That is really why missiles (and beam weapons if they come to fruition) are the only what to dog fight when you get moving that fast.
 
Dogfights never happen that fast; the performance envelopes (ability to accelerate in each direction) of planes shrink near their maximum speeds.

I read somewhere that an F-16 is only capable of pulling 9+ G's in a turn when it's going just under Mach 1 at sea level on a dry day. Deviate too far from that in any direction and it loses agility.
 
Okay, if you're going to tangent, this is something I can speak to.

There are several factors that go into agility in the classic dogfighting sense. Two of the big ones are turn rate and turn radius.

Turn rate is the degrees per second the nose tracks in a line. The higher the turn rate, the less time it takes for an aircraft to change direction a given amount of degrees.

Turn radius is used to derive how big your turn circle is...the smaller the turn radius, the smaller the turn circle.

Now, I'm going to blow your mind here:

In a level banked turn, any aircraft, going the same speed, pulling the same G, will describe the exact same flight path through the air with the same exact turn rate and radius. It does not matter if it is a Cessna, 747, or F-16.

Now, while you muse about that, some aerodynamics.

Wings generate lift through angle of attack (AOA) and camber. AOA is simply the angle the wing faces the wind...stick your hand out the window in a car. Tilt your hand up a little and notice how it gets pushed up...more angle, more force up. Also, this relates to speed...the faster you go, the more lift is generated for a given AOA.

When the AOA is too high, the wing stops generating enough lift because the air on top is too turbulent. This is called a stall, and is not strictly speed related (ie you can stall at well above minimum level flight airspeed). Also, when wings are generating lift, they are generating drag...which has to be countered by more thrust to keep the speed the same. You can reach a point where the drag is so high, due to the AOA being so high, that you can't generate enough thrust to keep your current airspeed unless you lower the AOA (which may mean losing altitude, backing off the turn, etc).

So, summary - AOA is used to generate lift, which can be used vertically to change altitude, horizontally to change direction, or some combination for both (a typical banked turn). Too much AOA, and the wing stalls. More AOA = equals more drag = more thrust to keep the same speed.

Now, lets talk about instantaneous verses sustained turn rate, and something called corner velocity.

Instantaneous and sustained turn rate are pretty self explanatory. Turn rate can also be described as 'G onset rate'. One of the highest instantaneous G onset rates aircraft was the Cessna T-37 Tweet...a slow, twin engined side by side jet trainer, with a onset rate of 17G per second. Which meant of any aircraft in the inventory, it could initially snap its nose around far faster than anything else...but because you quickly hit the airframe limit, human limit, and lost so much speed so quickly, you didn't get much out of it. One turn and you were done...out of airspeed and ideas. Hawgs (A-10s) have very good initial agility...you can get a good snap turn out of it...great to defeat a firing solution. But if you aren't careful, you had no speed left to do much else...and not enough thrust available to get back up to speed quickly.

Corner velocity is an important number for a fighter...it typically represents the speed the fighter can hold its maximum sustained turn rate at its minimum turn radius. Below this speed, a fighter will hit its AOA limit (stall) before it hits its G limit...it isn't rating its nose as fast as it could. Above this speed, its rating its nose at the G limit, but its turn radius is bigger and its turn rate is slower. This is why typical fights in modern 4th generation fighters have been around 400 knots, because that's where your corner speed tended to be...too slow and you weren't tracking fast enough...too fast and your turn radius gets huge.

Newer 4.5 and 5th generation fighters overcome this with thrust vectoring, relaxed stability, and tons of power...which means you can have a lower corner velocity. This translates into increased agility due to higher turn rates and smaller turn circles.

There are of course fundamental limits at the low end here...if your turn radius is so small that you don't move enough in the pipper to make a difference in the firing solution...you're still toast.

It also means an SR-71 is not agile in any sense of the term at speed...its turn radius is simply gigantic. However, to defeat a missile at that altitude, that may be all that you need.

FC
 
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The SR-71 (which initially was the RS-71, but LBJ transposed the characters to the public, and therefore Lockheed and USAF followed suit) was led by the creative genius of K. Johnson but produced by the Skunk Works team in beautiful downtown Burbank.

When I wore the uniform some 30 years ago, and blackbird landed at Nellis AFB (the only time I'm aware of during my nearly 4 years there). It was the only aircraft I ever saw that was cordoned off and given a security detail, two armed security police (M-16s). Some of the guys from our unit when out late at night to take a peek at it. After a few words to the security detail, we just walked around it, staying outside of the security perimeter. It was like looking at a thoroughbred, born to run. It looked like it was at 500 knots just sitting on the ground! It was the only aircraft I've ever looked at that reminded me of the X-15.

About a year later, they had one do a flyby since there were some bigwigs at the base. At "show center" it lit one burner and drew it back in, then lit the other and drew it back. Each afterburner flame was as long as the aircraft. It was just too cool.

Greg
 
awesome article thanks.
I've heard variants of the ground speed check story before.

A good friend of mine happened to be at the Wright Pat Museum the day their SR-71 came in. He was on a special tour of some sort and they cut through one of the hangers and someone else in the group asked what was behind the screens. The Lieutenant giving the tour said I guess I can tell you since it goes on display tomorrow it's our Blackbird. My friend and his buddy who was with him were at the back of the group and they dropped down to try to shoot some pics through the gap between the floor and screens but they could see anything but the tires because of the angles . But there was a pool of the jellied JP-8 with in reach so he scooped it up in a film can and still has it.
 
Years ago a member of our rocket club worked with the local Air Guard Museum and arranged for a private visit by the club. This was a "Canopies Up" visit so we could see, and in some cases climb into, the cockpits. The museum had just finished the restoration of its A-12 and sure enough they had the canopy up, so every member in attendance climbed in and got to see what it was like to sit in the driver's seat of an A-12. It was amazing how little you could see straight ahead.
 
A friend of mine from a work place in the late 70's told me of being in the Air Force during Viet Nam. He was a refueler stationed at Okinawa. He said the Blackbirds were stationed there at the time and that the hangars were underground. When it was time to refuel the plane, he would drive his fuel truck down the ramp to the hangar door, un-spool his fuel hose, take it to the door, lay it down, beat on the door, and then stand back. Someone would come to the door, open it wide enough to get the hose in, refuel the plane, and then bring the hose back out, and close the hangar door. That was as close as he got. He told me that when the plane was going to take off, the controllers in the tower would hear "I am taking off", and then they could look down to the hangar where the doors would come open, the plane would already be fired up; it would taxi out, turn onto the runway, and take-off into the sun. In the afternoon, the controllers would hear; "I'm coming in" and then the plane would come out of the sun, land on the runway, turn off onto the taxiway, towards the hangar. The ground crews would open the hagar doors and the plane would taxi in with engines still running, with the shutdown taking place after the doors were closed. When the plane was taking off or landing, they could see it on the radar screens, but once it dis-appeared into the sun, it would be gone on the screens. When it came in for landing, it would not appear on the radar unitl it came out of the sun. My friend Robert, and I , would talk about this and his experiences at Kadena all the time. He said the plane was amazing.
 
posted by hornetdriver:

"A very cool story."

Have you read the one about the SR pilot with the 'new' backseat guy just assigned to him? Where he (the pilot) is wondering how the two of them will work out as a team?

They were apparently at altitude, at speed, when they heard some other pilots over the radio. The first one sounded like a newbie, in something like a C-150, putting along having fun and asking the local tower if they could tell how fast he was going. Some other hotshot in a faster plane then came over same channel, so the the C-150 pilot could hear (and be humbled), and asked the tower to read his airspeed.

Then some Navy guys in the area jumped in and asked how fast their F-18 was moving, in a feeble attempt to belittle both of the other pilots.

The SR pilot wrote that after hearing the Hornet jerks, he momentarily considered making the same radio request, then decided not to, then began wondering if he should go ahead......when his new backseater came on the radio ahead of him and asked the tower for a speed check. Seems like the Navy pilot was quiet after that.

This story is posted somewhere on the web, I'll have to do some digging around....
 
OK since everyone id telling their SR-71 stories I have two.
As you can tell from my signature I am retired Navy so both are related to the plane and the Navy.

1. I was stationed at NAS Beeville, TX assigned to the the Electronics Repair division for the GCA/RATC Unit and my CO had just come from one of the Guided Missile Cruisers stationed in the Gulf of Tonkin. He was telling us stories about tracking flights in and out of North Vietnam. One day they pinged an aircraft with no IFF and it was only one ping. They were baffled as to why they didn't see another ping. A day or two later the same thing happened so now they were really on edge thinking somebody had a way to block the radar. When it happened again the guy on the scope happened to look in a different place on the scope and saw another ping, then another but they were really spread out not at the distance they were accustomed to for Navy planes. That is when they knew it was an SR-71 doing recon. He said he couldn't tell us how far apart the pings were because at that time the SR-71 speed was classified.
They were a little ticked off that the plane wasn't squawking IFF so the next time they tracked the plane they got on the radio and told the pilot that if he didn't start using IFF they would consider him hostile and launch a missile. His reply was go ahead and try. My CO said they figured he wasn't bragging.

2. While I was stationed on the U.S.S. Durham LKA-114 we were moored at the Deep Water Piers in Okinawa off/on loading cargo before heading back to the the Tonkin Gulf. We heard this really strange noise, looked up and saw an SR-71 on final for Kadena Air Base. What a sight. What a sound.
One day while we were on liberty we went to Kadena to do some shopping and saw one land. It was immediately flanked by Security vehicles and they taxied it directly into a hanger and shut the doors as the engines were winding down. It was pretty cool.

Later everybody I got to go move more snow. :(
 
I did not know there was an SR-71 lost over the Sea of China due to an engine exploding. In fact they lost 12 total.
 
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posted by hornetdriver:

"A very cool story."

Have you read the one about the SR pilot with the 'new' backseat guy just assigned to him? Where he (the pilot) is wondering how the two of them will work out as a team?

They were apparently at altitude, at speed, when they heard some other pilots over the radio. The first one sounded like a newbie, in something like a C-150, putting along having fun and asking the local tower if they could tell how fast he was going. Some other hotshot in a faster plane then came over same channel, so the the C-150 pilot could hear (and be humbled), and asked the tower to read his airspeed.

Then some Navy guys in the area jumped in and asked how fast their F-18 was moving, in a feeble attempt to belittle both of the other pilots.

The SR pilot wrote that after hearing the Hornet jerks, he momentarily considered making the same radio request, then decided not to, then began wondering if he should go ahead......when his new backseater came on the radio ahead of him and asked the tower for a speed check. Seems like the Navy pilot was quiet after that.

This story is posted somewhere on the web, I'll have to do some digging around....

Should have read the original posted article:

~~~snip~~~
One day, high above Arizona , we were monitoring the radio traffic of all the mortal airplanes below us. First, a Cessna pilot asked the air traffic controllers to check his ground speed. 'Ninety knots,' ATC replied. A twin Bonanza soon made the same request. 'One-twenty on the ground,' was the reply. To our surprise, a navy F-18 came over the radio with a ground speed check. I knew exactly what he was doing. Of course, he had a ground speed indicator in his cockpit, but he wanted to let all the bug-smashers in the valley know what real speed was 'Dusty 52, we show you at 620 on the ground,' ATC responded. The situation was too ripe. I heard the click of Walter's mike button in the rear seat. In his most innocent voice, Walter startled the controller by asking for a ground speed check from 81,000 feet, clearly above controlled airspace. In a cool, professional voice, the controller replied, ' Aspen 20, I show you at 1,982 knots on the ground.' We did not hear another transmis sion on that frequency all the way to the coast.
~~~snip~~~

Good stuff!
 
What an amazing article.The closest I've got was building the estes model when I was 14 I think."Shared" this with my brother who flies r/c planes.
 
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