Aerotech Releases New Single Use motors!

Just outta curiosity, what is the maximum lift weight on the H135W-14A ?

I see minimum diameter written all over these! Motor deployed streamer recovery... what is there to loose?!

cerving said:

Fred, you're dead-on, besides that fact that these motors are HPR so they require certification. Do you think that somebody at the local hobby store is going to check the purchaser's NAR/TRA card to confirm their cert? I think not... encouraging consumers to obtain/use HPR motors without the proper certification cannot be a good thing for the hobby.

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Which hobby shop carries H motors?

Sparky2 said:

I see minimum diameter written all over these! Motor deployed streamer recovery... what is there to loose?!

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Where is your build thread? :tongue:

None... yet. The point is that if they can order them, they may be likely to have them right next to the G80's. I assume that Aerotech will have to do some due diligence regarding to whom they sell...

DeeRoc29 said:

Which hobby shop carries H motors?

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This is the same argument that was made before reloads and when reloads came on the market and probably will be again with whatever the next new thing is. There are already regulations prohibiting sales of motors above certain specifications from being sold to minors. That should take care of the vast majority of inappropriate sales, i.e., sales to a minor put liability on the retailer. As for mishandling by adults, the packaging contains safe handling instructions. Your reasoning would apply to drain cleaner. It doesn't work that way. There's so much B.S. fear mongering loose in the land it's a wonder people get out of bed in the morning.

cerving said:

None... yet. The point is that if they can order them, they may be likely to have them right next to the G80's. I assume that Aerotech will have to do some due diligence regarding to whom they sell...

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Agree with you, Peter.

The "concerns" raised in this thread about Aerotech being in some way irresponsible are totally bizarre to me. Some folks on this forum need to GAFL.

Maybe I am missing something, but who made those claims?

I only chimed in to comment about attempting to adjust delays on single use motors where the consumer wouold need to remove an ejection charge cap, pour out the ejection charge, drill the delay, reinstall the ejection charge and reinstall the ejection charge cap. That is nothing like RMS prep (including delay adjustment) and loading.

DeeRoc29 said:

Agree with you, Peter.

The "concerns" raised in this thread about Aerotech being in some way irresponsible are totally bizarre to me. Some folks on this forum need to GAFL.

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shreadvector said:

I only chimed in to comment about attempting to adjust delays on single use motors where the consumer wouold need to remove an ejection charge cap, pour out the ejection charge, drill the delay, reinstall the ejection charge and reinstall the ejection charge cap.

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Many things sold in hobby shops require the consumer to assemble, handle, or use things in a safe manner. That's one thing that separates a hobby shop from a toy store. In any case, The procedure for drilling the delays in the motors isn't that big of a deal.

And, as I mentioned before, hobby shops are not the only vendors of rocket motors (though I suspect these new motors are aimed at hobby shops). These new motors may be nice for on-site sales because there is less effort and time involved to set up and use them.

-- Roger

I agree that the procedure for drilling a delay in an RMS or LMS motor is easy and clear.

I do not agree that any procedure for disassembling a pre-assembled single use motor and drilling the delay is easy or safe for an average consumer.

The consumer would need to remove an ejection charge cap, pour out the ejection charge, drill the delay, reinstall the ejection charge and reinstall the ejection charge cap. That is nothing like RMS prep (including delay adjustment) and loading.

What if they did not get all of the black powder out before drilling?

What are they supposed to store the black powder in when it is removed?

These are not issues with RMS or LMS.

jadebox said:

Many things sold in hobby shops require the consumer to assemble, handle, or use things in a safe manner. That's one thing that separates a hobby shop from a toy store. In any case, The procedure for drilling the delays in the motors isn't that big of a deal.

And, as I mentioned before, hobby shops are not the only vendors of rocket motors (though I suspect these new motors are aimed at hobby shops). These new motors may be nice for on-site sales because there is less effort and time involved to set up and use them.

-- Roger

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We used to do this all the time in the old days. That said, one of the issues is that you don't know the physical length of the delay in a SU motor, so drill depth is somewhat of a guess. Better to buy the motor with the correct delay. Beyond that, anyone familiar with reloads should be able to handle this in a safe manner. Those that don't have that experience and want to do it anyways should probably seek some guidance and oversight on their first attempt.

For stupid adults who want to do anything marginally dangerous on their own in an uncontrolled environment, I find I have little sympathy when things go badly.

shreadvector said:

What if they did not get all of the black powder out before drilling?

What are they supposed to store the black powder in when it is removed?

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I suspect that the instructions for the motors and delay tool (and a little common sense) will address those issues.

These are not issues with RMS or LMS.

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RMS and LMS have similar issues. What happens if all of the ejection charge powder doesn't fit in the well? What happens if you spill the ejection charge? What if you need more or less ejection charge than supplied? Those scenarios are not uncommon when assembing reloads.

These motors are not toys and Aerotech is not going to market them as toys. If or when they show up on hobby shop shelves, they won't be any harder or more dangerous to configure and use than a hundred other things in the store.

-- Roger

shreadvector said:

Initiator001 can comment in case I get this wrong, but I think he clearly said that "It would not be a good idea for the general consumer to have to drill their own delay times on SU motors sold in retail outlets." in other words, these are normal single use motors that already have the black powder ejection charges and caps installed at the factory. For an average consumer to drill the delay, they would have to remove the cap, pour out the black powder, drill the delay, pour back in the black powder and reinstall the cap.

Average consumers who buy single use motors in retail outlets cannot be assumed to have the knowledge of safe handling of loose black powder.

RMS and LMS are different as the BP is in a container and the installation is simpler (but it is still a common failure mode - how many times do people report they had a failure of the ejection charge to fire on an RMS motor? This is almost always user error.)

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I took his statement to mean he doesn't think adjustable delays are a good idea in SU motors sold in retail outlets. Re-reading his statement, I still think that's what he means.

I still think it's a good idea. It would let retailers stock more motors and give more options. And I'd be able to just stock up on a pile of say, F50T-10A's and not have to buy F50T-4, F50T-7, F50T-10 and guess how many of each I'll want.

shreadvector said:

Maybe I am missing something, but who made those claims?

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My remark wasn't aimed specifically at your comments, Fred. The 'hobby shop won't check for certification" comment and earlier posts in this thread about AT being irresponsible for one thing or another were mostly what I was referring to.

CTI has a drilling tool also. Which you need to learn how to use. For their MPR and HPR motors. Some of which require proof of certification. And they made a rocket-killer N5800. And then started a contest to see who could fly one highest. And rockets were shredded left and right.

How come people aren't criticizing CTI? Oh, right, they aren't Aerotech. :eyeroll:

Derek

BTW, for those that don't get sarcasm, I'm not implying that CTI did anything wrong, 'cause they didn't. But neither did AT.

What do I care, anyway. I fly only research. That and Jerry Irvine motors, whenever possible.

shreadvector said:

I agree that the procedure for drilling a delay in an RMS or LMS motor is easy and clear.

I do not agree that any procedure for disassembling a pre-assembled single use motor and drilling the delay is easy or safe for an average consumer.

The consumer would need to remove an ejection charge cap, pour out the ejection charge, drill the delay, reinstall the ejection charge and reinstall the ejection charge cap. That is nothing like RMS prep (including delay adjustment) and loading.

What if they did not get all of the black powder out before drilling?

What are they supposed to store the black powder in when it is removed?

These are not issues with RMS or LMS.

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If I recalled it has been stated earlier that the powder is NOT in the well when the motor is sent out of the plant..It is installed by the flier as he/she preps the motor after doing a delay adjustment(if needed) and the cap is then installed..

Cease and Desist letter sent to AT. Images of the letter in its entirety on the AT facebook page, here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151531143308955.1073741826.159005948954&type=1

N

YES. For the new " Pro-SU™ Motor Line" the delays are designed to be adjusted by the user and the ejection charge is not installed at the factory.

Instructions are online (and very, very good):
https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/u...a4dccc6_Pro-SU Instructions 2-12-13 small.pdf

These new motors are *not* the same as regular single use motors that average people can buy at retail at a store. Those single use motors have the black powder ejection charge installed at the factory with a cap over the top. I have clearly stated my concerns about average consumers removing pre-installed balck powder to perform drilling on a motor.

I wonder how many idiots will attempt to remove the ejection charge from an Estes black powder motor and then drill that delay to make it shorter and then attempt to re-install the ejection charge?

Pantherjon said:

If I recalled it has been stated earlier that the powder is NOT in the well when the motor is sent out of the plant..It is installed by the flier as he/she preps the motor after doing a delay adjustment(if needed) and the cap is then installed..

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aaaannnnnnddddddd aerotech is almost sued. I guess I better go buy one real quick. Wouldn't it be cool if AT and CTI just got along really well? Think of the motors.... :drool:

Wingarcher said:

Cease and Desist letter sent to AT. Images of the letter in its entirety on the AT facebook page, here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151531143308955.1073741826.159005948954&type=1

N

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Hey CTI...cease and desist your freaking lawyers or I will cease and desist buying your products. I don't have a lot of CTI hardware but I am real close to putting it up for sale...

First thing I thought when AT announced this on FB - "Pro-SU? That's gonna get CTI all itchy inside." Sure enough, it did.

AT has been for the longest time a leader in the HPR industry. No other manufacturer has come close to what AT has been able to produce as far as innovation as well as the production demand. That is, until CTI came along. I would have thought nothing of the introduction of the new line if AT had put a little more thought into the name of their product line rather than ripping off "PRO-x" by other manufacturers. Instead, "this? really?"

As an avid AT consumer, I'm a little disgusted by the comments on the Aerotech Facebook page - they are currently posting photos of "PRO______" products. They even cited PROLINE ROCKETRY. Yeah, PROLINE ROCKETRY. I'm sorry, that doesn't even come close to "PRO-SU" or "PRO38" or "PRO54"

AT may be able to stir the pot amongst the hardcore AT fans out there, but that won't hold up in court. Given how popular CTI has become, I don't think that the actions of boycotting CTI products by consumers that dabble in both product lines will faze CTI sales at all.

I'd like to see something worked out between the two manufacturers. It's a bummer that it has to come down to this.

DAllen said:

Hey CTI...cease and desist your freaking lawyers or I will cease and desist buying your products. I don't have a lot of CTI hardware but I am real close to putting it up for sale...

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Me too- if Anthony did not call Gary before sending a c and d letter that is pathetic.

Well, CTI seems to have staked out 'PRO' as a trademark. This is just a civil matter. If you don't defend your trademarks, then you might as well not try to establish them in the first place.

In my view, 'PRO' is so ubiquitous that is it is unlikely to carry them vary far. A C&D letter is little more then that. Things only get serious if they press ahead with a civil case, which would be costly to both parties. Their hope here is that AT will back down without that happening I suspect. And I suspect that is unlikely as well.

In any case, it seems unlikely to effect me as a consumer. I will use both in any case mostly based on price, availability, and suitability to my goals. What happens between these two suppliers is between them.

I bought lots of "Pro-Jets" many many years ago.

Well anyone offended by the C&D is welcome to send me their CTI hardware for safe keeping.

Do I wish CTI and AT would get along? Hell yeah! Our hobby is too small to deal with this kind of crap. I'll still buy from both but am curious to see how this goes down and if the "court of public opinion" can help these two get along. Somehow I think that the "winner" for this might be Loki....

...the losers will indeed be us, the consumers in the end.

No real winners are going to come out of this...this is probably headed to court. Ultimately, WE the consumers will lose as legal costs have to be passed on to someone.

If AT had called their new SU motors something closer to Pro29/38/54/etc, then I think CTI might have a legitimate case (in my eyes). Going after PRO-SU seems frivolous and more of a turf battle than anything else. What about Pro-Jet? Estes Pro SU motors? Proline rocketry? Anything that says PRO in it?

I don't fly many CTI motors for lack of a regular dealer in my area and the prices being more for the same thrusties. While I was contemplating a Pro54-6XL motor for MD purposes, I may sell all of my CTI hardware now instead. This hobby is too small for in-fighting like this. Since we're not fighting the ATF any longer, let's fight each other instead?

DAllen said:

Hey CTI...cease and desist your freaking lawyers or I will cease and desist buying your products. I don't have a lot of CTI hardware but I am real close to putting it up for sale...

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Same here, except I will flatten my cases with a sledge hammer so no one else can use them. Pro is a prefix used by thousands of companies to represent their products. The rocketry community is small we are all capable of distinguishing between the two. We don't need any hassels!!

I have to side with CTI on this one.

When I first saw the "PRO" on the Aerotech single use....font is the same, bolded the same, italicized the same, same ratio of font size....

It's close enough to the CTI trademark that I did a double-take, thinking that CTI was making the single use motors sold by Aerotech!


All the best, James

DAllen said:

Hey CTI...cease and desist your freaking lawyers or I will cease and desist buying your products. I don't have a lot of CTI hardware but I am real close to putting it up for sale...

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Hey Dave I'll buy those cases...........and make a nice wind chime.

Fdog said:

It's close enough to the CTI trademark that I did a double-take, thinking that CTI was making the single use motors sold by Aerotech!


All the best, James

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And I thought that CTI was selling propellant made by Aerotech when I first seen White Thunder. You know Blue Thunder, White Lightning. :wink: