Estes vs. Centuri... how did Centuri lose?

Centuri's "catalogs" (newspapers) were better, their kits were better, they had composite technology from Enerjet, they advertised in Boys Life (as far as I remember)... yet Estes won? How? :confused2:

Beta was better than VHS. CPM was better than DOS.

The unholy alliance of MarCom "geniuses" and bean counters usually win.

majordude said:

Centuri's "catalogs" (newspapers) were better, their kits were better, they had composite technology from Enerjet, they advertised in Boys Life (as far as I remember)... yet Estes won? How? :confused2:

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I always thought that Centuri was better, especially since they were just up the road from where I lived.

My 'history' was flawed..Estes bought out Centuri..This explains it all..

For a more informative answer you'd do better to ask on YORF... lots of "old timers" there that could answer better than I could.

BUT... From what I understand-- it's not so much that Estes "won"... Centuri did have very neat products, some really ahead of their time (composite motors, etc.) and it wasn't like Centuri went broke and Estes gobbled up what was left... it was more like a business decision, pure and simple... Lee Piester (the owner/founder of Centuri) was ready to sell, and Estes was ready to buy (and there were tax incentives for Estes, so technically even though Estes bought Centuri, they actually did it the other way around, so that Centuri (being a company in Arizona with more favorable tax laws) was the 'parent company' even though it was being bought out by Estes... for a while, the two product lines overlapped, with the Centuri stuff gradually being phased out in favor of the Estes stuff... though some things, like the BT-56 among others remained as part of the Estes lineup...

Later Estes bought North Coast Rocketry, and absorbed their product line and "Dark Star" motors into their own lineup, but then things sorta went south and the NCR by Estes stuff just slowly faded away... so it's not unheard of...

It'll be interesting to see how long this current Estes flirtation with big MPR/small HPR rockets and motors will last...

All as I understand it of course...

Later! OL JR

Vern Estes sold his company to the Damon Corporation in 1969.

Lee Piester sold Centuri to Damon in 1970.

This was at the height of the 'Space Race'.

Model rocketry went into decline after that.

Centuri kits used more plastic (Detailing), and other more expensive parts.

By the early 1980s Damon decided since it 'owned' the model rocketry market why have two companies.

So Damon kept the better known Estes product line alive and closed Centuri to save money.

Damon DID keep the Centuri name in use as Arizona had more favorable tax laws for business than Colorado.

Around 1990 Damon sold off Estes/Centuri.

majordude said:

Centuri's "catalogs" (newspapers) were better, their kits were better, they had composite technology from Enerjet, they advertised in Boys Life (as far as I remember)... yet Estes won? How? :confused2:

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I got started in model rocketry 1966. Estes had ads in boys life too. They had the Alpha starter kit back then, 2 bucks. 1966 catalog had the Mars Snooper on the cover. They were ahead in design. don't forget the Cineroc and Camroc. I remember most of Centuri's rockets we're basic fins and body. Estes had The 4 engine Saturn 1b (1967). Centuri did break the Small motor barrier. Even had a F black powder motor before the Enerjet. Estes was founded to cater to the 10 to 14 year olds. Because of the space race in the 60's. Staying with the safer low power black powder motors. So Estes got me into the hobby as a kid not Centuri. Plus Estes mail order back then was the best. Always got my order in 8 days. Mailing my order form from Indiana.

When I started flying (1977), Estes had better distribution than Centuri. I could find Estes at a couple of department stores close to home, but there was only one shop in downtown Huntsville, Ala. that carried Centuri. Even the Alabama Space and Rocket Center gift shop at that time had several Estes kits, but no Centuri kits, IIRC. Another thing to take into account is that Centuri only made 18mm motors from late 1970 to 1974, and their own mini motors (13mm x 2.5") in 1973 and 1974. For the remainder of their shared history (1962-late 1970 and 1975-1983) the standard and mini Centuri motors were made in Penrose, Colo.

Initiator001 said:

Vern Estes sold his company to the Damon Corporation in 1969.

Lee Piester sold Centuri to Damon in 1970.

This was at the height of the 'Space Race'.

Model rocketry went into decline after that.

Centuri kits used more plastic (Detailing), and other more expensive parts.

By the early 1980s Damon decided since it 'owned' the model rocketry market why have two companies.

So Damon kept the better known Estes product line alive and closed Centuri to save money.

Damon DID keep the Centuri name in use as Arizona had more favorable tax laws for business than Colorado.

Around 1990 Damon sold off Estes/Centuri.

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Insightful as always Bob, thanks. At what point in that timeline did you join up with Piester and co. ? I'd always understood that the Estes/Centuri relationship was the model of a friendly rivalry.

There was no better BP igniter than the Centuri Sure-Shot's, with the possible exception of Quest Q2G2's.

Greg

Anybody have photos of Centuri Sure-shots?

Chuck, I believe this is a shot I got off of eBay, but I'm not quite sure (pun intended).

View attachment 137273

I don't have a pic of an actual one, just one of the packages.

The nice things is these came with a rod of what I believe was Thermalite over a small diameter malleable rod. That malleability gave it the ability to bend and hold form when you put a 90 degree turn in it. The pyrogen composition was flexible enough where it could follow the bend. It would form some cracks, but would still be good enough to perform.

From what I have been able to track down, the igniter composition was made by Canadian company.

Greg

Sure-Shots were originally developed as "Ignite-Rite" by Irv Wait of Rocket Development Corp. He also developed the Enerjet composite propellant motors. Centuri bought him out and moved him to AZ when they developed continuing problems with their black powder Mini-Max motors. I was a member of the NAR's Standards and Testing Committee I helped to fire the late model Mini-Max and the Centuri labeled Enerjets.
Initiator001 has the correct timeline for Estes and Centuri. Damon sort of ran all of it into the ground then, he who must not be named, tried to turn it into a toy company.

Once again, for the record, Estes did not BUY North Coast Rocketry. They entered into a licensing agreement: hence NCR By Estes. I was working for NCR in Salt Lake City and was not part of the deal so I returned to Fort Worth, although my heart said Ohio. NCR Owners Matt Steele and Dan Kafun worked for Estes. When it came time where unit sales of NCR By Estes reached levels that Tunick would have to pay NCR through the licensing agreement, he pulled the plug. Saved him money. Matt and Dan left Estes. Anyway, there is a reason why the Estes PSII Launch Base looks like the NCR tripod launcher - it is. Too bad they did not bring back the DarkStar composite motors. So very nice, although now we are spoiled by all the different propellant choices from the several motor manufacturers.

For more on early Estes, Centuri, Enerjet, and RDC go to: www.ninfinger.org and wander through the catalogs.

Chas

Pantherjon said:

My 'history' was flawed..Estes bought out Centuri..This explains it all..

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Hmm... I think I'll take Bob Sanford and Chas Russell's recollections over Wikipedia on this one.

Ah! Thanks guys! I didn't realize Damon owned both companies from almost day one. I always thought Estes bought Centuri in the early 80s.

If you are real Centuri fan, cry when you look at the differences in the numbers of kits introduced by both Centuri and Estes between 1975 and 1983. In fact most Centuri kits introduced during or after 1980 use mostly Estes tubing instead of Centuri tubes. A few Centuri items crossed over to the Estes line, but Centuri generally exists as memories of older rocketeers. Carl McLawhorn says the same things about Centuri, but he states a bit more eloquently then I just did.

samb said:

Insightful as always Bob, thanks. At what point in that timeline did you join up with Piester and co. ? I'd always understood that the Estes/Centuri relationship was the model of a friendly rivalry.

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I joined up with Lee & Betty Piester in October 1987 during the attempt to get Enertek going and I was laid-off in May 1988.

I get a Christmas card from the Piesters every year and we occassionally stay in touch.

I have spoken to Lee in the past about my documenting the history of Centuri and he is interested. His warehouse is full of Centuri related material that would take days/weeks to review.

majordude said:

Centuri's "catalogs" (newspapers) were better, their kits were better, they had composite technology from Enerjet, they advertised in Boys Life (as far as I remember)... yet Estes won? How? :confused2:

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Which one was "better" was completely subjective. Certainly, Centuri had a more cohesive graphics presentation than Estes in the early days, but not by a significant amount. Centuri did have a style, as exemplified by roll patterns and fin planforms, that may have been more aesthetically pleasing to some than Estes' round-nose styles. But a look at the 1967 and 68 catalogs of each shows not too much difference in product line; Estes had a nice scale line and a futuristic line that Centuri didn't have until later. Estes offered more scientific merchandise (slide rules, scales, drafting equipment, AltiScope), and rocket info (free in the catalog, and available for purchase as tech reports). Camroc was available, and later, Cineroc.
Centuri had Mini-Max (and later, Enerjet), but the market was 12-16 year-olds, who had limited finances, and limited field choices (not as limited as now, but it was still difficult for kids in populous places to find places to fly bigger rockets to well over 1200').

*Both* Estes and Centuri advertised in Boys Life (and in Popular Mechanics, Popular Science, etc).

Estes won because they had the technology (they made Centuri's engines for most of its run) and they had the history. I.e, they were Coke vs Centuri's Pepsi. A significant portion of the country likes Pepsi better, but Coke still comes out in front over all.

Damon sunk its money into both Estes (in 1969) and Centuri (in 1970) (hmm. imagine General Motors buying both Coke and Pepsi in the 1940's!). By 1973, the fervor over the moon landings had ended, capital was tight, and anything you saw between the two companies after that were influenced probably by the fact that Estes had land and infrastructure, while Centuri was (if I've read the histories correctly) mostly marketing and leased warehousing, so when Damon decided to consolidate the two, it was probably a no-brainer that they slowly folded Centuri's operations into Penrose over the next ten years.

Most if not all Estes employees have email addresses that are based on "centuri".

If you have ever sent an e-mail to customer service you may have noticed that.

That is because Centuri owned Estes on paper and they needed to use the name for some reason. They also used the name on catalogs and copyrights.

Initiator001 said:

.... I have spoken to Lee in the past about my documenting the history of Centuri and he is interested. His warehouse is full of Centuri related material that would take days/weeks to review.

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Oh my ! Where does the line for volunteers start ? Let loose in the Piester/Centuri warehouse for a week... I can dream, anyway !

RoyAtl said:

Certainly, Centuri had a more cohesive graphics presentation than Estes in the early days, but not by a significant amount. Centuri did have a style, as exemplified by roll patterns and fin planforms, that may have been more aesthetically pleasing to some than Estes' round-nose styles.

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I agree Roy!
This 1973 catalog was by far the best at the time, I think by a significant amount:
https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73cencat.html

I was starting work as a graphic artist at a local print shop.
I brought that catalog in for the head artist to see. He thought it was a great work!
How about all those air brushed smoke trails and fin tip fades!

I didn't care for the newspaper catalogs that came out later.

In retrospect it was a coincidence of bad timing.

Estes hit the market big in 1967-68 and Centuri didn't really seem to catch up until 1969-70, which just happened to be the time when public interest took a huge dive.

I don't think anybody really anticipated how much public interest in space would drop off after Apollo 11.

Early 70's I got a very complete rocket starter kit,model,engines,all the stuff. The launch system was overly complected. Ignition was done by a squeeze bulb and air line,moving a tang for electrical contact,on the pad. Was That Centuri ?

georgeb said:

Early 70's I got a very complete rocket starter kit,model,engines,all the stuff. The launch system was overly complected. Ignition was done by a squeeze bulb and air line,moving a tang for electrical contact,on the pad. Was That Centuri ?

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Yes. That was the Servo Launcher. Used two 'D' photoflash batteries.

hcmbanjo said:

I agree Roy!
This 1973 catalog was by far the best at the time, I think by a significant amount:
https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73cencat.html...snip

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Gotta agree, Chris. Great full color catalog.

The one I'll always remember was the '69 edition. That's what started it all for me and I'm sure that's why I have a soft spot for those classic Centuri designs. It's probably what led me to Semroc as well—thank goodness.

Initiator001 said:

Yes. That was the Servo Launcher. Used two 'D' photoflash batteries.

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Thank you Initiator, I will check out what I can find on it.

cwbullet said:

Anybody have photos of Centuri Sure-shots?

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Here you go Chuck. Just opened this pack so you could see these. I picked up a couple of unopened packs along with some very old Estes motors at a swap shop this Spring. They aren't much use if they just stay in the sealed package.

There are 12 pieces of Nichrome wire, 12 pieces of what appears to be similar to thermalite but without the wires on the outside, and 12 punch out pieces of paper with adhesive on one side.

Please note the price on the package. Twenty nine cents for 12 igniters seems reasonable.

One photo is of the instructions, one is of the components and one is of the paper tabs but not punched out yet. This is difficult to see. I had a hard time getting them laid out to take the photo. I can't imagine actually putting them together. Oh yeah, the pyrogen is really dried out and flaking so I wouldn't put much trust in the ones i have.

foamy said:

Gotta agree, Chris. Great full color catalog.

The one I'll always remember was the '69 edition. That's what started it all for me and I'm sure that's why I have a soft spot for those classic Centuri designs. It's probably what led me to Semroc as well—thank goodness.

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Tell you what I like in that catalog--- the PRICES!

hcmbanjo said:

I agree Roy!
This 1973 catalog was by far the best at the time, I think by a significant amount:
https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73cencat.html

I was starting work as a graphic artist at a local print shop.
I brought that catalog in for the head artist to see. He thought it was a great work!
How about all those air brushed smoke trails and fin tip fades!

I didn't care for the newspaper catalogs that came out later.

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Those kind of graphics influenced me as a kid. The 2010 Quest cover I did is an homage to Popular Science covers of the 1970's

JoeG said:

Here you go Chuck. Just opened this pack so you could see these. I picked up a couple of unopened packs along with some very old Estes motors at a swap shop this Spring. They aren't much use if they just stay in the sealed package.

There are 12 pieces of Nichrome wire, 12 pieces of what appears to be similar to thermalite but without the wires on the outside, and 12 punch out pieces of paper with adhesive on one side.

Please note the price on the package. Twenty nine cents for 12 igniters seems reasonable.

One photo is of the instructions, one is of the components and one is of the paper tabs but not punched out yet. This is difficult to see. I had a hard time getting them laid out to take the photo. I can't imagine actually putting them together. Oh yeah, the pyrogen is really dried out and flaking so I wouldn't put much trust in the ones i have.View attachment 137439View attachment 137440View attachment 137441

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These were by far the best igniters on the market, they're like the Q2G2 now... they never failed. You just wrapped the wire around the wick, shoved it in the nozzle and taped it in, and you were good to go. Their silly folding tabs never worked right, tape was better.

Initiator001 said:

Yes. That was the Servo Launcher. Used two 'D' photoflash batteries.

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Had one too, it was really weird. It had a funny tripod stand, but you could fold the whole thing into a package about 6" square by 12" long. It was ideal for those weekend trips to my Jr High school on my bike, it fit into a book bag quite nicely.