We now HAVE the technology, VERTICAL automated rocket guidance - Eagle Tree Guardian

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georgegassaway

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For those who have not heard, there is finally an off-the-shelf R/C plane "Stabilizer" that can make a rocket fly vertically.

There is more than one, but the one I got to try, and have also seen fly, is the Eagle Tree Guardian (It seems to be the best one). It is an autopilot, or gyro, that has two modes. The 2D mode is the one that is great for rockets, because it can keep the rocket pointing STRAIGHT UP. More tech info here:

https://www.eagletreesystems.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=50

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When I got to try one, it was in an electric R/C plane. It is set up by plugging servos into the Guardian. Then plugging the Guardian into the proper servo outputs from the R/C receiver. Yes, you do need to have an R/C system in the loop, but for a rocket, mainly for the pre-flight set-up. For the actual rocket flight, the transmitter is on but nothing needs to be done but sit back and watch the Guardian do its thing.

Anyway, for the plane, the Guardian was mounted horizontally , lengthwise along the line of flight. It was plugged into the elevator (pitch) and aileron (roll) servo channels. To initialize it, the plane is put onto the ground, level in pitch and level in roll. Turn on the power, and the Guardian starts to initlialize, "learning" what wings level and pitch level is (It is learning what it then assumes to be a "virtual horizon". This is why it needs to be level, not angled). After 15 seconds or so, it is ready. Although, if there are any obvious small trim errors, the transmitter trim levers can be used to adjust those before takeoff (that is important for rocket flight).

When I used it with a plane, the transmitter can still be used to fly the plane, of course. The magic happens when in flight you let the sticks go to neutral, because when in 2D mode, the Guardian will level the wings and level the pitch. Put the plane into a dive and let go, it pulls out. Put the plane into a 90 degree roll, let go it levels the wings. Have it inverted and let go, it levels out. Just, incredible. Fly the plane for 15 minutes, get it into trouble and let go, and it levels the plane exactly like it did 15 minutes before, there is NO DRIFT! Also, on windy days, it holds the plane pretty steady, not nearly as much bouncing around from gusts (this is the second biggest reason for using it, to handle winds a lot better).

And so this is how and why it can make a rocket fly straight up. Use it exactly the same way, with the Guardian mounted LEVEL as it is for a plane in 2D, NOT mounted end-on at 90 degrees. The Guardian is about 2" long, so to mount it level into a rocket, the smallest practical diameter is an Estes BT-70, about 2.2" diameter.

The same exact servo outputs are used. Pitch, yeah, of course. But also, to use the aileron servo output for "roll". It might sound confusing, but when the Guardian is used that way, mounted horizontally in a rocket pointed vertically, it ends up that the "roll" axis of the Guardian is what is needed to control the Yaw axis of a vertical rocket. And in the same vein, the "yaw" axis of the Guardian, would be used to control roll in a rocket.

Now, the Guardian has another mode for controlling flight, 3D mode. In that mode, it does not know anything about what is horizontal. It simply tries to keep the plane pointing the same direction it was aimed at, when you went to neutral on the sticks. However, that can drift over time. I saw an R&D project attempting to use the 3D mode, of another brand of autopilot, and clearly it did not work as advertised, the R/C Rocket Boosted Glider pitched down about 30 degrees on a B powered flight (a heck of a lot of "drift"), just as bad, if not worse, than old R/C gyros. For whatever reasons, they chose to do it in 3D mode (probably to be able to orient the autopilot board parallel to the fuselage). So, I really do not suggest using 3D mode for rocket boosts, unless you absolutely know what you are doing and do some VERY careful testing.

The 2D mode, again, is incredible. Another R&D project, by Alyssa Stenberg, used the Guardian in 2D mode, and it worked great for her. She had rockets with control surfaces, and even one with a gimbaled engine, which flew finless a couple of times.

At NARAM last summer, she did a demo flight of a model with control fins on the nose, that was angled 30 degrees off vertical (she initialized it vertically, then once running properly and trimmed she angled the rail 30 degrees. If she had tilted it 30 degrees, then initialized it, the Guardian's "virtual horizon" reference would have been tilted 30 degrees in relation to the real world horizon, and it would have wandered thru the sky trying to fly anywhere from 30 to 60 degrees off-vertical, depending on its roll orientation from where it was when initialized). It was flown 2-staged. After liftoff, it pitched down to about 45 degrees. After staging it had enough velocity to start to pitch up, and by burnout (I think it was an E9) it was pointed absolutely vertical, proving it worked. Three photos are attached, showing that flight.

Anyway, I wanted to let people know, that if you have wanted to add vertical guidance to a rocket, but felt the technology was way too complex, not reliable enough, and/or way too expensive, that is no longer a problem. The Guardian is $75. Almost any cheap R/C system which uses common plug-in type servos, will work with it (as opposed to planes with servos built into the receiver and very small planes with funky systems).

The transmitter..... it is turned on, and before liftoff maybe adjust the trims if a surface seems to be a bit off. But after that, hold it but do not do anything, let the Guardian do it all. Although if a person did move the elevator (or aileron) stick, the rocket would veer off (much as it does to let people fly planes), but if you let the stick go back to neutral, then the Guardian would steer it back towards vertical.

Now, I would not suggest just adding this to say any random L powered rocket. Anyone who did that, ought to work out a small BT-70 prototype first, to get accustomed to using it and to work out the mechanics of for example making moveable nose fins. Once that works out, then it would be time to scale it up, and make use of many lessons learned from the prototype. But also don't go nuts, for an HPR rocket it ought to fly slower, rather than faster. Actually the most impressive on a guided rocket is a long burn anyway. Due to potential extreme aerodynamic loads on the control surfaces, the bigger and faster the rocket, the more sturdy and powerful the servos should be. If the rocket is going to fly really fast, then the control fins either should be smaller, or set up to move fewer degrees, than for a rocket that would be flying slower.

Now, I am not entirely sure how well the overall R/C and Guardian work if the receiver loses signal, such as for example a HPR rocket flying so high that it loses signal from the transmitter. I think that if a person was using a receiver with "fail safe" technology, set up to stay at neutral if it loses signal, that the Guardian would keep steering the rocket vertically. The simple ground-test for that would be to see what happens, once the system is up and running, by turning off the transmitter to simulate loss of signal, causing the fail-safe to kick in.

The ultimate solution to that loss of signal problem would be to program a microcontroller (or use/build an old-school servo controller) to produce the same servo 1.50 millisecond control pulses (servo neutral) as an R/C receiver produces. And use that onboard, plugged directly into the Guardian rather than a receiver. If done that way, it would also be desirable to be able to adjust the pulses a little bit, like 1.2 to 1.8 milliseconds, to allow a decent amount of trim adjustment.

For those who worry, an onboard guidance system like this is totally legal to do. It is to make the rocket fly vertically, NOT make it go towards a target.

- George Gassaway

(flier of automated guided model rockets since 1988, with Sunguidance)

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That is so awesome. Hope to see one in actione someday.
 
How do you think it would do with a gimbaled motor George?

Well, it works. Because that is what Alyssa also did. She had a sorta heavy rocket with a G12 reload, slow flight. Such a gimbaled rocket needs to be dialed in, regardless of guidance system. But in any case, if a person wants to to try gimbaled engine flight, the Guardian is very well suited to it.

Gerard is correct in the sense that a short-burn flight can't be controlled after burnout, but then the "fun" of a gimbaled model is to climb slow on a long burn engine. And actually I realized when I did a gimbaled project in 1989, that the faster a rocket got, the more the aerodynamic stability would fight the gimbal control, so the gimbal would lose control authority at some point, at some key velocity for each specific model depending on other factors (I think this happened on at least one flight which appeared to get "ballistic" in the middle of the burn). One thing I did to address that later was to add some wide skinny fins to the engine mount, so as the mount tilted, the fins moved as control surfaces (it also had a set of wide skinny fixed fins.

BTW - VonBraun had a simple solution with the V2, that was even more obvious with the Redstone. Not only vectored thrust, but also aerodynamic control surfaces too. During a trip to Huntsville long ago, I was surprised to realize that the moving thrust vanes, in the exhaust of the Redstone engine, also were each connected by chain and sprocket system that went to the "air rudders" at the tip of the fixed fins. So as the control vanes were steered, the rudders were steered directly the same way (Well, the Redstone on display did not actually have an engine inside of it, so it was possible to peek inside and see that. Wow I have to remember one day to take a picture of that system inside). I knew that the air rudders had moved, but thought they had their own separate drive system.

My 1989 gimbaled project mostly had issues with the sunguidance as a guidance system. A rocket taking off vertically wanted to pitch hard over towards the sun, and it over-controlled. The best flight was one on an overcast day, were it obviously worked, did a left-right wobble at liftoff and then dead arrow straight up..... until the engine blew up..

Anyway gimbaled engines can be done for hobby rockets. David Gianokos had the first truly reliable gimbaled system in the early 1990's, using a spinning piezo disc TRUE gyro, ingeniously designed, expert-built. John Pursley did it with a Vanguard model around 1999, using horizon sensors, and Mercury Redstone later (I think his Redstone flew too fast and lost control authority as it did not stay vertical during thrust) . And others have proven it too in recent years with modern stabilization technology, usually with F10 or G12 eight second burn engines. But all of those recent ones were homemade, often custom programmed. This is off the shelf, plug and play guidance, not including the actual design and construction of the rocket and control mechanics.

- George Gassaway
 
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So....we can really build the rockets with a 0 Stability CAL and they will fly straight?

Well.....that would be tricky. Best to stick with a positive stability margin. Two reasons. One, aerodynamic control surfaces need some velocity before they can produce useful control.

The other, our models generally have very low "moments of inertia", so if not stable to begin with they can pitch or yaw around too fast for a stability and control system to keep up with.

Really, the best reasons to use this are to make the rocket fly straight up. Not to try to fly with zero margin of stability. Even for a finless gimbaled engine model, it would be a better idea for the CG to be above the CP a bit. Definitely bad idea to try to make an unstable model fly, the system would be fighting that every millisecond and at some point it would likely reach an angle of attack to cause the CP to shift forward enough to make it flip around, then it would never recover from that.

Though if given enough time and money to make lots of test flights and replace some broken/damaged parts, it would be fun to play around with to see how marginal it can get but still stay under control.


BTW - is anyone having issues with the forum? I have tried to start a new thread with the thread starter but odd things have happened. I've tried a different browser, and even a totally different type of computer, and have still much the same. Often I get the original Watering Hole page to reload, but with the date sequence reversed to 2009 as the restart after the big forum crash of 2008.

- George Gassaway
 
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Good to see Bill Parry's stuff getting some visibility here. I've been flying Eagle Tree loggers and such in airplanes for years, and used their standalone altitude sensors as rocket altimeter quite successfully as well. I got well and truly drawn back into rockets about the time first person view flying started to become popular (the beginnings for the current round of flight stabilizers, I think) so haven't tried anything like that as I haven't flown a plane at all in a couple of years.

I'd wondered whose device was used when I read about Alyssa's R&D project.

Thanks, George!
 
@ George Gassaway;

So sticking with the tried-and-true 1.0 CAL is best? I'm thinking that some true to scale military missiles might be possible now with this 2D/3D guidance system.
 
Interesting. I'd like to see one in action on a rocket...


Later!

--Coop
 
George,

Thank you for the inspiring postings. I clearly remember your "sun-guidance" efforts. If you have the opportunity, I highly recommend that your cross paths with Ken Overton, who has been doing incredible work perfecting a veritical guidance system for his two stage high altitude shot. His efforts and technology as well are "jaw-dropping".

Kent/GLR
 
Now some one needs to invent a guidance system for the down part of the flight. :wink:
 
I had meant to post info about this before.

Both of the other threads are in the electronics section, which I figure only a small percentage of people check out. This might be called "Watering hole", but I think of it more as a General section. Seems like a few who have commented here never saw the other two threads.

Now some one needs to invent a guidance system for the down part of the flight. :wink:

Hey, that's been around since around 1968 or so in this hobby, and I've been doing that myself since 1980:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-0Vj8NqYGw

I'm the third flight in the video, from about 2:10 to 2:55, wish my other two landings were like that.

Hundreds of landings back to the launch area. And about 6 or so that....uh.... didn't make it back (dead battery, let get too far away & lost sight, lost signal, etc. And not including the crashed ones.... got those back).

Of course for more conventional rockets, it's more of problem. Steerable chutes has been experimented with, a few have gotten it to work reliably, the vast majority, not so much.

And now the tech is there to have a model glide back using GPS. Someone on the forum here was working on that for an HPR Glider a couple of years ago or so. And I think some team doing a larger rocket project (Cansats?) did it to recover their payload via sterrable chute from tens of thousands of feet up, or something like that (A bit easier to do when "only" trying to steer a payload section back, than to bring back the whole rocket).

There are off-the-shelf R/C Multicopters which use similar stabilizer technology such as the Eagle Tree Guardian does, to keep it level, but also have GPS capability built in. When it initializes, it records the GPS data of where it starts from, then the pilot can fly it around as usual. If the copter loses signal, the autopilot uses the GPS data to fly itself back to where it took off, and lands itself automatically. Now, the stabilizer systems in some of those blow away the Guardian, but cost a lot more (Around $200, something like that, with the actual GPS receiver not included). But if a person could work out the bugs to reliably deploy a steerable parachute, then such an off the shelf stabilization system with GPS added could fly it back.

Well, that exact one could not, as it is designed to steer and control the model by controlling the throttles of the electric motors. But the same tech also exists to control servos for R/C planes (used by many for FPV planes). I'm not familiar enough.... possibly some of the same stabilization GPS units for copters also work for planes by changing modes (via DIP switches or hooked up to a computer ).


BTW - I got to fly one of those advanced multi-copters. It had a GoPro on it, and the owner wanted to get video of him flying a fast plane past it, so all of sudden without advance planning, I was pressed into service to fly that copter. Well, flying an R/C plane and flying a R/C copter are night and day, and in a flight simulator I've crashed so many R/C helicopters. But this was so simple, as the stabilizer would make the copter move straight up and down based on throttle, and it would not tilt at all unless commanded to. Most important of all, if tilted, then if I let go of the stick, it would return to vertical. Now there was a bit of wind, so it did start to drift downwind when vertical, so I had to tilt it a little bit to make it fly a little bit into the wind to match the windspeed. For a copter, if I kept holding 5 degrees of down elevator stick the copter would keep pitching more and more and more and dive into the ground. But with this, it tilted the copter in proportion to the stick tilt, and no more (so for example if I tilted the stick 5 degrees, the copter titled 5 degrees and held to the stick angle. Though I'm not claiming a true 1:1 stick to tilt ratio, just to get the idea across). Roll (vertical axis), it was rock-steady, no rotation at all, unless I moved the rudder stick, then it rolled to where i wanted to aim the camera left-right and when I went to neutral, it stopped the roll and held that. I knew it would be a lot easier than flying a regular R/C copter, but I was really concerned that I'd not tried that kind on a simulator before, but it was pretty easy. Well, at least easy for an R/C copter. The copter did not have its GPS system set up yet, so it was not capable at the time of doing its own autoland. But I didn't get to land it, the owner landed his fast plane then took over to land it. I wish I'd been able to fly that again.

It got a great video of the fast plane going by. The two almost collided, the plane went under it by less than 5 feet, maybe 2 feet, way closer than intended (that plane does something like 80-100 mph).


A short note on gimbaled flight that I forgot to add before. Again, while it is true that a gimbaled engine can't control the model after burnout, by then it should not matter. If it works properly , the guidance has kept it vertical during the burn. After burnout, it's not going to suddenly go from a vertical coast to an extreme weathercock path, it's going to coast with the same ballistic path it was on at burnout. But as referred to before, if it was a fast moving gimbaled model the aerodynamic stability from the fixed fins would start to reduce the control effectiveness of the gimbaled thrust. Even more true if it used a regressive-thrust engine that has a lot of thrust early then less and less thrust as it continue (to avoid extreme over-control during that high thrust phase, the degree of travel would have to be set lower, then when it NEEDED more control during the lower thrust part of the burn, and faster velocity, the extra degrees of travel it needed would not be there. It would therefore require an onboard flight computer to work out how many degrees to move the gimbaled engine depending on airspeed and the programmed profile of the engine time-thrust curve, no longer off-the-shelf but doable for skilled-enough hobbyist with the needed skills to program a microcontroller and work out the electronics). To me, the big reason to do a gimbaled engine is to fly slow on a long burn engine. For anything that goes faster, aerodynamic control would be better. And aerodynamic control is certainly easier to do do, and get to work properly, than a gimbaled model.

- George Gassaway
 
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Very cool, especially the gimballed motor version. Much smaller control surfaces and appropriate 3-axis stabilizer sensitivity adjustments might make the non-gimballed version useful for airframe roll control during airborne video. The Eagle Tree stabilizer is around $75, this one is only $18:

https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking...lizer_V2_V2_1_firmware_V_tail_Delta_AUX_.html

I've had some hit and miss experiences with the Orange brand. A rash of plane crashes with one of their receivers, we don't use any of their Rxs except for one micro Rx that ironically has proven to have good range for its size. Anyway, do not assume that cheap one is as good and reliable as the Guardian. Maybe it is, just keep in mind it's not a known proven quantity regarding vertical rocket boost.

Now for roll control only, yes, that OrangeRx stabilizer would be well worth trying at that price. Because the worst that would happen is that it does not work and lets (or makes) the rocket spin rapidly, along a ballistic path. Maybe it would work super for roll. Or maybe it would drift in roll more than a better stabilizer, dunno.

Now, actually I recently got access to one of their combo stabilizer/receivers.

https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking...er_w_dsm2_compatible_6ch_2_4ghz_receiver.html

I'm going to try it out in a not-important, easy to replace or hard to badly damage plane. But it'll be awhile before I get to that.

- George Gassaway
 
An update. I looked at this video comparing the OrangeRx version 2 (stabilizer only) and version 3 (with receiver).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVGnm2r6FtU

it does NOT have the self-leveling 2D mode!!! So, it can't make a rocket fly vertically. Best it can do is to try to correct for roll, or attempt to keep a rocket from wandering too fast in pitch-yaw.

If anyone wants to do vertical rocket guidance, this is not suitable at all.

- George Gssaway
 
Now, actually I recently got access to one of their combo stabilizer/receivers.

https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking...er_w_dsm2_compatible_6ch_2_4ghz_receiver.html
I've been testing one of these in a rocket glider and it appears to work, though it's hard to set up (I had a couple of flights with the roll stabilization reversed, which lead to a runaway roll on boost until I was able to shut the stabilization off.)

Note that these have gyros only, not accelerometers as well, so they can't steer "up" or self-level like the Guardian can. [George just beat me to this.]
 
it does NOT have the self-leveling 2D mode!!! So, it can't make a rocket fly vertically. Best it can do is to try to correct for roll, or attempt to keep a rocket from wandering too fast in pitch-yaw.
- George Gssaway
I've got two (V1 firmware) that I bought back when they first came out, one installed on a trainer RC aircraft and it works great once the sensitivity is set right for the particular plane dynamics. The second I bought specifically for rocket roll control and even built a small "wind tunnel" for ground testing:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...5oHYBQ&usg=AFQjCNE42kYW0RZKOwjGbEyBle7ynGty6A

but that's just one of my many projects stalled in progress by some other priority or interest.
 
On the need to have an RC receiver attached to one of these, the PWM outputs of a small Arduino microcontroller could be used to provide the required neutral signals with a pot or program adjustable servo zero trim. You can buy tiny versions with far more than enough capability to do this on eBay for about $5.00 shipped. That's what I'd planned to do with the above project.
 
That is really neat, And a good potential point booster for people trying to get mission points in scale competitions.
 
On the need to have an RC receiver attached to one of these, the PWM outputs of a small Arduino microcontroller could be used to provide the required neutral signals with a pot or program adjustable servo zero trim. You can buy tiny versions with far more than enough capability to do this on eBay for about $5.00 shipped. That's what I'd planned to do with the above project.

Yes, that would be good. As I said in another message, that would address the issue for high-flying models that could lose reception..... if a good receiver's "fail safe" did not take over properly.

Or for the high-tech types who just don't want to touch an R/C transmitter. :)

- George Gassaway
 
Gimbals is not the solution as the main part of the flight is without power, you need to use fins control

I was asking with the idea of a long burning, short delay application. I am somewhat familiar with the hobby and the whole stability thing.
 
GPS-driven steerable parachute would be the answer, a few strong servos off a MCU could handle it. Sounds like a good college research project...

Now some one needs to invent a guidance system for the down part of the flight. :wink:
 
I've had some hit and miss experiences with the Orange brand. A rash of plane crashes with one of their receivers, we don't use any of their Rxs except for one micro Rx that ironically has proven to have good range for its size.
Yeah, I've read that on RC forums, too. The only Orange brand have is two V1 stabilizers.
 
Or for the high-tech types who just don't want to touch an R/C transmitter. :)
Well, actually, since I have many more receivers than planes and three TXs, for the early ground tests I was planning to use an attached RX instead of the microcontroller method to see if the Orange brand stabilizer was effective at good roll control before proceeding further. The goal of roll control was related to the desire for stable on-board videos. A example of the advantages using a sophisticated, custom designed roll control system (launch is at around 1:17):

[video=youtube;-EogmHQXUrk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EogmHQXUrk&feature=youtu.be&t=1m17s[/video]
 
GPS-driven steerable parachute would be the answer, a few strong servos off a MCU could handle it. Sounds like a good college research project...
That's what I suggested here in another thread:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-the-Launch-Pad-Everytime&p=651711#post651711

The apparent parachute size looks like it would be limited to mid-power and, as I said, it might be difficult to deploy without tangles. Perhaps if one followed the methods used to pack human rated chutes like that, deployment could be successful.
 
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