2 stage O motor to space?

[jackinthebox]

Hello,

I am currently wondering the feasibility of launching a two stage rocket into space with two Aerotech O5500 motors. RASaero predicts 360k and mach 5.1 on the sustainer.

Each stage would have a 4 inch diameter and be actively separated from one another.

Opinions are very much appreciated. At this point I am asking for your opinion on if this is possible and what potential challenges I may face.

Thanks.

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

Hello,

I am currently wondering the feasibility of launching a two stage rocket into space with two Aerotech O5500 motors. RASaero predicts 360k and mach 5.1 on the sustainer.

Each stage would have a 4 inch diameter and be actively separated from one another.

Opinions are very much appreciated. At this point I am asking for your opinion on if this is possible and what potential challenges I may face.

Thanks.

Yes is is possible. Challenges? All of them.

 

[user 30299]

Hello,

I am currently wondering the feasibility of launching a two stage rocket into space with two Aerotech O5500 motors. RASaero predicts 360k and mach 5.1 on the sustainer.

Each stage would have a 4 inch diameter and be actively separated from one another.

Opinions are very much appreciated. At this point I am asking for your opinion on if this is possible and what potential challenges I may face.

Thanks.

An important question is what is the extent of your experience with high-power rockets?

 

[rfjustin]

Hello,

I am currently wondering the feasibility of launching a two stage rocket into space with two Aerotech O5500 motors. RASaero predicts 360k and mach 5.1 on the sustainer.

Each stage would have a 4 inch diameter and be actively separated from one another.

Opinions are very much appreciated. At this point I am asking for your opinion on if this is possible and what potential challenges I may face.

Thanks.

100% possible, just not a trivial effort. Order the rocket parts and motors ASAP. You want to make sure you get the orders in before all the holiday sales.

 

[Five]

Hello,

I am currently wondering the feasibility of launching a two stage rocket into space with two Aerotech O5500 motors. RASaero predicts 360k and mach 5.1 on the sustainer.

Each stage would have a 4 inch diameter and be actively separated from one another.

Opinions are very much appreciated. At this point I am asking for your opinion on if this is possible and what potential challenges I may face.

Thanks.

360k? Is that 360 kilometers? I think that might be a new altitude record.

 

[Loki Research]

Opinions are very much appreciated. At this point I am asking for your opinion on if this is possible

Not sure what your schedule is for this, but I'd wait for the new Loki Research 98/23000 hardware later this year with red (long burn sustainer) and blue (short burn booster) reloads to come out before Spaceport next year.

It'll make the whole effort easier to accomplish. Shorter length, balanced hardware, equal or maybe even lighter motor mass, higher mass fraction, higher total impulse (~49kNs) and the ability to use a 3.873" aluminum or fiberglass airframe, etc (smaller frontal area = BIG altitude gains). You just need to make your own NC at this diameter.

That's just what I'm gonna do though, but yes, 360k' with these is definitely doable. Space, that's the goal here after all.

 

[Loki Research]

These are only best estimates at this time but are still helpful for simulations.
They are based off of testing done with a 50" long case. Production version will be a bit longer.

Loki Red
;
O3450LR 98.0 1346.20 0 12.45111 18.78811 Loki
0.00 0.45
0.01 2029.50
0.01 2536.79
0.03 3669.17
0.03 4130.77
0.04 4498.77
0.05 4671.22
0.06 4680.98
0.10 4435.84
0.13 4313.13
0.20 4176.37
0.47 3932.79
0.84 3913.61
1.62 4028.71
3.00 4450.77
4.89 4431.58
5.03 4258.92
5.39 3721.76
5.64 3088.68
5.90 2493.96
6.18 1803.33
6.37 1381.27
6.62 1016.77
6.83 767.37
7.08 594.71
7.31 345.32
7.60 0.00
;

Loki Blue

;
O7400LB 98.0 1346.00 0 10.22850 16.5655 LOKI
0.00 11.83
0.00 33.79
0.01 198.24
0.01 8431.31
0.11 7809.33
0.76 8051.21
1.49 8189.43
2.12 8100.61
2.58 8001.21
2.67 6882.58
2.79 5340.76
2.89 3401.55
3.10 0.00
;

 

[sharkbait]

Not sure what your schedule is for this, but I'd wait for the new Loki Research 98/23000 hardware later this year with red (long burn sustainer) and blue (short burn booster) reloads to come out before Spaceport next year.

It'll make the whole effort easier to accomplish. Shorter length, balanced hardware, equal or maybe even lighter motor mass, higher mass fraction, higher total impulse (~49kNs) and the ability to use a 3.873" aluminum or fiberglass airframe, etc (smaller frontal area = BIG altitude gains). You just need to make your own NC at this diameter.

That's just what I'm gonna do though, but yes, 360k' with these is definitely doable. Space, that's the goal here after all.

Two questions Scott.
1. Will you have a HEI capable forward closure
2. Full graphite nozzle? Aluminum carrier with graphite throat? Any phenolic insulator at nozzle?

 

[Loki Research]

1) yes, plus in flight Pc recording with the EasyMotor.
2) single use phenolic nozzle with graphite insert
3) bonus prize, bulkhead and nozzle entrance filled with more propellant.

 

[smstachwick]

360k? Is that 360 kilometers? I think that might be a new altitude record.

FAA regs state that even a Class 3 build remain under 150km.

Probably 360,000 ft. The Karman line is 328,083 ft and change.

 

[MClark]

FAA regs state that even a Class 3 build remain under 150km.

Probably 360,000 ft. The Karman line is 328,083 ft and change.

This is why the BALLS TFR is 492,000’ max.

 

[cerving]

Hello,

I am currently wondering the feasibility of launching a two stage rocket into space with two Aerotech O5500 motors. RASaero predicts 360k and mach 5.1 on the sustainer.

Each stage would have a 4 inch diameter and be actively separated from one another.

Opinions are very much appreciated. At this point I am asking for your opinion on if this is possible and what potential challenges I may face.

Thanks.

Technical, financial, or regulatory? Plenty in each column... assuming your're not a bot, which I'm not so sure about given that this is your one and only post on the forum.

 

[user 30299]

Technical, financial, or regulatory? Plenty in each column... assuming your're not a bot, which I'm not so sure about given that this is your one and only post on the forum.

One thing good about this topic is the cool info that Loki Research (Scott) has shared with us.

 

[FredA]

Nice looking motors (based on the data) Scott.

 

[jqavins]

The O5500 is a baby O, where the CTI O8000 is right up to the line 40960 Ns. On the other hand, it has 2.7 time the forward area. I think I'd go with O8000 in the booster and something at 98 mm in the sustainer.

It'll make the whole effort easier to accomplish. Shorter length, balanced hardware, equal or maybe even lighter motor mass, higher mass fraction, higher total impulse (~49kNs) and the ability to use a 3.873" aluminum or fiberglass airframe...

That sounds great, but I have some questions:

1. Is that the O3450 or the O7400?
2. What are the figures for the other one?
3. Wouldn't 49 kNs make it a P motor?

Don't count out a two stage O8000 to O8000

-----------------------------------
A half hour later, here's a quick and dirty, grossly oversimplified O8000 to O8000. It only reaches about 118,000 feet (36 km).

Astronautix.com states that CSXT's GoFast has "44,000 kgf-sec" total impulse, which is about 431,500 Ns. That's a V motor!

Reaching... Space... Is... HARD!

 

[Neutronium95]

Don't count out a two stage O8000 to O8000

The O8000 is essentially irrelevant for any extreme performance rockets, outside of maybe a first stage motor. The massive frontal area, and overkill casing mass reduce the performance potential a lot. The upcoming Loki O motors are sure to be much better options for the sustainer motor, more in line with the O5500 or N5800, albeit a bit longer and a bit higher impulse.

	O5500	O8000	N5800
Propellant mass ratio	58.2%	56.9%	60.8%
Frontal area (not including thrust ring)	11.79in^2	31.47in^2	11.79in^2
ISP (s)	222.9	224.4	227.6
Delta V (m/s)	1910.9	1855.5	2094.0
Price (casing & reload)	$3000	$18,913	$2622

Side note, the original O5280 was noticeably better than the O5500 in terms of performance. It had about a kilogram less dry mass, and had almost 1000 extra Ns of impulse. It had an all up Delta V at sea level of 2221.6 m/s, far ahead of any other commercial motor I've run the numbers for.


Sorry if this is a bit much for a minor correction, I just got into the weeds of analysis a bit.

The CSXT rocket was a mid S motor. A V motor is well outside the limit of FAA Class 3 limitations.

 

[MClark]

OP disappeared after one post.

You got the real thing or you just talking?

 

[Five]

OP disappeared after one post.

You got the real thing or you just talking?

I think he was blowing smoke…

 

[Loki Research]

That sounds great, but I have some questions:

1. Is that the O3450 or the O7400?
2. What are the figures for the other one?
3. Wouldn't 49 kNs make it a P motor?

49k Ns is the two motors combined.