Is There A 24mm Composite Single Use Without Thrust Ring?

My TLP TAN-SAM has a Dual Motor Mount, 24mm ofcourse, but the tubes are right next to each other.
I know it will fly fine on Black Powder D12 Motors, but I may want to get some more Performance out of it eventually.
Thrust Rings on Composite Motors would not work for this Rocket in 24mm.
I've seen the Aerotech D21, which is an 18mm, and according to the Picture on the Apogee Site, it does'nt have a Thrust Ring, so I could just make a Set of Adapters to use them in this Rocket.
Are there any other Single-use Composites that would work with this Motor Mount?
On future Dual-24mm Builds I'll make my own Motor Mounts from now on that will accomodate Thrust Ring Motors.
Thanks.

You could probably finagle a couple of AT 24/40 reload casings in there if you align the notches in the closure correctly. I think CTI 24mm motors have the same notch, but don't hold me to that.

TopRamen said:

My TLP TAN-SAM has a Dual Motor Mount, 24mm ofcourse, but the tubes are right next to each other.
I know it will fly fine on Black Powder D12 Motors, but I may want to get some more Performance out of it eventually.
Thrust Rings on Composite Motors would not work for this Rocket in 24mm.
I've seen the Aerotech D21, which is an 18mm, and according to the Picture on the Apogee Site, it does'nt have a Thrust Ring, so I could just make a Set of Adapters to use them in this Rocket.
Are there any other Single-use Composites that would work with this Motor Mount?
On future Dual-24mm Builds I'll make my own Motor Mounts from now on that will accomodate Thrust Ring Motors.
Thanks.

Click to expand...

You can grind them off on one side carefully with sandpaper.

TheAviator said:

You could probably finagle a couple of AT 24/40 reload casings in there if you align the notches in the closure correctly. I think CTI 24mm motors have the same notch, but don't hold me to that.

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That would be Ideal, as it would allow for a greater variety of options, but I'de hate to have to buy 2 24/40 Cases just to try to see if it would work.

Try grinding off a little bit of the thrust ring. See if that works.

CarVac said:

You can grind them off on one side carefully with sandpaper.

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I knew I could do that, but it would scare a lot of folks here, so I would'nt be able to talk about it without fear of getting flamed.
I would feel perfectly safe doing that, but I just don't feel like getting a Safety Lecture.
Thanks for the Responses so far, and I likely will consider doing this, and then just never talk about it or if I share a Launch Video, and someone asks, I'll just respond, "Magic!!!".

TopRamen said:

I knew I could do that, but it would scare a lot of folks here, so I would'nt be able to talk about it without fear of getting flamed.
I would feel perfectly safe doing that, but I just don't feel like getting a Safety Lecture..

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that's why I don't suggest it, I will go check if I have fired one to test it

What if you kinda stacked then so that one thrust ring sat on top of the other?

Nate

nute said:

What if you kinda stacked then so that one thrust ring sat on top of the other?

Nate

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That sounds like a fine Idea indeed!!! Safe, and, I don't believe that the 1/4" of difference would make a noticeable difference.

I dug out my Tan San kit and did a quick dry fit of the motor mount. The AT 24/40 cases fit into it without issues if you align the notches. In fact they fit even if only one notch is aligned. The cost per flight of these reloads is much lower then single use and there is no extra hazmat fee. The F series for this case are perfect matches for TLP kits. The F24 white lightning is my favorite for the TLP Pershing and I have even clustered 3 of them for the TLP Nike Ajax. They are heavier then D12 engines so that has to be taken into consideration when calculating stability. You would have to friction fit them however and the interior part of the motor hook might need to be filed a bit.

terryg said:

I dug out my Tan San kit and did a quick dry fit of the motor mount. The AT 24/40 cases fit into it without issues if you align the notches. In fact it fits even if only one notch is aligned. The cost per flight of these reloads is much lower then single use and there is no extra hazmat fee. The F series for this case are perfect matches for TLP kits. The F24 white lightning is my favorite for the TLP Peshing and I have even clustered 3 of them for the TLP Nike Ajax. They are heavier then D12 engines so that has to be taken into consideration when calculating stability. You would have to friction fit them however.

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Thanks for testing it out, I appreciate that.
I guess it would'nt hurt to have 2 24/40 Cases, and I plan on learning Reloadables on that Case eventually anyway, so I'll maybe try to work it into next months Rocket Budget.

Older Aerotech 24mm motors came without thrust rings, but a couple of years ago I started getting them in new-style plastic cases that look like miniature G80s. You may find a distributor who still has old stock.

Also, filing down thrust rings would make them research motors. This may be acceptable to you or not, mostly depending on who you fly with.

Ari.

iter said:

Older Aerotech 24mm motors came without thrust rings, but a couple of years ago I started getting them in new-style plastic cases that look like miniature G80s. You may find a distributor who still has old stock.

Also, filing down thrust rings would make them research motors. This may be acceptable to you or not, mostly depending on who you fly with.

Ari.

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That would be acceptable to me, as I fly with myself, so I'm my own RSO and all that Jazz.
That said, out of Respect for the Rocketry Community and the Hobby in General, I would not want to be seen as promoting or partaking in any Practices that could be construed as unsafe, especially if the Practices are entirely unnecessary in the first place.
For the sake of this Rocket, I think what I'll do to try it, is get a 3 Pack of the D21 18mm Aerotech Motors, and just make up two Adapters. Then I'll have an extra Motor too.
Additionally, I've heard in the D21 Thread that these smaller Composite burn considerably hotter than BP Motors, so by using an 18mm with an Adapter, I will limit the Heat transferred into my Motor Mount Assembly, which was not designed for Composites in the first place. I'de hat to cook my nice Epoxy.
That will suit me just fine for now. Heck, I have'nt even launched her on the D12s' yet, but that's only due to the Weather, not lack of Motors.

Thanks for all of the prompt and well thought out Replies to my Inquiry.

One more of these and I'll be able to play with 18mm D21 Composite Single Use Motors.

A spent 24 mm Estes casing makes a perfect adapter. Their ID ios 18mm.

Ari.

Thanks Iter. I had considered that at first.

I had the stuff on hand to make some near Duplicates of the Semroc Adapter from my Blue Bird Zero which fits the TAN-SAM almost perfectly, so I'm going that route.

Just notch the thrust ring I do, Nothing wrong with it tell the safety $&%@ to get bent. (cant say the word it will get the thread locked or deleted)


TA

Now I can safely fly the D21 Single Use Composites. That will be good enough for me for now.

thobin said:

Just notch the thrust ring I do, Nothing wrong with it tell the safety $&%@ to get bent. (cant say the word it will get the thread locked or deleted)


TA

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Now now, can't go pissin' off the RSO ! :wink:

Top, I know the letter of the law says "No motor mods allowed" but we're talking about what ? Flattening a 1/8 inch area (3/16th, 1/4 even), the results of which will be a more secure setup for that side by side cluster ? Hmmm...

samb said:

Now now, can't go pissin' off the RSO ! :wink:

Top, I know the letter of the law says "No motor mods allowed" but we're talking about what ? Flattening a 1/8 inch area (3/16th, 1/4 even), the results of which will be a more secure setup for that side by side cluster ? Hmmm...

Click to expand...

I'll likely never even fly at a Sanctioned event, so what RSOs' think of me is not a Concern, but as I said earlier, I'm just trying to remain in the good Graces of those here who care about such matters.
As you can see, my 18mm Adapters will allow the use of the D21 SU, or even the 18mm Reloadable which can handle a D24. I'm happy enough with this solution for this particular Rocket, and in the Future will just make my own MMT when doing a Dual-24mm.
The D21 SU with my Adapter weighs less than a Black Powder D12, so weight is not even an issue, just incase anyone was curious. Each Adapter weighs 7 Grams.
Before spinning them on the Drill Press using my homemade 18mm Mandrel, I soaked the outside of each one in Super Thin CA so they would'nt fray as I sanded them to the perfect fit.

TopRamen said:

I'll likely never even fly at a Sanctioned event, so what RSOs' think of me is not a Concern, but as I said earlier, I'm just trying to remain in the good Graces of those here who care about such matters.
As you can see, my 18mm Adapters will allow the use of the D21 SU, or even the 18mm Reloadable which can handle a D24. I'm happy enough with this solution for this particular Rocket, and in the Future will just make my own MMT when doing a Dual-24mm.
The D21 SU with my Adapter weighs less than a Black Powder D12, so weight is not even an issue, just incase anyone was curious. Each Adapter weighs 7 Grams.
Before spinning them on the Drill Press using my homemade 18mm Mandrel, I soaked the outside of each one in Super Thin CA so they would'nt fray as I sanded them to the perfect fit.

Click to expand...

Sounds good. You're a buildin' fool, son ! :grin:

Ahh... Good boy. We do not want to prove Godwin's law...

thobin said:

Just notch the thrust ring I do, Nothing wrong with it tell the safety $&%@ to get bent. (cant say the word it will get the thread locked or deleted)


TA

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The CTI 24mm closure has a notch and the Estes-style hooks do hold them in place.

Adding or notching the thrust ring is not considered to be a motor mod. There was a NAR bulletin several years back that specifically addresses this issue. Drilling out the nozzle or modifying the delay on an Estes BP motor is... it affects the OPERATION of the motor.

samb said:

Now now, can't go pissin' off the RSO ! :wink:

Top, I know the letter of the law says "No motor mods allowed" but we're talking about what ? Flattening a 1/8 inch area (3/16th, 1/4 even), the results of which will be a more secure setup for that side by side cluster ? Hmmm...

Click to expand...

cerving said:

Adding or notching the thrust ring is not considered to be a motor mod. There was a NAR bulletin several years back that specifically addresses this issue. Drilling out the nozzle or modifying the delay on an Estes BP motor is... it affects the OPERATION of the motor.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the Info.

My only concern with your design is that the motor's nozzle may not be flush with the bottom of the rocket. I say this because in your pictures, the mounts look recessed in the main tube by quite a bit. If the motors nozzle is not even or flush with the bottom of the rocket, 2 bad things are going to happen.
1) The bottom of the rocket is going to get burned by the exhaust of the motors. The old Estes Omega had mounts where the motor would be flush with the bottom of the main tube. The bottoms of both stages would get burned from the exhaust.
And
2) If the motors' nozzles are not at least flush with the end of the main body tube, some of the motors' thrust will be lost because of what's called Brugnoli Lock, at least I think it's called that. I can't remember the exact term. Somebody here can help me out here with the correct term.

I would use 2 E9 or 2 E12 motors in your rocket. The extra length of them will not hurt. Use a small cable tie to secure them to the motor hooks.

DanFrank said:

My only concern with your design is that the motor's nozzle may not be flush with the bottom of the rocket. I say this because in your pictures, the mounts look recessed in the main tube by quite a bit. If the motors nozzle is not even or flush with the bottom of the rocket, 2 bad things are going to happen.
1) The bottom of the rocket is going to get burned by the exhaust of the motors. The old Estes Omega had mounts where the motor would be flush with the bottom of the main tube. The bottoms of both stages would get burned from the exhaust.
And
2) If the motors' nozzles are not at least flush with the end of the main body tube, some of the motors' thrust will be lost because of what's called Brugnoli Lock, at least I think it's called that. I can't remember the exact term. Somebody here can help me out here with the correct term.

I would use 2 E9 or 2 E12 motors in your rocket. The extra length of them will not hurt. Use a small cable tie to secure them to the motor hooks.

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E9 would not safely get this Bird up to Speed.
Black Powder E Motors move my CG back. The Instructions actually want the Motor Mounts nearly an inch further into the Tube.
It's a TLP Tan-Sam, and like most TLP Kits, they want you to put the Motor Mount WAAAAAY up in there.
It should be fine like it is, but if it scorches my Epoxy and Two Layers of Coupler, I'll add Aluminum Foil Tape. I wanted to do that anyway, as I have an Aluminum Foil Tape Fetish, but I'm trying to not add any more unnecessary Weight to the Airframe. Atleast until after the first Flight.

With recessed motor mounts like a number of TLP have, just be sure you model is raised say, 7 or 8" above the blast plate and you shouldn't have much problem with charring.

Jerome

JeromeK99 said:

With recessed motor mounts like a number of TLP have, just be sure you model is raised say, 7 or 8" above the blast plate and you shouldn't have much problem with charring.

Jerome

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I've already wrapped Tape around my Rail at the right Height. This one is "On Deck" and ready to go, as soon as the Weather is cooperative.

Another great thing about having these adapters is that I can use them in other TLP Builds. They will work especially good in the Martel AS.37: that I'm working on right now, because it is very stability sensitive. Being able to fly a D21 in an adapter will be perfect for this Bird.