Black Powder Cluster Ignition

Now that the Quest Q2G2 igniters seem to be in such short supply has anyone come up with some other reliable igniters for cluster flights? Has anyone tried the Aerotech First Fire Minis?

Rocketron

Flashbulbs.. Pm me for more in depth information. Or you might try a search. It has been mentioned several times over the years.

When I finish my Richter Recker, I plan to use AT First Fires. I use Frankum Performance igniters in my At motors, so the first fires are available for other things.

Cannon fuse. You cut short lengths of fuse, as many as you have motors in your cluster. Then you cut an extra length that is a little longer. You tape them together in a bunch, like you're making a flower. The long length is the stem and the short ones are the petals. You stick an igniter into the bottom of the stem, Estes igniters work file. Voilà. Now you have regulation-compliant, electrically-ignited multi-motor system.

Ari.

Not sure about the new Estes igniters, but I never had issues with up to 4 motors using a 12V (car battery) launch system. I do this with my Viper IV and 4 D12s:

Get good igniters (not broken, rusty, or shorted).
Pull paper off to give the leads more room.
Stick in nozzle with motors nozzle end up and add a little 4F BP to make sure it lights.
Use the plug to secure it with the leads spread apart, but towards the center.
Twist the 8 into 4 pairs (leads should be crossed already with the motor next to it on each side)
Twist pairs together with the par on the opposite side (now have 4 - one from each motor).
Use a piece of masking tape to cover any wires shorting between the 2 sets (might be 1 or 2 places).

iter said:

Cannon fuse. You cut short lengths of fuse, as many as you have motors in your cluster. Then you cut an extra length that is a little longer. You tape them together in a bunch, like you're making a flower. The long length is the stem and the short ones are the petals. You stick an igniter into the bottom of the stem, Estes igniters work file. Voilà. Now you have regulation-compliant, electrically-ignited multi-motor system.

Ari.

Click to expand...

Canon fuse is such a bad idea in so many ways, including slow burn rate. You want something to burn really fast. Thermalite will do it, but it's unavailable. Flashbulbs with a tape ring and a pinch of bp in the nozzle will light all clusters every time.

jimzcatz said:

Canon fuse is such a bad idea in so many ways, including slow burn rate. You want something to burn really fast.

Click to expand...

How is burn rate a problem? You want all motors in a cluster to ignite at the same time, if it's .25 seconds after LCO presses the button or .75, what does that change?

Ari.

Because the Canon fuse with never light uniformly. That's my experience anyway, of course ymmv.

jimzcatz said:

Because the Canon fuse with never light uniformly. That's my experience anyway, of course ymmv.

Click to expand...

+1 Canon fuse is an awful idea for clusted bp motors. Please; do not use it, you will never get all motors started anywhere near the same time.

All cluster flying should always be done with a Relay ignition system at the Launcher, with as high an amp/hr rated battery as you can afford.
Igniters can be home made if dipped with a bp or pyordex/NC lacquer tip. Personally I use an Al/Ap mixture on my custom 30ga nichrome igniters to get a slightly slower burn rate that allows all motors in 2-12 motor clusters get started before first motion of the rocket.

If interested in REALLY reliable BP motor ignition regardless of igniter chosen, visit www.narhams.org from the left hand drop down menu look for the Library section and Tech Tip folder, download Tech Tip-006 - Clustering BP motors. This in depth tech tip will give the reader a complete look at what has to happen in the first fraction of a second of the launch button being pushed to have multi-motor cluster ignition success.

I've had good luck with Quickmatch. 6" burns in a flash. I tape the bundle below the motors and insert any igniter.

Micromeister said:

+1 Canon fuse is an awful idea for clusted bp motors. do not use it, you will never get all motors started anywhere near the same time.

All cluster flying should always be done with a Relay ignition system at the Launcher, with as high an amp/hr rated battery as you can afford.
Igniters can be home made if dipped with a bp or pyordex/NC lacquer tip. Personally I use an Al/Ap mixture on my custom 30ga nichrome igniters to get a slightly slower burn rate that allows all motors in 2-12 motor clusters get started before first motion of the rocket.

If interested in REALLY reliable BP motor ignition regardless of igniter chosen, visit www.narhams.org from the left hand drop down menu look for the Library section and Tech Tip folder, download Tech Tip-006 - Clustering BP motors. This in depth tech tip will give the reader a complete look at what has to happen in the first fraction of a second of the launch button being pushed to have multi-motor cluster ignition success.

Click to expand...

Thanks, most of that was a refresher but the visual diagrams of common setups was pretty useful.

I somewhat hesitate to say this but there's always what's known as "flash-in-the-pan" method. 1 igniter and a close fitting pan under the cluster with 1/8th to 3/16ths of an inch of black powder. I have a 9 motored cluster built specifically for this way of ignition but have yet to fly it. A 24mm main with 4 x 18 mm and 4 x 13mm mounts in a BT70 sized body. Should be fun

dave carver said:

I somewhat hesitate to say this but there's always what's known as "flash-in-the-pan" method. 1 igniter and a close fitting pan under the cluster with 1/8th to 3/16ths of an inch of black powder. I have a 9 motored cluster built specifically for this way of ignition but have yet to fly it. A 24mm main with 4 x 18 mm and 4 x 13mm mounts in a BT70 sized body. Should be fun

Click to expand...

Is the idea that the motors ignite like a gap-staged set-up? Interesting....

E-matches

Flashpan -- no need to hesitate in saying it, it works wonders if done right!

Spider --https://meatballrocketry.com/pvc-spider/ ; https://archive.rocketreviews.com/reviews/all/roach_soyuz.shtml (scroll down)

Rocketflite igniters -- www.rocketflite.com (they have an ematch kit and a "ClusterFire" kit, but I'd reccomend the ematch kit for BP, clusterfires more for AP and have a higher current draw)

Flashbulb

Estes igniters

Edit: also quickmatch and thermalite

I personally wouldn't waste First Fire igniters on a BP cluster. Not only are they costly, their hefty pyrogen head is overkill for BP. Though it'll work for sure.

dave carver said:

I somewhat hesitate to say this but there's always what's known as "flash-in-the-pan" method. 1 igniter and a close fitting pan under the cluster with 1/8th to 3/16ths of an inch of black powder. I have a 9 motored cluster built specifically for this way of ignition but have yet to fly it. A 24mm main with 4 x 18 mm and 4 x 13mm mounts in a BT70 sized body. Should be fun

Click to expand...

Dave:
Flash Pans do work as long as you don't mind charring the Aft end of your rocket. Personally I wouldn't use a flash pan for any BP Cluster under say 20 motors.

dave carver said:

I somewhat hesitate to say this but there's always what's known as "flash-in-the-pan" method. 1 igniter and a close fitting pan under the cluster with 1/8th to 3/16ths of an inch of black powder. I have a 9 motored cluster built specifically for this way of ignition but have yet to fly it. A 24mm main with 4 x 18 mm and 4 x 13mm mounts in a BT70 sized body. Should be fun

Click to expand...

I've used a variant of the flash pan, known as a blister pack. Just fill in the spaces between the motors. Wrap masking tape around the outside. Fill in the gaps from the tape. Pour in the powder to each motor and enough to connect them all. Fold over the tape and keep adding more tape to form the blister. Insert 1 igniter into the bottom and cover with last bits of tape. Keep it tight enough to not allow the powder to shift when upside down.

I used this on 7 motor clusters several times. Poof! Whoosh! Big smoke cloud.

^^very cool.

cavecentral said:

I've used a variant of the flash pan, known as a blister pack. Just fill in the spaces between the motors. Wrap masking tape around the outside. Fill in the gaps from the tape. Pour in the powder to each motor and enough to connect them all. Fold over the tape and keep adding more tape to form the blister. Insert 1 igniter into the bottom and cover with last bits of tape. Keep it tight enough to not allow the powder to shift when upside down.

I used this on 7 motor clusters several times. Poof! Whoosh! Big smoke cloud.

Click to expand...

My favorite! Also if you pack it tight enough you get a nice little "Pop" at ignition. I used this on my Loc Vipers three and four for years. Ended up painting the fin cans black though.

I wish I could find the link for a method I saw several years ago. I have a 7 C motor cluster rocket that will use a variation of the method. The designer made an aluminum (I think) block with holes drilled in the motor pattern. Small pieces of metal tubing lead from each hole to the bottom of the motor. The underside of the aluminum block was hollowed out for a pile of BP. I think he used tape or something that would not seal the BP too tight. He had video or at least photos of the flash. It's a flash in the pan method that adds some elegance. Really, the blister pack method sounds very similar.

I found it. It's PVC, not aluminum. https://meatballrocketry.com/pvc-spider/

cavecentral said:

Not sure about the new Estes igniters, but I never had issues with up to 4 motors using a 12V (car battery) launch system. I do this with my Viper IV and 4 D12s:

Get good igniters (not broken, rusty, or shorted).
Pull paper off to give the leads more room.
Stick in nozzle with motors nozzle end up and add a little 4F BP to make sure it lights.
Use the plug to secure it with the leads spread apart, but towards the center.
Twist the 8 into 4 pairs (leads should be crossed already with the motor next to it on each side)
Twist pairs together with the par on the opposite side (now have 4 - one from each motor).
Use a piece of masking tape to cover any wires shorting between the 2 sets (might be 1 or 2 places).

Click to expand...

Think this is the Best advice.
I built a Richter Reckor when I got some gift kits from J. Flis for doing display models for him.
It was actually my first foray into BP clusters (yes, I got a late start).

Using the above advice, it never failed to light them all exactly on cue.

For the adventurous, try Josh's spider device for many BP motors.
- or check Boris K. system for many many BP motors.

Len B said:

I wish I could find the link for a method I saw several years ago. I have a 7 C motor cluster rocket that will use a variation of the method. The designer made an aluminum (I think) block with holes drilled in the motor pattern. Small pieces of metal tubing lead from each hole to the bottom of the motor. The underside of the aluminum block was hollowed out for a pile of BP. I think he used tape or something that would not seal the BP too tight. He had video or at least photos of the flash. It's a flash in the pan method that adds some elegance. Really, the blister pack method sounds very similar.

I found it. It's PVC, not aluminum. https://meatballrocketry.com/pvc-spider/

Click to expand...

Yes, That's Josh 's spider device he used for his Saturn 1 block II SA-5 scale model.

Then for an interesting read you can follow this one ..
https://bpasa.com/2011.htm#Soyuz
https://bpasa.com/Cluster-box.htm

The reason I said "hesitant" was due to a few jumping down my throat the last time I brought it up. None of that this time thankfully

dave carver said:

The reason I said "hesitant" was due to a few jumping down my throat the last time I brought it up. None of that this time thankfully

Click to expand...

LOL!
as mentioned above the only real down size to the Ol'e Flash Pan cluster ignition is the Charring of the aft end of the rockets they are used on. In some cases (Clusters over 16-20 motors, it is one of the #1 choices. However the enclosed taped track method does a little less damage....but still can and will charr the aft end and fins. It's one of those choices that require a compromise on What our Rockets will look like after that first flight.

Bat-mite said:

When I finish my Richter Recker, I plan to use AT First Fires. I use Frankum Performance igniters in my At motors, so the first fires are available for other things.

Click to expand...

+1, if you can't get Q2G2's then the small First Fires are the next best thing. They're a bit pricey, though. #1 success factor is having a really good ignition system... car battery is good.

A german motor manufacturer came up with this product:
It is scotch tape with black powder rolled around a spaghetti. (I know it sounds strange but it works.)

This tube is inserted into the motor and the tubes are connected with tape with black powder on it.

this works very well.

Have used the Klima tape and straws on 2 occasions for 3 motor clusters and so far all good. Tape and sticks burn very rapidly. (power is on one side of cellotape == fold over to seal and increase burn rate, sticks are filled not coated in BP == increased burn rate)

Dill's pipe cleaners coated with meal paste and contained in spent 18 or 24 mm casings. Works for me.

thomas said:

A german motor manufacturer came up with this product:
It is scotch tape with black powder rolled around a spaghetti. (I know it sounds strange but it works.)
View attachment 292901
This tube is inserted into the motor and the tubes are connected with tape with black powder on it.
View attachment 292902
this works very well.

Click to expand...

That looks like sticky match or quik match. Pyro guys use it in displays

On the power supply side, I personally don't understand why capacitors have never made it into this hobby.

The troubles of transporting high amps across distance aren't new. Wasn't Mr Edison building power stations every 4-6 blocks before Mr Tesla demonstrated a rotating magnetic field that could create AC? But at the end of the day, it was converting low voltage into high voltage for the 'journey' and back into the desirable voltage at the other end that was perhaps the largest breakthrough.

Back to today's model rockets- if we combined a simple step-up transformer, with a capacitor, even a single AA battery could light a cluster.

As an owner of camera gear I notice that my on camera flashes step 4 AA's to ? a rather high voltage. Canon's 8 AA battery booster packs deliver 330v and these aren't that much larger than many of the hand held lauch controllers out there (still fit comfortably into one hand). Again, add a 330v capacitor and as long as the nichrome wire based ignitors didn't melt outside of the motor, and I don't imagine you'd need a relay system for the vast majority of applications.

Has anyone tried this?

It could be done, but not easier or with a simpler circuit than a relay launcher. Its not as simple as a transformer and capacitor. Igniters require energy to ignite , not just high voltage. It takes time to transfer enough heat to the motor.
High voltage ignition has been used with hypertek hybrids. They don't even use an igniter in the traditional sense, just an arc in gaseous oxygen.