Advertisement: Wanted: APCP Motor + components (UK)

[fixx]

I am looking into the possibility of candy motors and have come across Richard Nakka's write up/mirror of Chuck Knight's PVC motor. This is a 1" tube (25mm) (for the G class motor anyway). As you'll no doubt guess, that requires custom motor mounts etc and so could not easily be used in i.e a PML kit.
Therefore I am looking to obtain a standard APCP motor of 38mm variety - WITHOUT any propellant. I find that I have a problem, as most of the bits needed to make the motor fly come with the propellant reload kit. It is for this reason that I am asking whether anyone here might have (or know where to find) a suitable motor WITH all the pieces needed to make it fly (except the propellant-obviously).
Dr Rocket or Aerotech (I believe they are essentially the same?) motors are preferred, as I have found information on candy fuel grains specific to these motors although I assume it would work the same in e.g. a Pro38, but correct me if I'm wrong.
I am in the UK, which sadly makes things difficult in this hobby. Thank you in advance for any help/suggestions.
Failing all this, if anyone has suggestions or ideas on how to make the PVC motor reusable that would be great - I have a couple of ideas myself, but am having trouble finding appropriate parts.

 

[ben]

there is a site with you in mind called Aerocon Aerospace......
https://www.aeroconsystems.com/index.html
they sell DIY "purple" cases and closures for 38mm,54mm,76mm,98mm and all that is needed is a reload

I have also heard good things about firefox enterprises for Chemicals btw one guy you NEED to talk to is Rob aka "Elapid" he is in Chat all the time everyday. If you are underaged I highly discourage ydou from those I am wating till at leeast 15 or 16 ICOULD do it know but safety is a big thing I know Richard Nakkas site is great I plan on using some of his tips but let me reiterat 16 is a good age and then some

https://www.firefox-fx.com/ that is the chem site. Have fin with

thanx, Ben

 

[fixx]

Thanks for the reply!
I am not 'underage'...besides if someone is sensible enough then age should not really matter (in an ideal world )
I've seen the aerocon site before, but not looked properly as I saw the U.S. phone number and left the site! It is now in my bookmarks for future ref. though
I have also been to Firefox fx and looked properly, but I feel that maybe buying potassium nitrate (garden fertilizer) and sucrose (table sugar) from the U.S. could be overkill...
It is very sad in my opinion that the U.K. is so lacking in this sort of thing, but it should be expected I suppose.
I know this may have been posted before, but for what it's worth - https://www.rebelrocketry.com/ based in the Netherlands, they sell Dr. Rocket, Pro38 and HyperTek motor systems/casings etc and GSE for hybrids. They ship to U.K. as there is an option next to each product to convert price into certain currencies. Payment via Paypal. I intend to go to them for a Dr. Rocket 38/360 Motor system which makes the classification around mid range I.

 

[ben]

sorry didn't see a location in your profile so I didn't realize you were in the uk well rebel rocketry is a pretty good site some people have had luck and others are just PISSED there is a thread around here somewhere that talks about him BTW sorry for the underaged thing

thanx, Ben

 

[cydermaster]

A piece of friendly advice - check the UK explosives laws - Acts of Manufacture, like this, without the appropriate paperwork are very likely to land you in jail!

 

[arthur dent]

I quite agree.There is a man being held on terrorist charges because he had a reciepe for making rocket propellent(as well as other things).i find this quite worrying,it would only take one busy body government official to get the wrong end of the stick and uk high power could be in real trouble.

 

[fixx]

so...i can't experiment in my hobby?
i've had a look through the explosives act online and as long as i dont make explosives intended to harm, kill, maim etc or with any malicious intent at all it seems that i am allowed to do this without any paperwork.
This is the page I gather my info from. https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section12/chapter_a.html#_Toc44580522
It seems to me (as i read all this) that making sugar propellant isn't illegal. However, will not do anything until I know. Any ideas how I would find out?

 

[hokkyokusei]

Originally posted by ben
sorry didn't see a location in your profile so I didn't realize you were in the uk well rebel rocketry is a pretty good site some people have had luck and others are just PISSED there is a thread around here somewhere that talks about him BTW sorry for the underaged thing

thanx, Ben

You've heard bad things about Rebel Rocketry? I'm very surprised!

 

[hokkyokusei]

Originally posted by fixx
I know this may have been posted before, but for what it's worth - https://www.rebelrocketry.com/ based in the Netherlands, they sell Dr. Rocket, Pro38 and HyperTek motor systems/casings etc and GSE for hybrids. They ship to U.K. as there is an option next to each product to convert price into certain currencies. Payment via Paypal. I intend to go to them for a Dr. Rocket 38/360 Motor system which makes the classification around mid range I.

You can buy casings here in the UK. Here's a list of vendors:
https://www.ukra.org.uk/vendors.html

 

[hokkyokusei]

Originally posted by fixx
so...i can't experiment in my hobby?
i've had a look through the explosives act online and as long as i dont make explosives intended to harm, kill, maim etc or with any malicious intent at all it seems that i am allowed to do this without any paperwork.
This is the page I gather my info from. https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section12/chapter_a.html#_Toc44580522
The government doesn't like to make things easy, does it? Very long winded. It seems to me (as i read all this) that making sugar propellant isn't illegal. However, will not do anything until I know. Any ideas how I would find out?

I would double check your interpretation with your local Explosives Liason Officer, If I were you.

 

[fixx]

Hmm..might do that. Wonder if they have many people enquiring about experimental rocketry propellants? The previous comment about the man being arrested for having the recipe worries me though, it sort of puts me off the whole idea of doing anything at all in this hobby.

EDIT: Googling for candy propellant and uk law (or similar phrases) does not throw up anything of use. Incidentally, none of the experimental rocketry sites dealing with candy propellant mention *anything* at all about the law. Not the sites I've seen anyway.

 

[WiK]

Originally posted by hokkyokusei
You've heard bad things about Rebel Rocketry? I'm very surprised!

I think Ben might mean Rebar Rocketry?

Phil

 

[hokkyokusei]

Originally posted by WiK
I think Ben might mean Rebar Rocketry?

Phil

Then Ben should check his facts before casting aspersions in the direction of Rebel Rocketry!

 

[andysrockets]

Rebel Rocketry is one of the best dealers out there. I've used them, I know the guy, and have no complaints at all. Accusations like that are grounds for legal threats.

Only possible complaints are those related to one of his suppliers, who is reknowned for non-supply. But this affects ALL dealers of that range of products.

Sounds to me like you don't know what you are doing, and that you've never used a relaod casing before. By all means support our dealers, but I'll tell you now that you'll be missing some critical parts.

Recent laws mean that it is possible to create a negligible amount BUT for no useful purpose. That amount is tiny (much less than a 38mm reload!), and use of it in a motor IS a useful purpose, and therefore illegal.

There is a difference between being sensible and knowing what you are doing.

Experimental rocketry is not permitted on here.

Contact any one on here who has done EX rocketry, and I'll think you'll find they've all ended up making pipe bombs or managed to do landscape gardening the quick way. These are guys with Chemistry degrees that KNOW what they are doing. Don't believe me - videos can be made available as evidence.

You don't find out UK Law by Googling. You use a lawyer, or contact the respective police officer or government department.

If you think a homemade candy rocket will be cheaper than and outperform a commercial AP motor, then go back to the drawing board and think again.

UKRA has put a LOT of effort in behind the scenes trying to sort out legislation with Government departments. Security is a hot issue right now in UK and elsewhere, especially after the London bombings. All it takes is one guy to make a mistake, and bring down the hobby and all the hard work that has been put in over the last 10 years!

 

[fixx]

ill forget it then, it looked like something interesting but never mind.
EDIT:

Sounds to me like you don't know what you are doing, and that you've never used a relaod casing before. By all means support our dealers, but I'll tell you now that you'll be missing some critical parts.

NO, I haven't used one before, but I DO know that some parts come with the reload kit. I was merely researching exactly WHAT is involved since proper information seems to be very thin on the ground about what you need and what you get.

Recent laws mean that it is possible to create a negligible amount BUT for no useful purpose. That amount is tiny (much less than a 38mm reload!), and use of it in a motor IS a useful purpose, and therefore illegal.

I was only aware that that law related to black powder.

There is a difference between being sensible and knowing what you are doing.

I might not have known fully, but I thought the idea was to learn. Even if I felt that I wouldn't be able to do it at the end, the videos of launches etc provide good viewing. I wouldn never undertake anything I didn't feel I could do properly.

You don't find out UK Law by Googling. You use a lawyer, or contact the respective police officer or government department.

I was merely looking to see if any EX people in this country had run into problems and mentioned them on e.g. a forum.

If you think a homemade candy rocket will be cheaper than and outperform a commercial AP motor, then go back to the drawing board and think again.

I did not think that, I did not say that and I also believe that it would not be as powerful. I am not stupid or over optimistic.


So, tell me, since you seem to be very well informed - where am I allowed to fly my model rockets?

And can we drop this whole law thing, if experimental rocketry is illegal I certainly won't be doing it. End of story.

 

[ben]

Originally posted by WiK
I think Ben might mean Rebar Rocketry?

Phil

I m am sorry, I thought I read Rebar sorry for the confusion I did not mean to make anyone disapointed


Thanx, Ben

 

[andysrockets]

Originally posted by fixx
So, tell me, since you seem to be very well informed - where am I allowed to fly my model rockets?

Where are you in the UK?

There are a number of clubs which hold regular (monthly) meets. All the best vendors usually attend most of the bigger ones, so you can see and buy and meet people who have been doing this for many years.

Pop over to the UKRA website www.ukra.org.uk where there is a full list of clubs and a list of recommended vendors.

 

[arthur dent]

Originally posted by fixx
The previous comment about the man being arrested for having the recipe worries me though, it sort of puts me off the whole idea of doing anything at all in this hobby.

Please dont allow this to worry you,this man was arrested on several terrorist charges.I have just gone through the process for aquiring and keeping explosives so that i can keep AP motors.The police were helpfull,professionall and interested.I do agree with Andy that it will take only one silly rocketry related incident to swing the spot light of doom on to the hobby.

 

[Damian]

BUT,

you can experiment in hybrid rocketry.........

This certianly doesn't breach the UK laws.

regards

Damian

 

[benjarvis]

EX in the UK is a bit of a no-no. I certainly know one person of some renown who made candy motors for some time convinced he could do so legally. He eventually contacted the HSE and the police and invited them to his house to 'proove' to all the nay-sayers that he WAS allowed to make his own motors...

They gave him two choices... burn the lot in front of them and never make any more... or come with them, and bring the propellant, down to the local Police station and argue the point in court after a few nights in a cell.


you definitely CANNOT make candy motors legally in the UK.


Hybrids are a grey area. I, and many others, have made and are making amateur hybrids in the UK... as they don't technically count as an explosive article, any more than a home made gas-turbine engine or pulse-jet engine (both of which are legal) is an explosive article.

They are however more complex to build than a simple candy motor, and require a reasonable amount more initial research and development (before you even start turning metal) to ensure your safety and that of anyone near you when you test it.... especially if you're making your own pressure tanks.


If you're seriously interested in building hybrids, I'd strongly advise speaking to some folks who have done it before (in the US or the UK) first and run your plans by them before commiting to material... it will save you time and money... if not your life/fingers.

But... that said... when you push that button and a rocket powered by an engine you have designed and built yourself lifts off... it is beyond any thrill you will ever get from model or HPR rocketry... it's very, very exciting.


Best of luck



Ben

 

[Ursa_Major]

Didn't the White Rose guys have a run of success with candy motors a few years back, until (HSE?) paid them a visit & suggested that they apply for a UN number for their propellent or stop making it?

My recall of this episode is a bit hazy, so forgive me if the above isn't 100% accurate.

It really is a pity that EX solids can't be made in the UK, but as Damian's already suggested, EX hybrids are allowed, and several of us are working on them at present. While it doesn't involve the same degree of chemistry as solids, there are definitely alternative challenges in the process which can make it just as enjoyable IMHO.

Fixx, PM me if you want to chat offline.

G.

 

[hokkyokusei]

Originally posted by Ursa_Major
Didn't the White Rose guys have a run of success with candy motors a few years back, until (HSE?) paid them a visit & suggested that they apply for a UN number for their propellent or stop making it?

My recall of this episode is a bit hazy, so forgive me if the above isn't 100% accurate.

It's largely accurate. Apart from the bit about the "run of success".