MMX igniters

Hey everyone! I have been wanting to get into mmx for a long time but have been very hesitant. I have been trying to do as much research on the topic as possible. My main issue is getting a reliable launch system set up. I know how to set up a mmx rod onto my existing rod, but my real problem is the ignition system. I have read a lot of talk about the many different ways to set up an igniter for a mmx motor without using a quest mmx system, but have not seen anything explaining how to do any of these set ups. I really am kind of lost, ive heard things about using a toothpick, a wadded paper method, and many more! I would appreciate it if you guys would take the time to explain some of these methods to me, pictures would be nice to!! Thanks for all of your help, this website is a great resource!

One of the TRF gang who goes by "Micromeister" has a ton of info and pix posted here on TRF (2.0) as well as in the archives (TRF 1.0). Have you tried using the Search button in the header? There are literally years-worth of posts packed away in there.

OK, first of all, igniting a MicroMaxx motor is really no different that igniting any other model rocket motor, except for the fact that the motor and the motor nozzle are very small.

There has been one major change in the ignition system for MicroMaxx during the past 11 years. The early Silo system that utilized the plug-in QMX (as in Quest MicroMaxx) igniters has been replaced by a much more conventional system utilizing 2-lead igniters that are connected to a firing system with microclips. There have been some slight accommodations, though, to deal with the very small size of these motors.

If you are at all familiar with Quest's previous generation standard igniter, the Q2, then the current MicroMaxx igniter should look very familiar. It is a Q2 without any pyrogen on the bridgewire. It lacks the pyrogen because it needs to fit into the very small pinhole of a nozzle on the motor. Now because of the size of that nozzle, there are no igniter plugs for it. That creates an issue of retaining the igniter once it is inserted in the nozzle. there are two standard methods for doing this: the tissue wad method that is used by Micromeister John McCoy, and the toothpick method that is used by everyone else.

If you go back far enough to remember the way that model rocket igniters were kept in nozzles during the "pre-plug" era, then you'll recognize John's method. After inserting the igniter, he uses a very fine sharp point to push a tiny piece of flameproof wadding up into the nozzle between the leads. It sounds simple enough, but getting that paper bit up into the nozzle far enough to stay put has proven to be a rather daunting challenge for most of us. As far as I know, he is the only person who seems to be able to do it reliably and consistently. This method would be more widely used if more people were able to do it properly. It is the classic way to retain an igniter. It's a good approach, but it's just a bit too hard for most people to pull off at the scale.

The method used in the vast majority of MicroMaxx launches, however, doesn't use a plug at all. After inserting the motor into the rocket, you insert the igniter into the nozzle and then push the tip of a toothpick in between the leads just enough to stay in place while you load the rocket onto the launch rod. As you lower it down, the other end of the toothpick eventually contacts the blast deflector. In that arrangement, the rocket is essentially sitting on the tip of the igniter. The tip if the igniter has been inserted into the nozzle, and the nozzle is sitting on the upper tip of the toothpick.

Please note that the toothpick tip is not jammed into the nozzle in the manner of a plug; it was only pushed in lightly to keep it in place until the rocket could be lowered down onto the rod and propped up. If you wanted to, you could then easily knock it out from under the rocket with a flick of your finger. The combined weight of the rocket and motor is really the only force that is keeping the tip inserted. There was much misunderstanding about this as the toothpick method was becoming more widely adopted. The toothpick is not a plug, and it is not to be forced up into the nozzle like one. Once you have the rocket propped up on the pad with gravity keeping the toothpick and igniter in the motor nozzle, you can then proceed to hook up the clips to the igniter leads in the usual manner.

If you are using the old style igniters you can refer to the attached figure (included with all of our kits) that shows you how to take them apart and then install them into the motors using a tooth pick to hold them in place (note: ONLY recommended for the newer micromaxx II motors (black paper casing) and not for the micromaxx I motors (brown plastic casing))

If you are using the new style igniters (see next image), the principle is the same, you just don't have to take them apart...

Also, as an aside, the last figure is an example of a very low cost launch pad that fits on a standard pad and also fits inside your range box

hope this helps!
jim

Actually the most important thing about Micro Igniters for me is that it be as Quick, Easy and reliable as possible. the two methods I use below have proven over the last 11 or so years to be just that; so quick no other method can compare, and reliable to the point I can't recall the last time I had a micro maxx mis-fire. They just don't happen with these to methods. I've Tried in vane to cause a micro CATO with the wadding ball method unsuccessfully in both MMX-I and MMX-II motors. that is NOT the case with a two firmly jambed in toothpick. I've seen several on our sport flying range. It's been my expereince once someone Catos one they almost always choose one or both of the methods below. While I like the Q2 igniters better the the Old style plastic plug Quest igniters For my money (and very little of it) a roll of 30ga bare nichrome and a little time while watching TV make about 100 igniters in an hour.. no more worring about what will or will not fly on the first push of the launch button.
Do these take a LITTLE Practice? Yes, but very little. The single largest complaint I hear from people is the can't get the darn things to fly!.. it's an igniter problem. Fixing it is as easy as finding a decent pair of needle nose pliers, side cutters or scissors and a tiny ziploc baggie to store them in. I do use pyrogen tipped Q2's for micro clusteres, either ones I got from Bill in 2004 or ones I'm dipping myself. but those are specialty igniters for everyday one motor models a 3/8" to 1/2" bend in the center of up to 2" of 30ga bare nichrome is all that's needed with any 6 to 12volt powered controller. I prefer 12Volt system with my new Quest Pistol grip contoller that came with my super Value sets just to be sure but the old estes electrobeam will work if you really must use one.

For Those who haven't seen or don't remember how the Wadding/plug method works. below a reposting of the picture which should help. the tiny piece of FP wadding needed is shown as well. recently I've found the point of a bamboo skewer stick works just fine for this stuffing operation.
Incidentally this method is not difficult, Mark for some reason seems to think he can't do it but we have just about all the micro flying folks around here using this method. I'm 6-1 over 300 lbs with big stubby fingers just like most, this method take not longer then it does to install an igniter in a standard 13mm motor the same way. Truely the only trick is picking off a small enough corner of wadding to start. The old "Practice makes Permanant, not prefect!" adage holds very true for this procedure I Like this method best because I can prep a days worth of micro motors at home the night before the launch making on site model prep as quick as inserting the motor.

The other (2nd best) Method I use involves a slightly different microclip set-up attached to your launcher that allows the model to actually slide down the rod and onto the bare folded 30 to 34ga nichrome wire igniter mounted between a pair of smooth jaw 1-1/8" micro-clips soldered to 18 to 22ga stranded copper wires that are then twisted into a coil and attached to the launcher base sitting up a couple inches below the models (See the first 2 photos below). This system works beautifully allowing the model to rest on the coil with it's weight supported by the stiffness of the twisted & coiled copper wires. I've been using this system about 10 years and haven't lost a single set of wires to the heat of ignition The coil allows the igniter to be positioned whereever needed for any size or diameter micro model.

Since I've started using the newer MMX Q2 igniters, I've yet to have any problems with ignition.

I re-use the Q2 igniters. The one in the picture was used this morning, shown right after launch - for the third time!
I took the picture for my blog, the clips were still attached after launch.
Maybe my batteries are old, they just don't seem to burn through the bridge wire. I am using a Estes Electron Beam from a starter set with 6 volts. (Four AA batteries inside)
If you use a 6 volt system on MMX be prepared to hold the button down for a second or two, it'll go!
Pyrogen tipped igniters start quickly, uncoated MMX igniters can take a moment longer.

If you use a toothpick to hold the igniter in place, I've had better luck with the square toothpicks. There seems to be a little more friction in the nozzle. It's like putting a square peg in a round hole. Just be sure the tip of the igniter is all the way in, touching the propellant. You'll feel it stop - don't force it! Installed correctly, the toothpick helps keep the igniter wires separate.

Here is the "Crazy Jim" down and dirty simple way I do it.

The recommended Quest way for the new igniters;

I modified it by drilling a hole in the side of my rod adapter and inserting a wire.

Then slip the little tube over igniter & onto wire.

Slide rocket down rod and onto igniter tip. Wire will bend easily to accommodate different diameter rockets so it will always fit.

Your done. You don't need anything to hold the igniter in. Weight of rocket holds it in position.


Edit: the little tubes come with each purchase of motor and igniter pack.

I have since modified the system so the weight of club wires & clips don't effect my igniters by pulling on them.

Just added a set of terminal blocks to the side of motor casing and micro clips.

Just clip the club/your own controller leads to the terminal blocks.

Finally I made a "double" set up for flying the micro Duece and other 2 motor rockets.

Now I have dual set up which also works for drag racing.

I really need to take some pics and show the final version.

In it I glued 1inch pieces of D motors to the pad that act a receivers for the 18mm "rods"


Spent 24 mm motors [D motors work well as adapters for flying 18mm in 24mm motor mounts.

Edit: the igniters are NOT properly twisted for cluster, just staged for pictures.

Thank you for all of your replys, i had seen many pictures of ignition systems but never really understood what they were accomplishing! As soon as i am able to i plan to order some Flis Kit Micros and some motors. Cant Wait!!

It is a testament to John's extensive experience with all things Micro and the skills that he possesses that he has developed and perfected a number of sophisticated techniques with them. I admit that even though I have been a MicroMaxx fan since 2004, I don't fly them with anything like the frequency that Micromeister does (and I'm not sure that anyone else does, either), so I'm a bit more fumble-fingered with these tiny wonders. I've made many attempts to use wadding to hold in the igniters without success. But no doubt that's mostly me, though. I was exaggerating a little bit when I said that only John can use John's method. I'd love to someday see a live demonstration of it, because I'm sure that I must be missing some key element.

I developed the toothpick method on my own (I really doubt that I was the first, though) because it was just easier for me to use out at the range. It may not be the best or most elegant way to hold an igniter in the nozzle, but it has the virtue of being simple and quick, and it's probably easy for a newcomer to MicroMaxx to use. That's why I present it when threads like this come up. John, you mention the one biggest issue with it, namely the risk of a cato. Whenever I outline the procedure, I devote some time to explaining that the toothpick is not to be used in the same way as an igniter plug, and shouldn't be forced into the nozzle so that it stays firmly in place. Instead of an igniter plug, a closer parallel would be the dowels that HPR fliers use to hold igniters with very long leads up inside their longest, largest core motors. Not exactly the same, but that's sort of the idea with the toothpick. It is used as a post, not as a plug.

Personally, I feel that the few catos that have been reported were probably not the result of the toothpick becoming completely stuck in and blocking the nozzle. I have a hard time envisioning how that could happen with these motors. Rather, I suspect that the actual cause was nozzle damage and deformation that was caused by wooden tip being forced much too firmly into the relatively soft and crumbly clay nozzle so that it would remain solidly stuck in it. But if one understands what the actual purpose of the toothpick is, one can completely avoid this problem. Both Estes igniter plugs and particularly the old Quest Tiger Taks were and are wedged much more firmly into the nozzles of the motors that they are designed for than the tip of the toothpick is, and yet their motors have no problem blowing them back out at ignition. (Tiger Taks actually hooked onto the inside of the nozzle!)

I greatly respect your experience, your skill and the depth of your research into this branch (actually, power level) of the hobby, John. I welcome each installment of our friendly ongoing debate over this issue, because it gives you an opportunity to explain your concerns and it gives me an opportunity to answer them. It is never my intend to denigrate any of your techniques, which as I have said, are quite sophisticated and elegant. I simply mean to present another option. The final choice is up to the user.

BTW, I'm not sure that either one of us has anything on Crazy Jim!

MarkII said:

I greatly respect your experience, your skill and the depth of your research into this branch (actually, power level) of the hobby, John. I welcome each installment of our friendly ongoing debate over this issue, because it gives you an opportunity to explain your concerns and it gives me an opportunity to answer them. It is never my intend to denigrate any of your techniques, which as I have said, are quite sophisticated and elegant. I simply mean to present another option. The final choice is up to the user.

Click to expand...

10-4 Mark:
No harmful intent ever precieved Turely I must be getting old or something, as I wasn't aware or don't recall our discussing your inventing the toothpick method. I actually thought it was something Quest came up with as an alternative to the Silo plastic plug-in igniters. My apologiest for the oversight. Nor is it my intent to dismis or denigrate the method as an option simply to point out it does have a couple things that need to be taken into account and watched closely in practice.
As hcmbanjo already posted the use of square rather then round tooth picks seems to greatly lower the occurance of very pressure jambed toothpick catos. They are one of the causes discovered locally. In 6 of the 9 documented micro motor catos i've personally had contact with the users have shown a stack of round toothpicks in use. The remaining three were litterally twigs from the ground sharpened with a pocket knife again for the most part round in shape, ALL nine pushed into the nozzle with enough force to set the igniter as frimly as an igniter plug. My feeling is this might well be something that should be a Standard for the method, that is starting with a Square toothpick. The other main concern is as you've mentioned many times the toothpick is NOT to be used as an igniter plug, Rather as a Helper standoff that just happens to also be holding in the igniter. This is (again in my opinion) the single biggest problem with the method. My reasoning behind this is Folks are used to using PLUGs and wadding balls to physically HOLD the igniter in the motor in every other impulse class and size motor. Changing the mindset in preparing micro motors is I believe the challange to the method. Perhaps the Square peg in the round hole can help eleminate the overpressure CATO potential allowing a firmer setting of the pick to take place? For that we'll just have to do some more experimenting.

Actually a video demonstration of the Wadding ball/tape method is an excellent Idea. I'll have to work on it.
Your absolutely correct about Ol'e Crazy Jim LOL!!!

i do not use a toothpick.

I use a sliver of balsa.

Easy to install. No danger of overpressurization - even on the MicroMaxxI-1 motors.

All of the new Quest methods of supporting the igniter and then lowering the rocket onto the igniter work great - even for kids. We've ahd a bunch of kids dabbling with them at recent launches. The first time the've seen micros and I show them how they should set them on the pad and they do fine setting them up on their own.

As a matter of fact, I'm now down to my last 50 of the motors, so a re-order will need to occur later this year.

shreadvector said:

i do not use a toothpick.

I use a sliver of balsa.

Easy to install. No danger of overpressurization - even on the MicroMaxxI-1 motors.

All of the new Quest methods of supporting the igniter and then lowering the rocket onto the igniter work great - even for kids. We've ahd a bunch of kids dabbling with them at recent launches. The first time the've seen micros and I show them how they should set them on the pad and they do fine setting them up on their own.

Click to expand...

Excellent Point Fred: Sliver of balsa, Not enough density go cause compacting problems but enough to hold the igniter and the weight of the model.

I don't know. After 6 years of launching MicroMaxx, I think that it's time that I ditch my rickety ad hoc system and build myself an honest-to-goodness launch pad for them. I've actually been thinking about this for awhile now. I do have the Quest pad, but I want to build something that will make it easier to launch clusters. And after looking at Micro's and Jim's setups, I've got a good idea of what I want. I mostly blame Jim for pushing me off the fence, though. After seeing his pad, how can I go back to doing what I've always been doing?

Well guys I just finished the early testing on a Micro Maxx semi-permanent Igniter set-up.
It's made to fit my coiled microclip set-up for single motors only.
So far it's had about 30+ heatings (about 2 second button holddown) for ignition. the Nichrome element needs to be wiped off after each launch but really shown no sign of decay or degradation so far. Does get a small coating of BP burn residue that needs to be removed by wiping with a rag or very light rub with a sandpaper sheet.

Once I have a bit more time and launch data to share, I'll give a bit more detail, but I'm thinking this is gonna eliminate having to bend all those 30ga nichrome igniters i've been using LOL!!!! This may also be the End to the type of single motor micro ignition problems we've been discussing as well.... Keep everything you have two of crossed

PS: it's also working perfectly in my Micro floating head Piston launcher set up which was the original intention behind the research, that was to eliminate the need for a new plug-in ignitor for each flight.