4F black powder

OK, the book says to use 4F black powder for ejection charges and I can't seem to find any. There are sites where you can order GOEX hybrid powder in very large quantities. I'm not sure this is a good substitute and I don't wish to spend this much. Would 3F work OK? It seems to be readily available. All these high power people with altimeter based ejection must be using something... what??

Google is your friend:

https://mainepowderhouse.com/goex-black-powder-4f-25lbs/

https://www.powderinc.com/catalog

This is just 2.

I use FFF in a pistol. Granted, the lead ball forces pressure to build up versus a loosely packed ejection charge, but I think you'll be fine. You might just need to use a little more FFF than FFFF.

Most of the online sources (including powderinc if I'm not mistaken) won't sell in anything less than 5 lb. quantities. Which is a LOT of powder. In my searches, I only found two that would sell in smaller lots - one in West Virginia which I've forgotten, and this:

https://www.grafs.com/

They will sell in 2 lb. lots, which is still quite a bit, and you would still have to pay HazMat of course. Not an inexpensive option, but you would then be pretty much set for life.

You don't HAVE to use actual black powder, or even 4f. Substitute powders will still work - they just have to be packed tighter generally. And they will make less of a mess which is a good thing. Also, 3f can work well too. Either of these would require that you do thorough ground-testing to get your amounts and packing dialed in, but you should be doing this anyway.

On a similar note: I've had a large amount of trouble finding even SUBSTITUTE powder these days. I needed some "Green Dot" for a particular ignitor formula, and when I went to all the big stores (Cabela's, Sportsman's Warehouse, etc.) their shelves were almost completely empty of ANY type of powder. They told me they haven't been able to get GreenDot or RedDot for years. The Cabela's had only six bottles of powder in the entire store!

s6

Not sure where you live, Rocketcharlie but there usually are stores that cater to the blackpowder/smokepole crowd. The trick is to locate one. There is a shop about 35 miles from me that carries it. Perhaps there's one near you, too.

Another thought is attend a local blackpowder get-together/shoot because vendors usually have FFFF for sale.

Word to the wise...when you find some for sale, remember that you're buying if to prime your black powder firearm. Talking about "rockets" usually isn't helpful.

o1d_dude said:

Word to the wise...when you find some for sale, remember that you're buying if to prime your black powder firearm. Talking about "rockets" usually isn't helpful.

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I had heard this same thing but didn't follow the suggestion. I had stopped in a place where a friend suggested that had some in stock behind there counter. I don't know much about firearms so I opted to just tell the shop what I needed it for ( they asked) and I offered to show them my NAR card. They somewhat impolitely told me they wouldn't sell it to me. Apprently, since they didn't see a bunch of future sales coming from me on shooting supplies they can be choosey on who to sell it to.

I know that Hill's sporting goods in Raleigh NC carries it, but I still haven't been over there to check.

Trooper said:

I use FFF in a pistol. Granted, the lead ball forces pressure to build up versus a loosely packed ejection charge, but I think you'll be fine. You might just need to use a little more FFF than FFFF.

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4F is to prime the flashpan. You wouldn't use it in the firearm itself. Another reason it's hard to find.... everyone shoot caps now. Flintlock are much less popular.

Rrwjr said:

I had heard this same thing but didn't follow the suggestion. I had stopped in a place where a friend suggested that had some in stock behind there counter. I don't know much about firearms so I opted to just tell the shop what I needed it for ( they asked) and I offered to show them my NAR card. They somewhat impolitely told me they wouldn't sell it to me. Apprently, since they didn't see a bunch of future sales coming from me on shooting supplies they can be choosey on who to sell it to.

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Not choosey. It's simply illegal to purchase, own or use blackpowder without the proper paperwork/license/whatever for rocketry. You can't sell, own or store it otherwise, unless it's for use in firearms. It's why I laugh when people say "just carry a muzzleloader" That's useless. As soon as it goes into a rocket...the line is crossed.

DizWolf said:

Not choosey. It's simply illegal to purchase, own or use blackpowder without the proper paperwork/license/whatever for rocketry. You can't sell, own or store it otherwise, unless it's for use in firearms. It's why I laugh when people say "just carry a muzzleloader" That's useless. As soon as it goes into a rocket...the line is crossed.

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This is precisely why I am trying to figure out a good non-chemical method of deployment that doesn't need complicated things like servos...if I can do it with ordinary DC motors that will be excellent.

rocketcharlie said:

Would 3F work OK?

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The short answer: yes, 3F will work, with some extra precaution. 3F grains aren't as fine as 4F, and, consequently, take longer to burn up. I have a can of 3F, myself, that I've been using [really, trying to use up in order to replace it with a can of 4F]. You'll definitely want to use nomex protection for your shock cord and parachute. Because the grains are still burning while the chute, etc, are being pushed clear of the airframe, they could still burn holes in the chute without adequate protection beyond just a handful of dog barf.

CarVac said:

This is precisely why I am trying to figure out a good non-chemical method of deployment that doesn't need complicated things like servos...if I can do it with ordinary DC motors that will be excellent.

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From a weight/energy/cost standpoint it's going to be very hard to beat.

DizWolf said:

From a weight/energy/cost standpoint it's going to be very hard to beat.

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From a "sketchy and potentially gonna blow up in my face if the altimeter glitches or the leads get hooked up wrong" standpoint it wouldn't be so bad.

For those than launch in Orangeburg, SC. I have plenty to share for those who are of a legal age.

March, easiest way to use the 3F is to mix it with the 4F.
If anyone remembers the old Vulcan single use motors, all Scott used was 3F

https://www.addictedtoblackpowder.com/index.html

Jon Blackert

815-542-6287

[email protected]

NikeRam said:

https://www.addictedtoblackpowder.com/index.html

Jon Blackert

815-542-6287

[email protected]

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Not bad prices.

What's the difference between 4FA and 4FG?

Thanks to all who have tried to help me find some of this stuff. The addictedtoblackpowder site looks the most promising. It still baffles me that something that is basic to this hobby is so difficult to find or purchase.
Rocketcharlie

This isn't the lowest cost solution, but Aerotech sells BP charges on their valuerockets.com website under the EFC section. Just scroll the item to "ECK1", Ejection charge reload kit for the Electronic Forward Closure, includes 12 each 1.4 gram ejection charges & 1/2" dia. ejection plugs, for $6.99. Add it to your next order.

DizWolf said:

It's simply illegal to purchase, own or use blackpowder without the proper paperwork/license/whatever for rocketry. You can't sell, own or store it otherwise, unless it's for use in firearms. It's why I laugh when people say "just carry a muzzleloader" That's useless. As soon as it goes into a rocket...the line is crossed.

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Then machine tiny little ejection powder cups shaped exactly like scale versions of US Civil War mortars with DIY scale plywood mounts. Antique firearm "noise making" use of 4F. I doubt they'd even try to take that one to court.

Multiple examples, all too large:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Salut...wder-Signal-or-Noise-Maker-LOUD-/151259764292

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SIGNAL-CANNON-BLACK-POWDER-MIGHTY-AWESOME-NOISE-MAKER-ONLY-/141231231015

Large, perfectly legal "thunder mug," but way too large and certainly not suitable for 4F:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-powd...der-Mug-civil-war-muzzle-loader-/261431645332

DizWolf said:

Not choosey. It's simply illegal to purchase, own or use blackpowder without the proper paperwork/license/whatever for rocketry. You can't sell, own or store it otherwise, unless it's for use in firearms. It's why I laugh when people say "just carry a muzzleloader" That's useless. As soon as it goes into a rocket...the line is crossed.

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Then since it's illegal, what exactly do you use? What is the ejection powder that is provided with reloads? I always assumed that it was 4F. I remember when a certain vendor that came to launches 13 years ago and who no longer is in business, would sell 1lb cans of FFFFG.

hball55 said:

Then since it's illegal, what exactly do you use? What is the ejection powder that is provided with reloads? I always assumed that it was 4F. I remember when a certain vendor that came to launches 13 years ago and who no longer is in business, would sell 1lb cans of FFFFG.

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See discussion in this thread:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?20703-Ejection-Charges-Black-Powder-LEUP

Oh, the difficulties caused by the lack of a few words ("and rocketry") in a restriction (possession and use of small quantities of BP) that shouldn't exist in the first place...

NAR & Tripoli should act on this just as they did with the APCP "explosives" problem.

Laws in this country that require technical knowledge for clear wording are too often poorly written. Below is part of "18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions." Note that their list of "antique firearms" in paragraph (C) does not specifically include muskets (a musket is not a "rifle") or cannon (only very few of which are rifled and actually called rifles), and yet both are clearly antique firearms. Those who own them and use black powder in them rely only upon the second part of the paragraph which states what features an "antique firearm" must not have.

Also, note paragraph (B) which states that if the "antique firearm" is not an original, authentic antique, it must be a "replica"? To what degree or extent must it be a "replica"? There are plenty of cannons of modern manufacture that are "replicas" only to the extent they are, technically, cannons.

Far too many regulations and laws in the US that rely on technical knowledge for proper clarity are badly worded and should therefore be placed in the following category:

Void for Vagueness

Referring to a statute defining a crime which is so vague that a reasonable person of at least average intelligence could not determine what elements constitute the crime. Such a vague statute is unconstitutional on the basis that a defendant could not defend against a charge of a crime which he/she could not understand, and thus would be denied "due process" mandated by the 5th Amendment, applied to the states by the 14th Amendment.

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18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Here's how the Confederates got around the Union blockade during the War of Northern Aggression:

https://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/lecontesalt/leconte.html

Start by pissing on your nitre beds. :duck:

tmacklin said:

Start by pissing on your nitre beds. :duck:

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Then identify the saltpeter by taste. uke:

Chris Rockets at https://www.csrocketry.com/sto sells it but there is a hazmat fee. I have never purchased it there. First time purchase is the hardest. Best bet is to go to a launch and ask major vendors.

4kids49 said:

Chris Rockets at https://www.csrocketry.com/sto sells it but there is a hazmat fee. I have never purchased it there. First time purchase is the hardest. Best bet is to go to a launch and ask major vendors.

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Thing is, regardless of HOW you manage to buy it, it's illegal to use it in a rocket for recovery purposes and you risk a felony charge every time you use it as such. The oft-heard "Yeah, but they don't care and don't enforce it" or "Shhhhhh!" is a foolish reliance on the mood and arrest stat "health" of anyone who might enforce it and your luck on that particular day. This issue needs to be fixed with action from NAR and Tripoli, just as they fixed the APCP as "explosive" issue with the BATFE.

18 U.S. Code § 921 offers exemption from the "destructive device" definition for items related to public "safety" such as rescue-related pyrotechnic devices, but it's not specific enough to allow personal possession and use of BP for gas generation in rocket recovery without the silly requirement for a LEUP and an explosives magazine. However, it's that approach that I believe should be taken to add to the code and allow, for example, possession of a 1lb can of BP for rocket recovery gas generation without a LEUP and magazine.

Winston said:

Thing is, regardless of HOW you manage to buy it, it's illegal to use it in a rocket for recovery purposes and you risk a felony charge every time you use it as such. The oft-heard "Yeah, but they don't care and don't enforce it" or "Shhhhhh!" is a foolish reliance on the mood and arrest stat "health" of anyone who might enforce it and your luck on that particular day. This issue needs to be fixed with action from NAR and Tripoli, just as they fixed the APCP as "explosive" issue with the BATFE.

18 U.S. Code § 921 offers exemption from the "destructive device" definition for items related to public "safety" such as rescue-related pyrotechnic devices, but it's not specific enough to allow personal possession and use of BP for gas generation in rocket recovery without the silly requirement for a LEUP and an explosives magazine. However, it's that approach that I believe should be taken to add to the code and allow, for example, possession of a 1lb can of BP for rocket recovery gas generation without a LEUP and magazine.

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I am pretty sure that most people who have been in rocketry for very long are aware of this. It is in numerous threads.

4kids49 said:

I am pretty sure that most people who have been in rocketry for very long are aware of this. It is in numerous threads.

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I'm more than pretty sure. My question is then, "Why is this allowed to stand?" Potential felons who are not so only by luck should be demanding that NAR and Tripoli join forces to fix this instead of ignoring the issue. The allowance of a 1lb can of BP for use as a gas generator in a "safety device" (rocket recovery system) without the insane requirement for a magazine to store it and a LEUP is a no-brainer. Stop playing the odds because, eventually, someone's going to lose.

EDIT: with the NAR/Tripoli "APCP as explosive" lawsuit against the BATFE, there was a commercial constituency of APCP motor manufacturers behind it as well as a groundswell of HPR fliers who realized it would greatly harm the sport. Not so with the BP recovery issue where the amount of BP sold for that purpose is minuscule and, therefore, is of no interest to BP manufacturers. Fixing this one will rely entirely upon NAR and Triploi members demanding it.