wadding

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I'm experimenting with making my own chute protecters for my larger rockets. I only have a few small rockets that use wadding so I just stick with Estes. Nomex and kevlar can get expensive when I require one in each of my rockets because I dont like to take the time to change them between launches so I am trying heavy cotton cloth sprayed with heat resistant (made for bbq's) spray paint. I'm using a propane torch to test them and so far the results have been positive. Regular cotton cloth burns through in a few seconds but the sprayed cloth might take up to 7 or 8 seconds to burn so I think thats ample time to get the chute out before it's damaged. Now I just need to make sure the cloth wont ignite so I dont set the desert on fire!:bangpan:

After testing my experimental protectors on a G motor back in Feb, I finaly got to test one using an H motor and it worked quite well. No signs of chute damage and the protector looks like new! I made 4 protectors (2-8x8 2-12x12) for $6. Not bad!
 
If you fly large diameters...good ole Walmart popcorn (akin to buttered stryofoam) absorbs the heat and gives it that irresistable just-baked flavour the locals can't resist (coyotes, rabbits, road runners, etc) and leaves your payload bay Movie Theatre fresh! Theoretically, it's bio-degradeable, but I've never gone back to look....

It's puffed starch... yeah it's biodegradable... :D Probably won't be around long enough to biodegrade though-- varmints will get it first...

Later! OL JR :)
 
All of the above, but unfortunately the best wadding I've used is Pink fiberglass insulation. It has very good thermal blocking properties. Unfortunately it is not biodegradable........at all.

And if I ever caught anyone using it on my property the club would be looking for a new flying field... probably 95% of landowners you might be flying from would say exactly the same thing... Fiberglass insulation DOES work well, but it's an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE choice for wadding-- along with other "non-biodegradable" fibers such as pillow ticking and such... the stuff, once ejected from the rocket, will fall into the grass and remain there essentially permanently. The stuff will not rot... it will eventually make its way down to the soil surface and mix with plant debris growing over it and then dying and wash down flat on the surface by rain and snow, but it never really breaks down... It can kill livestock or wildlife that eat it inadvertantly before it washes down onto the soil. Just a permanent mess...

Foam plugs often used by competitors for ejection pistons is nearly as bad... that stuff takes FOREVER to break down unless you burn the field off... the only way I'd allow foam plugs to be used on my property is if they were securely attached to the rocket with a string to prevent their loss at ejection...

Regular paper wadding (crepe or the flameproof toilet paper type) breaks down fairly quickly, and while it's unsightly on the field until precipitation and wind moves it down into the ground cover plants (or they grow over it) it will eventually break down within a matter of weeks or a couple months or so, depending on the precipitation and climate in your area. The flameproofing chemical used is borate, which contains boron, an essential plant micronutrient, so it's actually good for the soil (of course there's only a trace anyway). What's nice is, you can actually pick the stuff up and reuse it... I've often walked the fields a day or two after the club has flown and picked up a ziplock bag of the stuff... it works great when reused, though it's usually perforated with small holes from burning BP... adding a clean unperforated sheet or two on top is a good idea, or just using a little extra of the burned stuff...

Lettuce, cabbage, green grass, etc. (green and juicy so it won't burn) works very well. These of course are instantly biodegradable and very cheap if not completely free...

Reusable wadding or wadding alternatives are generally nice and work with varying levels of success and efficacy... baffles work well (usually) but sometimes require one sheet of wadding just as insurance that the parachute doesn't melt or get singed from hot gas... though of course baffles usually aren't permanent and will eventually burn, weaken, or need cleanout from trapped particles of ejected debris from the motor, particularly "pot scrubber" type ones. Flameproof Nomex cloth squares work very well, and can be reused many times... eventually they get pretty dirty and need laundering. They usually have a buttonhole in the corner to attach them over the shockcord or to it with a small ring or another piece of string tied through the buttonhole to the shock cord.

Probably the slickest "reusable" wadding idea comes from Micromeister here on the forum-- Teflon tape pom-poms... turns out regular old white plumber's teflon tape, available at any hardware store, is flameproof and can withstand high temperatures.... a roll of tape, pulled into individual strips about 6-8 inches long or so, arranged in a starburst pattern with their centers all overlapping one another, then tied in the middle to make a "cheerleader pom-pom" will make a flameproof wadding alternative that is reusable... simply extend the string which ties all the ribbons together out long enough to tie to the shock cord, so they return with the rocket. 2-3 of these in a rocket work very well by all reports.

Then of course there's pistons, usually made from balsa, foam, or tubing that is undersized enough to slide easily into and out of the rocket body tube, but close enough to the size of the body tube to prevent hot gases and particles from getting around it and toasting the parachute... these work well (so long as their fitted properly) and are reusable due to being attached to the shock cord with string, or even being inline with the shock cord by having it pass through the piston... (presuming that the lower part of the shock cord is made of a flameproof material itself like kevlar that doesn't need protection from the hot particles and gases of ejection... )

Later and good luck! OL JR :)
 
After testing my experimental protectors on a G motor back in Feb, I finaly got to test one using an H motor and it worked quite well. No signs of chute damage and the protector looks like new! I made 4 protectors (2-8x8 2-12x12) for $6. Not bad!

Interesting... thanks for the followup... I might have to try these myself...

Sorry for the repeat posts but sometimes I forget I already replied on a resurrected old post... :)

Later! OL JR :)
 
And if I ever caught anyone using it on my property the club would be looking for a new flying field... probably 95% of landowners you might be flying from would say exactly the same thing... Fiberglass insulation DOES work well, but it's an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE choice for wadding-- along with other "non-biodegradable" fibers such as pillow ticking and such... the stuff, once ejected from the rocket, will fall into the grass and remain there essentially permanently. The stuff will not rot... it will eventually make its way down to the soil surface and mix with plant debris growing over it and then dying and wash down flat on the surface by rain and snow, but it never really breaks down... It can kill livestock or wildlife that eat it inadvertantly before it washes down onto the soil. Just a permanent mess...

Didn't say I still use it.
 
Didn't say I still use it.

Well, I wasn't trying to condescend, just making the point for any newbs that might read that and say "wow! I can use fiberglass house insulation!" and create a mess for their club, landowner, or both...

Later! OL JR :)
 
I do something similar, But I wrap the dog barf. A sheet or two of Estes wadding from a flight pack with a ball of dog barf makes a nice piston and is easy to pack down in the airframe with a smaller diameter rocket.

As for storage of Dog Barf, Just keep it in the attic, or harvest it from the attic if you already have an attic full of it...which I do not...I have blown in fiberglass, so I rely on my buddy to harvest his.:eyeroll:


I converted to dog barf pretty recently but I am sold on it. I now use it exclusively although I will still wrap a sheet of Estes wadding (get a ton of it in the blast-off packs) around a plastic chute sometimes. I have a ton of large reclosable 1 and 2 gallon bags that I split the bale into.
 
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Then of course there's pistons, usually made from balsa, foam, or tubing that is undersized enough to slide easily into and out of the rocket body tube, but close enough to the size of the body tube to prevent hot gases and particles from getting around it and toasting the parachute... these work well (so long as their fitted properly) and are reusable due to being attached to the shock cord with string, or even being inline with the shock cord by having it pass through the piston... (presuming that the lower part of the shock cord is made of a flameproof material itself like kevlar that doesn't need protection from the hot particles and gases of ejection... )

Later and good luck! OL JR :)

I'm amazed it took 63 posts before someone brought up pistons. They work great, and I use them from every rocket, from 18mm on up. They take less volume than wadding, protect the chute better, easier to use, and there's no issue about biodegradability, etc. The only downside is that the shock cord has to be attached below the piston, and it's one more part to make. But I'd rather make one part, once, that always works, than re-make a quasi-piston out of dog barf or whatever every launch.
 
I do something similar, But I wrap the dog barf. A sheet or two of Estes wadding from a flight pack with a ball of dog barf makes a nice piston and is easy to pack down in the airframe with a smaller diameter rocket.

As for storage of Dog Barf, Just keep it in the attic, or harvest it from the attic if you already have an attic full of it...which I do not...I have blown in fiberglass, so I rely on my buddy to harvest his.:eyeroll:

Grabbing barf out of your attic is just reducing the insulation of your house... and when you consider energy bills for heating and cooling nowdays, it's wise to ADD insulation, not remove it, even a handful at a time...

Considering what light/gas bills run, that $4 a bale pack of barf starts looking pretty darn cheap!

Later! OL JR :)
 
I'm amazed it took 63 posts before someone brought up pistons. They work great, and I use them from every rocket, from 18mm on up. They take less volume than wadding, protect the chute better, easier to use, and there's no issue about biodegradability, etc. The only downside is that the shock cord has to be attached below the piston, and it's one more part to make. But I'd rather make one part, once, that always works, than re-make a quasi-piston out of dog barf or whatever every launch.


Pistons are an interesting topic... I'd like to hear more about your experiences and methods... I take it you connect your shock cord somewhere below the piston-- by what method?? Kevlar to the motor mount?? An "Estes Teabag" further down with kevlar?? Steel fishing leader to the motor mount?? Something else?? How much clearance between the piston wall and the body tube do you use?? How do you construct your pistons?? Are they single bulkhead or double?? What materials?? What problems have you experienced?? What kind of reliability?? Any jamming problems or failure to eject the chute from the rocket?? What kind of life expectancy do you get from them?? What has worked and what hasn't??

Sounds like you're a regular user, and you're right... it's probably THE simplest, most reusable way to "go waddingless"... (after all, baffles have a limited lifetime themselves, and everything else is either expendable (barf, lettuce, etc.) or as complicated or more than a piston (nomex or teflon wadding requiring tieing off to the shock cord, baffles, etc.) I for one would LOVE to hear your experiences!

Later! OL JR :)
 
Pistons are an interesting topic... I'd like to hear more about your experiences and methods... I take it you connect your shock cord somewhere below the piston-- by what method?? Kevlar to the motor mount?? An "Estes Teabag" further down with kevlar?? Steel fishing leader to the motor mount?? Something else?? How much clearance between the piston wall and the body tube do you use?? How do you construct your pistons?? Are they single bulkhead or double?? What materials?? What problems have you experienced?? What kind of reliability?? Any jamming problems or failure to eject the chute from the rocket?? What kind of life expectancy do you get from them?? What has worked and what hasn't??
Later! OL JR :)

For my Blue Ninja dual deploy testing workhorse, I cut off the shoulder from an extra nosecone to make a main chute piston. For other rockets I start with a coupler, and glue in a single bulkhead, and reduce the outer diameter of the coupler somewhat. For fiberglass couplers that means using a bench-mounted belt sander. For paper couplers that just means peeling off the outer layer. Often I epoxy in a little bit fiberglass on the inside of the coupler to reinforce the tube and bulkhead at the same time. My 18mm couplers use glue-potted balsa for the bulkhead. They only weigh about a gram and take about 2mm of airframe length. Shock cord or streamer or chute can be packed into the space inside the coupler.

People make a big deal about which end to put the bulkhead for stability, but I haven't ever had a piston get stuck and I've tried it with the bulkhead at the front, center, and back. I do make sure that it's small enough to slide smoothly (can be blown out like a blowgun), and I use a dry paper towel to wipe out the BP residue from the inside the airframe between uses. One nice thing about putting the bulkhead at the front of the piston is that the back part forms a volume that the charge can blow into that protects the inside of the airframe. With the exception of my Blue Ninja piston, I make the piston 1-2 diameters long.

Using a piston in a normal rocket pretty much requires using Kevlar for its heat resistance, attached low in the tube. I tried wire once, but it wasn't very flexible and it snapped on the first try, resulting in a core sample. For 18mm minimum diameter rockets, I just glue in the cord between the thrust ring and the airframe tube. In my more recent dual-deploy rockets, I have been using a separate, smaller-diameter chute holder (chute cannon) tube, with all of the shock cord running into the chute cannon tube from the open end. That way, there isn't any shock cord in the combustion chamber formed by the piston. For the configurations in which the shock cord has to extend out both ends of the piston, attaching the piston to the cord requires some thought. I have potted the cord directly onto the inside wall of the piston with epoxy, but it makes me a little nervous to potentially reduce the Kevlar resilience that way. I have also epoxied a separate Kevlar loop onto the piston instead, and ran the dry Kevlar through the loop, which it a little more complicated but seems better from a shock cord strength point of view.
 
A few handfuls a year are not going to make any impact. You can always throw a bale up there first...

Grabbing barf out of your attic is just reducing the insulation of your house... and when you consider energy bills for heating and cooling nowdays, it's wise to ADD insulation, not remove it, even a handful at a time...

Considering what light/gas bills run, that $4 a bale pack of barf starts looking pretty darn cheap!

Later! OL JR :)
 
Oh, come on....why make it when you can buy a lifetime supply cheaper then a few rolls of TP......

Dog Barf!

Go to home depot and get a bale of blown in cellulose insulation. It's already pre treated with fire retardant and it will break down fairly quickly. I've never been to a launch site where it wasn't allowed. It's also pre-made so you won't spend any time
I agree. On larger models,I layer,put a sheet of Estes wadding or more on the bottom,then the cellulose on top. The ejection charge can part the cellulose an scorch the chute.
 
I converted to dog barf pretty recently but I am sold on it. I now use it exclusively although I will still wrap a sheet of Estes wadding (get a ton of it in the blast-off packs) around a plastic chute sometimes. I have a ton of large reclosable 1 and 2 gallon bags that I split the bale into.

OK .... Since there are NO stupid questions ... I'm asking one! WHAT is "dog barf" wadding????
 
Cellulose house insulation. It is pulverized newspaper that has been sprayed with a fire suppressant. Dog barf isn't fireproof, but it is fire resistant. You can buy it at home improvement stores.
 
Cellulose house insulation. It is pulverized newspaper that has been sprayed with a fire suppressant. Dog barf isn't fireproof, but it is fire resistant. You can buy it at home improvement stores.

Thanks for the info! I know what this stuff is now.
 
Make sure you use cellulose insulation and not fiberglass. Cellulose breaks down quickly and practically disappears when it lands. I have never actually seen any lying on the ground that was ejected from a rocket. Fiberglass insulation is just nasty stuff and should never be put in a rocket.
 
Excellent! How would you pack it in smaller models ... C and D size for instance? Placed in a pouch of some sort?

Actually I do, either using a single sheet of Estes/Quest wadding to form the pouch (LPR models) or some homemade fireproofed tissue made with a borax and boric acid solution.
 
I prefer ejection baffles, no wadding needed ever...there are many designs out there, just clone one... I use flame resistant toilet paper for bt-20 or smaller. Charmin soaked in the boric acid/borax solution. (Estes wadding is Charmin...) Mr. Whipple approved!
 
I buy big rolls of paper streamer material from party supply stores. It's fireproof and the roll is compact. However, after reading the posts here, I might switch to popcorn. That sounds like a nice ecologically sound solution.
 
I prefer ejection baffles, no wadding needed ever...there are many designs out there, just clone one... I use flame resistant toilet paper for bt-20 or smaller. Charmin soaked in the boric acid/borax solution. (Estes wadding is Charmin...) Mr. Whipple approved!

When I toured the Estes facility during NARAM-60, surrounding the wadding making machine were cases of Scott toilet tissue.

I guess they switched brands. ;)
 
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