WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ANTI-DRAGRACE SENTIMENT???

patelldp said:

I am sure that I'll be emasculated for supporting these regs, but good. Drag races are an unnecessary display that greatly increases risk in an already risky hobby. We all agree to the inherent risk of a singular launch, I'm happy if we cap it at that.

Last I checked, our hobby emulates that of the professional realm. I don't see SpaceX clamoring to drag race because it's "so cool, yo, much roar!!!"

Take a step back, hit the capslock key, and at least consider that there is a VERY strong counter argument.

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No more clusters, no more staging, no more EX? Each of these increase the risk, & thus the standoff distance. Seems reasonable to me.

dhbarr said:

No more clusters, no more staging, no more EX? Each of these increase the risk, & thus the standoff distance. Seems reasonable to me.

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Okay, let's have a decent conversation about that. Seriously. I've seen some scary staging attempts as well as clusters. I almost got hit by DM's Hojo cluster. I'm seriously open to good discussion about how to prevent that from happening.

Edit: Obviously EX is not in this discussion. Safe distance DOES prevent issues with CATO's, EX or Commercial, Sugar or AP.

The only recent change to this I saw recently was removing the word "twice". Which actually makes drag races easier


so.... is this just a case of someone learning the rules a few years too late?

I think a major motivation for the drag race rules was LDRS29 back in 2010, where a J1999 drag race had multiple CATOs and dropped a lot of rocket parts onto the spectators. Fortunately no one was hurt AFAIK, but it was a bit of a wake-up call.

As noted these rules are several years old now.

Full disclosure: I love me some drag race. I'll play anywhere, any power. In fact, I've sponsored several as "wildman CT"
However, it I gotta stroll a little farther, no big deal. If it keeps things safe, all the better. I've always believed that there's a pad for every rocket, the only question being "are you willing to walk that far?"

Maybe I'm simple, but I don't see any problem.

patelldp said:

Okay, let's have a decent conversation about that. Seriously. I've seen some scary staging attempts as well as clusters. I almost got hit by DM's Hojo cluster. I'm seriously open to good discussion about how to prevent that from happening.

Edit: Obviously EX is not in this discussion. Safe distance DOES prevent issues with CATO's, EX or Commercial, Sugar or AP.

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I listed them in the order of perceived danger, as perceived by me. I think the current rules are pretty swell, but the addition of the distance, then accidental doubling, then removal has maybe sown a bit of confusion.

The obvious solution for the must-go-faster crowd is to challenge someone similarly inclined to a clustered, staged, experimental drag race.

cbrarick said:

Full disclosure: I love me some drag race. I'll play anywhere, any power. In fact, I've sponsored several as "wildman CT"
However, it I gotta stroll a little farther, no big deal. If it keeps things safe, all the better. I've always believed that there's a pad for every rocket, the only question being "are you willing to walk that far?"

Maybe I'm simple, but I don't see any problem.

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From an event organization standpoint, it kills major drag races using all the pads. You don't want to set the whole event at 2,000 feet, and you're not going to make people pack up camp for a drag race and move them all down the road.

This leaves open the possibility of having an all drag event, or setting up a ton of pads at a regular launch weekend. But the days of popping off a ton and a half of AP 200 feet away from a few hundred people are long gone, and I don't think that's a bad idea to try to discourage.

dhbarr said:

The obvious solution for the must-go-faster crowd is to challenge someone similarly inclined to a clustered, staged, experimental drag race.

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Double, super secret safe launch distances?

(and what are you against air starts?)

DavidMcCann said:

Double, super secret safe launch distances?

(and what are you against air starts?)

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Die, heretic scum!

Bayou Rat, I'm still not seeing it?????

From what I read Drag races are still allowed.......

Can you share the information of concern please?

Thank you.

Lowpuller said:

Bayou Rat, I'm still not seeing it?????

From what I read Drag races are still allowed.......

Can you share the information of concern please?

Thank you.

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Near as my alcoholism translator can tell.....he recently found out about drag race rules setting further safe distances, that were put into place years ago. He's gotten confused by the recent changes to the NFPA that actually softened these rules....and lost his mind.

MClark said:

It was me.
The rule 6-3 was derived from the LDRS 32 event rules I created.
https://www.rimworld.com/tripoligerlach/ldrs/flyerinfo.html

M

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Mark...you are a bad man...a very, VERY, BAD man!!!!:wink:

cbrarick said:

Full disclosure: I love me some drag race. I'll play anywhere, any power. In fact, I've sponsored several as "wildman CT"
However, it I gotta stroll a little farther, no big deal. If it keeps things safe, all the better. I've always believed that there's a pad for every rocket, the only question being "are you willing to walk that far?"

Maybe I'm simple, but I don't see any problem.

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The problem is that clubs don't have the equipment in place to do it. Here is an example that is currently happening to me. I want to fly a 3 rocket simultaneous launch with K motors. The total of all three rockets says they have to be at the 1,000' M pads. The club only has one pad out at the 1000" mark and only the capacity for one set of leads. So they said no drag race. It's like the marijuana tax stamp. They made it unobtainable. It's not an outright ban.

blackjack2564 said:

Mark...you are a bad man...a very, VERY, BAD man!!!!:wink:

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And I'm sure I've made him miserable. Very miserable!! LOL!

You could buy the equipment to pull it off. It's not a tax stamp situation. It's a real safety concern that you keep dodging and trying to obscure and deflect.

BayouRat said:

The club only has one pad out at the 1000" mark and only the capacity for one set of leads..

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Dee....de...Deee....

It's a DRAG Race. YOU only NEED ONE set of leads going out! Your gonna fire all 3 at once!
Just DRAG out 2 more pads and rig up a 3 to 1 set of clips or just wire the 3 igniters into the one lead with shooting wire.

I've done that .....Leads go to center pad and bring other 2 sets to same clips..Voila Race time!

Don't worry Whit, I ain't gonna let you forget this one...LOL

PS...don't give me any crap about not enough voltage at that pad. Rig e-matches fortified with pyro or secret sauce. I KNOW you know how to do that...

Here's my thoughts, whatever they're worth (copied from my FB response, so the specific references might not translate fully)
...
1) anyone tossing around the term "redneck" is obviously throwing insults around and needs to stop, we're all hobbyists, calling anyone names is simple childish.
2) the TRA board was disingenuous when they enacted these changes because a) there was no conversation with the Tripoli membership regarding the possible changes, b) they didn't outlaw drag races outright, they just made it ridiculously stupid launch distances, and c) there was zero precipitating event that caused this change in the rules.
3) this is a hobby, not rocket science. We're not scientists, we're hobbyists. If we play around with scientific stuff, that's because we're having fun doing it.
4) You're right, there's little or no point in drag races other than we like it. It could also be said that there's little or no point to launching rockets as a hobby anyway, so that point is completely moot (if you think otherwise, see point #3)
5) all the discussion about safety being compounded is based solely on conjecture because again, there was no precipitating event that initiated this change (see also, point #2c). What this means is that no drag race has ever (EVER) produced a more negative outcome than launching rockets one at a time.
6) Mass drag races are such a rare occurrence that it's clear this is a targeted rule change aimed squarely at a few clubs from a specific group of individuals
7) had there been an overwhelming push for this rule change from the membership, I'd keep my mouth shut.
8) I like drag races. They're fun to watch. Why are many of my fellow hobbyists so rudely condescending what I like to do? Should I make fun of the over-meticulous modeler because I think it's silly? No! It's all about whatever gets your rocks off because, you know... This is a hobby.
It's a friggin hobby, guys. A hobby. Like chess. Or boot-licking. Or wood carving. Whatever gets your goat, go for it. Reasonably. And for 40 years, drag races have been as reasonable as single launches.
All that said, let me remind everyone of my first point... Hold the insults, please. Let's just chat and launch some rockets, shall we?

CzTeacherMan said:

2) the TRA board was disingenuous when they enacted these changes because a) there was no conversation with the Tripoli membership regarding the possible changes, b) they didn't outlaw drag races outright, they just made it ridiculously stupid launch distances, and c) there was zero precipitating event that caused this change in the rules.

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a) this happened years ago... not sure if it was discussed, but it may have been...I'll defer on this unless someone else can chime in.
b) They're not stupid.... they're SAFE. Safety is not determined by convenience
c) Ummmm...how many drags have had multiple failures?


A meticulous modeler does not put others at risk with his efforts, so that's a pointless comparison.

The facts are-

1) it's less safe.
2) there is no justification for that increased risk
3) the majority of fliers do not participate in them, so there is even less of a point in trying to justify the risk.
4) it's not banned. simply organize the people who want to do it, get the gear, and put out the pads at a safe distance.

DavidMcCann said:

a) this happened years ago... not sure if it was discussed, but it may have been...I'll defer on this unless someone else can chime in.
b) They're not stupid.... they're SAFE. Safety is not determined by convenience
c) Ummmm...how many drags have had multiple failures?

A meticulous modeler does not put others at risk with his efforts, so that's a pointless comparison.

The facts are-

1) it's less safe.
2) there is no justification for that increased risk
3) the majority of fliers do not participate in them, so there is even less of a point in trying to justify the risk.
4) it's not banned. simply organize the people who want to do it, get the gear, and put out the pads at a safe distance.

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David,
I disagree, here's why:
1) there's no evidence of less safety
2) there's no justification for the risk of launching rockets, period. Especially two-stage. Especially EX. Especially clusters. All of which increase the risk.
3) the majority of flyers do not fly two-stage or ex or clusters, so there's even less of a point in trying to justify the risk
4) you and I both know that they're effectively banning drag races because the distance required for the large, massive drag races we know we're all talking about means that those launches are so far away that they're no fun any more. Let's not play rhetorical games... Sure they're not banned, but effectively, it would be a ridiculous thing to make it happen. They've effectively banned the mass drag races that we've seen at certain launches.
...
I know where you stand, you know whether I stand. I'm not under any delusions to think I'll convince you otherwise. And honestly, I've yet to see any persuasive arguments against my points. I've seen more danger from two-stage launches gone awry than the mass drag races I've witnessed. And I mean that seriously.
The clubs I fly with will abide by the new rules because the clubs I fly with follow rules. However, I will do what little I can to overturn the recent change so that once a year I can witness a dozen M motors lighting at once. Cause it's cool. In the mean time, I'll gripe about it and build and fly my rockets one at a time.

CzTeacherMan said:

David,
I disagree, here's why:
1) there's no evidence of less safety
2) there's no justification for the risk of launching rockets, period. Especially two-stage. Especially EX. Especially clusters. All of which increase the risk.
3) the majority of flyers do not fly two-stage or ex or clusters, so there's even less of a point in trying to justify the risk
4) you and I both know that they're effectively banning drag races because the distance required for the large, massive drag races we know we're all telling about means that those launches are so far away that they're no fun any more. Let's not play rhetorical games... Sure they're not banned, but effectively, it would be a ridiculous thing to make it happen. They've effectively banned the mass drag races that we've seen at certain launches.
...
I know where you stand, you know whether I stand. I'm not under any delusions to think I'll convince you otherwise. And honestly, I've yet to see any persuasive arguments against my points. I've seen more danger from two-stage launches gone awry than the mass drag races I've witnessed. And I mean that seriously.
The clubs I fly with will abide by the new rules because the clubs I fly with follow rules. However, I will do what little I can to overturn the recent change so that once a year I can witness a dozen M motors lighting at once. Cause it's cool. In the mean time, I'll gripe about it and build and fly my rockets one at a time.

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1) Being unable to track everything in the air is a safety issue. It's why we don't fire off the next rocket until we're sure the one in the air is landing safely.
2)A single rocket is an acceptable risk. two stage? same thing. EX, still, acceptable risk, and all trackable. there's one danger event at a time. Two in the air pushes the risk to an unacceptable level.
3) this is a dodge, not a reply.
4)so far away it's not fun? I've seen K's from the M pads. it's still fun. this is a whine, not a problem. It's not a ban. You could organize an event setup just for drag races.
If once a year you want to see a dozen M's kick off.....setup an event and do it at a safe distance.

blackjack2564 said:

Dee....de...Deee....

It's a DRAG Race. YOU only NEED ONE set of leads going out! Your gonna fire all 3 at once!
Just DRAG out 2 more pads and rig up a 3 to 1 set of clips or just wire the 3 igniters into the one lead with shooting wire.

I've done that .....Leads go to center pad and bring other 2 sets to same clips..Voila Race time!

Don't worry Whit, I ain't gonna let you forget this one...LOL

PS...don't give me any crap about not enough voltage at that pad. Rig e-matches fortified with pyro or secret sauce. I KNOW you know how to do that...

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Well duh! But there is only one pad out there. The leads not the problem. I am working on bringing my clubs pads with me. I will have to check to see if they will let me use your aforementioned additional leads trick.
But their current sentiment is no drag races!

Put your money where your mouth is.

Host a drag-only event and see how many people show up.

The majority of fliers don't fly MD n5800's. Or airstarts. These all increase risk along some dimension, and there is no justification for most of what we do other than fun & challenge.

I'm not trying to be contentious ( remember, I like the rules fairly well as they currently stand ); I just don't find these to be very compelling arguments.

OK guys, let's get serious about the safety issue. Remember that guy who got killed in CA? That was a drag race, and he didn't see the rocket that came in ballistic. What about the Wildman drag races at Midwest Power? OK, take a look at this one from 5 years ago or so: [video=youtube;wHhTypnw5Og]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHhTypnw5Og[/video] Of the 9-10 rockets in that drag race, 3+ didn't survive boost and there was a rain of parts. So don't try to say that there's no safety issue here.

Yes, staging, Ex, and clusters all have their own special dangers. And that's why they all have their own special rules (tiltometers, TRA Research rules, heads-up flights, etc.). Drag races have a set of rules now that are based on mitigating real risks. Does that mean there's probably no more Wildman drag races? Maybe, but seriously, if you're shredding 30%+ of the rockets, might that not be a good thing?

dhbarr said:

The majority of fliers don't fly MD n5800's. Or airstarts. These all increase risk along some dimension, and there is no justification for most of what we do other than fun & challenge.

I'm not trying to be contentious ( remember, I like the rules fairly well as they currently stand ); I just don't find these to be very compelling arguments.

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But there is a line where the risk becomes unacceptable. Drag racing breaks that line, and the rules are in place to mitigate that risk to an acceptable level...

Well the guy in California that was killed was not related to the drag race at all. The nose cone was glued on. It was not a sanctioned launch so there was no RSO and it was low power Estes rockets.

So in the video can you show me the people getting hurt or anyone being killed. I didn't see anything that could or would not happen if only one rocket was launched. I don't see the mitigating real risk you speak of. Where is the data to support your hypothesis?

DavidMcCann said:

But there is a line where the risk becomes unacceptable. Drag racing breaks that line, and the rules are in place to mitigate that risk to an acceptable level...

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So where is this line drawn? How is it any more risky than the same rockets being launched one at a time. The same risk of failure exist. You make no sense.

DavidMcCann said:

1) Being unable to track everything in the air is a safety issue. It's why we don't fire off the next rocket until we're sure the one in the air is landing safely.

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Finally Mr. McCann hints at why this new rule makes absolutely no sense...

As a long-time participant and observer of the most extreme drag races back to Midwest Power 3, I can tell you changing the safe launch distance contributes little to nothing with respect to safety in a large drag race, and worse, instead gives all involved a false sense of security since it is emanating as an edict from "experts."

Think about it practically. A safe distance standard guards against an event(s) occurring at or closely after launch. Hate to say, but how wrong can experts be??!!! The danger in a HPR drag race is NOT THE UP PART, it's the down part. The danger is, and always has been, a faulty apogee event on one or more rockets. In fact, I'd argue that by moving observers farther from the pad, the so-called experts actually have now put them in more danger given typical ballistic trajectories and splash patterns.

BayouRat said:

Well the guy in California that was killed was not related to the drag race at all. The nose cone was glued on. It was not a sanctioned launch so there was no RSO and it was low power Estes rockets.
\

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1- it was related to the drag race. He couldn't track two rockets, and one hit him.
2- the reason for the ballistic return is irrelevant. if it's glued on, a jammed NC or a failed altimeter. same issue- a ballistic rocket coming in with multiple objects in the air makes it hard or nearly impossible to track them all.
3- it doesn't matter if it was sanctioned or RSO'd. how does an RSO'd rocket coming in ballistic act any differently than any other ballistic return?

The point here is there were two rockets in the air, one came back ballistic and killed a man because he couldn't track two objects. The reason it came in ballistic, or if it was RSO'd is completely irrelevant.


The people have spoken, the rule is in place. I doubt you'll get enough following of people who want to risk their lives to stand closer to a drag race. at best maybe you could get approval for an "idiot box" 100' from the pads you could all walk out to while the sane people stay back at the safe flight line.

dixontj93060 said:

Think about it practically. A safe distance standard guards against an event(s) occurring at or closely after launch. Hate to say, but how wrong can experts be??!!! The danger in a HPR drag race is NOT THE UP PART, it's the down part. The danger is, and always has been, a faulty apogee event on one or more rockets. In fact, I'd argue that by moving observers farther from the pad, the so-called experts actually have now put them in more danger given typical ballistic trajectories and splash patterns.

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Well, you're pointing to a reason for an outright ban on drag races

I'll put a word in for supporting the distances.... I've watched flights and photographed them from a variety of distances. The further away you are...the easier it is to track the entire flight, and multiple rockets. it's an angle and apparent speed thing.