2x Christmas Estes controller failure…

[KenECoyote]

As others have noted, using the standard Estes controller with good batteries should be fine. I've probably done hundreds of personal launches in my local area using both the AA and 9v ones and never had an issue when making sure of the following:

• Good batteries! (Alkaline at minimum, Energizer, Duracell or lipo are bonus and recommended)
• Use good igniters! If you have the older white tipped crap, you'll have a harder time and should buy a new pack of the gray coated ones. I have used many of the white ones, they're just not as good.
• TEST it!!! I recently grabbed a new Estes orange 9v controller and new Energizer 9v and tested it outside with a new igniter and it didn't work. It ended up being the 9v battery was really old stock. I swapped it out and the igniter fired right up. I have the Estes Pro controller, but haven't needed it yet for any low power launches.
• I like to bend loops on the end of the igniter wires since it provides more contact area and the clips grip better.
• Make sure your clips don't touch each other and DON'T pull on the wires as you're about to launch. I usually tie the wires in a simple knot around one of the base legs to avoid any pulling out of the igniter.

In fact, the brand new controller mentioned above was used to launch my Candy Cane rocket recently.

Good luck and I hope everything goes well next time!

 

[sriegel]

If you're handy with a soldering iron, it's easy to mod the Estes controller for external power. I opened the case and soldered in a two-conductor wire to bypass the batteries. That runs out the bottom of the case to a 12V jumpstart battery. Works like a champ and allows you to use pretty much whatever external battery you care to.

 

[KenECoyote]

As others have noted, using the standard Estes controller with good batteries should be fine. I've probably done hundreds of personal launches in my local area using both the AA and 9v ones and never had an issue when making sure of the following:

• Good batteries! (Alkaline at minimum, Energizer, Duracell or lipo are bonus and recommended)
• Use good igniters! If you have the older white tipped crap, you'll have a harder time and should buy a new pack of the gray coated ones. I have used many of the white ones, they're just not as good.
• TEST it!!! I recently grabbed a new Estes orange 9v controller and new Energizer 9v and tested it outside with a new igniter and it didn't work. It ended up being the 9v battery was really old stock. I swapped it out and the igniter fired right up. I have the Estes Pro controller, but haven't needed it yet for any low power launches.
• I like to bend loops on the end of the igniter wires since it provides more contact area and the clips grip better.
• Make sure your clips don't touch each other and DON'T pull on the wires as you're about to launch. I usually tie the wires in a simple knot around one of the base legs to avoid any pulling out of the igniter.

In fact, the brand new controller mentioned above was used to launch my Candy Cane rocket recently.

Good luck and I hope everything goes well next time!

This was my range bag for my last low power launch at the local park.

 

[AeroTech]

That description does not seem to include standard ignitor clips, only the copper-head clip?

Current production includes standard igniter clips.

 

[kjhambrick]

Gary --

Any updates on the availability of the new Aerotech iLaunch Wireless Controller ?

Thanks !

-- kjh

 

[AtlPhilip]

For flying at the park, make your own adapters and use your car battery and cords you already own.

Adapter 1: Small battery clamps to 120v (NEMA 5-15) female plug

<120v extension cord you already own goes here>

Adapter 2: Switchbox with 120v male on one end, female on the other

<120v extension cord you already own goes here>

Adapter 3: Alligator clips with 120v female plug.

If you want continuity test, add another switch, LED, and resistor to your switchbox

 

[BEC]

Concur with all those who said decent batteries are the key. The Electron Beam (either the LPR one with the 18 foot skinny wires) or the E version with the longer/heavier wires will do the job of launching anything with a single black powder motor or 18/24mm Q-Jet as long as the igniter is installed properly and leads are not shorted.

This advice is changing with respect to 9V controllers though (the only currently available one being the Aerotech/Quest Phaser) as Duracells and Energizers are now NOT suitable except for the at-least-$13-a-pop Energizer Lithium. More info on that score coming, most likely first as a vNARCON R&D report first. For some on that, read @QFactor's thread from January of this year HERE.

 

[OzHybrid]

You could easily put about 10,000uF of capacitance across the battery to boost its instantaneous current delivery capacity. For up to a 12v system (14v at full charge) 2x4700uF 16v capacitors in parallel should work and should pretty much eliminate any battery issues. They would be capable of instantaneously delivering 2/3 of a Joule on a 12V system. This is enough energy for 1 Watt for 2/3 of a second purely from the capacitor storage. Most ignitors fire within 1/3 of a second, a lot are sooner.
It's a $2 solution.....

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/232196740185
Merry Christmas
Norm

 

[AeroTech]

Gary --

Any updates on the availability of the new Aerotech iLaunch Wireless Controller ?

Thanks !

-- kjh

We made some upgrades to the design that have caused our current estimated shipping schedule to slip until April-May. Customers will appreciate the improvements, however.

 

[BEC]

You could easily put about 10,000uF of capacitance across the battery to boost its instantaneous current delivery capacity. For up to a 12v system (14v at full charge) 2x4700uF 16v capacitors in parallel should work and should pretty much eliminate any battery issues. They would be capable of instantaneously delivering 2/3 of a Joule on a 12V system. This is enough energy for 1 Watt for 2/3 of a second purely from the capacitor storage. Most ignitors fire within 1/3 of a second, a lot are sooner.
It's a $2 solution.....

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/232196740185
Merry Christmas
Norm

In the testing I alluded to above, I'm finding that you need around 10W into an Estes "starter" for around 1/2 a second to get a good solid firing. Startechs (the current grey ones) don't need as much to get that grey stuff, whatever it is, burning, but still well over 1W. It takes about 12W to reliably burn them hot enough to burn out the bridge wire.

We made some upgrades to the design that have caused our current estimated shipping schedule to slip until April-May. Customers will appreciate the improvements, however.

Gary, good to hear. Right is better than soon for something like this. Looking forward to it.

 

[OzHybrid]

In the testing I alluded to above, I'm finding that you need around 10W into an Estes "starter" for around 1/2 a second to get a good solid firing. Startechs (the current grey ones) don't need as much to get that grey stuff, whatever it is, burning, but still well over 1W. It takes about 12W to reliably burn them hot enough to burn out the bridge wire.


Gary, good to hear. Right is better than soon for something like this. Looking forward to it.

I think you'll find that the instantaneous current availability from the capacitors in parallel with the poor quality battery will SIGNIFICANTLY improve the performance. Your tests were with 9v batteries. If you were using 9V batteries, I'd go with 3x 4700uF 16V capacitors in parallel with each other in parallel with the 9v battery. You need more capacitance as you decrease the available voltage.
The calculation was just a simple one and did not take into account lead resistance, but it's close enough for a try

You could add it to your tests as you've got the bits and prove me wrong....... Remember the electrolytic capacitors are polarity sensitive... I'm sure you knew that.

 

[neil_w]

I think you'll find that the instantaneous current availability from the capacitors in parallel with the poor quality battery will SIGNIFICANTLY improve the performance. Your tests were with 9v batteries. If you were using 9V batteries, I'd go with 3x 4700uF 16V capacitors in parallel with each other in parallel with the 9v battery. You need more capacitance as you decrease the available voltage.
The calculation was just a simple one and did not take into account lead resistance, but it's close enough for a try

You could add it to your tests as you've got the bits and prove me wrong....... Remember the electrolytic capacitors are polarity sensitive... I'm sure you knew that.

Honestly, it sounds like it's worth some experimenting. If some electrolytics added to a plain old 9V battery does the job, it'd be a really easy way to solve a common problem.

 

[OzHybrid]

Honestly, it sounds like it's worth some experimenting. If some electrolytics added to a plain old 9V battery does the job, it'd be a really easy way to solve a common problem.

This should fix any single igniter issues. If you're doing clusters, you'd want to have a more robust solution. And 9V battery wouldn't be a suitable choice for clusters due to the limited voltage to create the current and the chemical limitations of the battery to produce current.

 

[neil_w]

This should fix any single igniter issues. If you're doing clusters, you'd want to have a more robust solution. And 9V battery wouldn't be a suitable choice for clusters due to the limited voltage to create the current and the chemical limitations of the battery to produce current.

Agreed, only thinking of the cap solution as a way to make basic schoolyard flying more reliable.

 

[BEC]

I think you'll find that the instantaneous current availability from the capacitors in parallel with the poor quality battery will SIGNIFICANTLY improve the performance. Your tests were with 9v batteries. If you were using 9V batteries, I'd go with 3x 4700uF 16V capacitors in parallel with each other in parallel with the 9v battery. You need more capacitance as you decrease the available voltage.
The calculation was just a simple one and did not take into account lead resistance, but it's close enough for a try

You could add it to your tests as you've got the bits and prove me wrong....... Remember the electrolytic capacitors are polarity sensitive... I'm sure you knew that.

This is an interesting idea. I need to finish with what I am working on right now. I have found that there ARE viable 9V alternatives that don’t cost $13+ a pop and that includes alkaline 9Vs that still work….they are just not from the usual brands. But not all of the data are gathered in one place and nicely organized yet. I’ve a little less than two weeks to get that done before the report is due for vNARCON.

I can certainly suggest that some experiments with capacitors like this as follow-on work.

But the real problem to solve as described by the OP is really a different one, which is identifying and making known which AA cells to use in an Electron Beam launch controller as that is the one that is in all current Estes launch and starter sets. And 4AAs do work just fine if they are decent cells and the igniter is installed properly. This has been the case since the appearance of the Estes Solar Launch Controller and the Solar Igniters in the early 1970s. The recent years where the “Solar Starters” were what you got were more difficult, but even they work adequately if installed properly and if one doesn’t cheap out on the batteries in the controller.

At this time I have no reason to believe (as I do with 9V batteries) that widely available Duracell or Energizer cells won’t do the job. My advice to newbies at the big soccer field I often fly at (Sixty Acres park in Redmond, Washington) is to NOT cheap out on the batteries.

A quick search turns up that “Member’s Mark” batteries appear to be a Sam’s Club/Walmart private label. They could be great or they could be lousy. I have had decent results with Costco’s brand, Kirkland Signature, in launch controllers in the past (though the ones in the gold wrapper do tend to leak after awhile) but I have no experience with their current ones, or Member’s Mark.

Unless you’re suggesting that Estes (or Aerotech/Quest) add capacitors to their controllers, or you’re expecting that the rank beginner make a modification like this before they can go to the schoolyard or park and launch a few LPRs, this is an interesting research project perhaps, but not really a solution to the issue that this thread started with.

 

[jadebox]

Something to watch out for with the Estes controller is that the batteries make good contact with each other. I think different brands of batteries vary a little in size so that some just don't fit right in the Estes controllers. If the difference is too great, the continuity light won't illuminate. But I think it's possible for the batteries to touch well enough to provide continuity, but not well enough to provide enough current for the igniter.

 

[n3tjm]

I have a nice launch system, but once in a while I just want to launch one rocket and dont want to drag out my 12 Vt lead acid battery and set up my system, so I use my trusty Estes or Quest controller. They work fine IF and only IF you follow these simple rules

1. USE GOOD BATTERIES. If it has a store name or generic name, they are not good enough. Amazon branded batteries are a no go (and quality vatries on those) My favorites are Duracell Coppertops. DO NOT buy them on amazon because you don't know if you getting real ones or counterfeits (Ive gotted obvious counterfiets on amazon, so now i just buy them at walmart). Dollar spot batteires are a NO GO.

2.) Buy fresh batteries for each event.

3.) The following is advice I gave to boyscout leaders I know that use estes and quest controllers for their rocket launches with their troups. And it works great. If its within your budget, get low current igniters. MJG makes "BP rockets Startes" which will go all day on an estes/quest controller. Just make sure its safe with your cotroller first. The modern kind that uses the LED for a continuity light should be safe. If you use the old style with the indesent builb, they will fire once you insert the key,.

 

[BEC]

1. USE GOOD BATTERIES. If it has a store name or generic name, they are not good enough. Amazon branded batteries are a no go (and quality vatries on those) My favorites are Duracell Coppertops. DO NOT buy them on amazon because you don't know if you getting real ones or counterfeits (Ive gotted obvious counterfiets on amazon, so now i just buy them at walmart). Dollar spot batteires are a NO GO.

As noted above, for 9V-battery-based controllers this is NO LONGER TRUE. Duracells and Energinzers have changed their internal construction and while they may be great for smoke detectors, they are useless in a launch controller. And, as it turns out, Amazon Basics brand, either the alkaline or lithium versions, are quite good in a 9V controller.

Much more about this in the R&D I am planning to submit to vNARCON (if I can get it all written up properly in the next eight days). Some background for why I say this in this thread. I have since done some extensive instrumented testing, in part using the Quest/Aerotech Phaser launch controller. The resulting data are what I need to write up for that R&D report.

All of this is a side discussion for the OP, however who was using Electron Beams, which run on AAs and for which @n3tjm's advice is still, so far as I know, quite good.

 

[KenECoyote]

As noted above, for 9V-battery-based controllers this is NO LONGER TRUE. Duracells and Energinzers have changed their internal construction and while they may be great for smoke detectors, they are useless in a launch controller. And, as it turns out, Amazon Basics brand, either the alkaline or lithium versions, are quite good in a 9V controller.

Much more about this in the R&D I am planning to submit to vNARCON (if I can get it all written up properly in the next eight days). Some background for why I say this in this thread. I have since done some extensive instrumented testing, in part using the Quest/Aerotech Phaser launch controller. The resulting data are what I need to write up for that R&D report.

All of this is a side discussion for the OP, however who was using Electron Beams, which run on AAs and for which @n3tjm's advice is still, so far as I know, quite good.

FWIW when I recently did a rush grab of a new 9V orange controller and the 9v Energizer failed to fire the Estes igniters (one old white tip, the other new gray tip) on testing, I decided to just grab one of the EBL 9v Lipos I've been using for my dd setups and that worked great (night and flaming day lol).

I first got these around 2015 from Amazon and they're still available. I've never had issue, but YMMV and Test, test, test!