Altitude Limit For Class 1 Rockets?

My question is this: is the altitude limit for a Class 1 rocket (under 3.3 lbs, less than 125g of propellant, etc.) flown at a HPR launch site limited to the Class 2 HPR waiver height?

My launch site has a 5,000' waiver. I am planning a 29mm minimum diameter rocket that on a mid-size H motor that has less than 125 grams of propellant (CTI H255-WT for example) could hit 7,000 feet.

Since it uses an H motor, it then must follow the HPR Rocketry Safety Code, but since it is only a Class 1 rocket, it only has to follow Class 1 rocket regulations.

Class 1 Model Rockets

Class 1 rockets include what used to be known as model and large model rockets. They are defined at 14 CFR 101.22(a):

Class 1 Model Rocket means an amateur rocket that:

Uses no more than 125 grams (4.4 ounces) of propellant;
Uses a slow-burning propellant;
Is made of paper, wood, or breakable plastic;
Contains no substantial metal parts; and
Weighs no more than 1,500 grams (53 ounces), including the propellant.

Under the old rules launching large model rockets required prior notification of the FAA. Under the new rules no such notification is required. So long as the general operating limitations at 14 CFR 101.23 listed below are followed, they can be freely launched.

You must operate an amateur rocket in such a manner that it:
Is launched on a suborbital trajectory;
When launched, must not cross into the territory of a foreign country unless an agreement is in place between the United States and the country of concern;
Is unmanned; and
Does not create a hazard to persons, property, or other aircraft.
The FAA may specify additional operating limitations necessary to ensure that air traffic is not adversely affected, and public safety is not jeopardized.

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In the NAR HPR safety code, under "Launch Site" it says:

Launch Site. I will launch my rocket outdoors, in an open area where trees, power lines, occupied buildings, and persons not involved in the launch do not present a hazard, and that is at least as large on its smallest dimension as one-half of the maximum altitude to which rockets are allowed to be flown at that site or 1500 feet, whichever is greater

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So per these two documents, it seems to me that if the HPR launch sites smallest dimension was 3,500', then with a Class 1 rocket you could theoretically launch up to 7,000' AGL despite the sites 5,000' HPR waiver?

What do you guys think?

Also, what is a launch sites "smallest dimension"? Not every farm is a nice square or rectangle, so what exactly does this mean?

If the motor is an H, you're bound by HPR regs. If you were flying a Class 1 rocket on a NFPA/FAA G motor (< 160 N-s total impulse, < 80 N-S average impulse, < 125 g of propellant) and you expected your rocket to bust the waiver, you still couldn't fly it there... at least with the club. I've flown rockets similar to what you're proposing, and with a G40 I got just under 4,000'. If you really want altitude, get the 24mm CTI G... the skinnier rocket will go somewhat higher. The NAR record for a G is about 1900m, those records are usually set by guys that build extremely light fiberglass models with impeccable finishes.

cerving said:

If the motor is an H, you're bound by HPR regs. If you were flying a Class 1 rocket on a NFPA/FAA G motor... you still couldn't fly it there... at least with the club.

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Show me anywhere in the regulations that supports these statements. Class 1 doesn't need a waiver and if the launch site dimensions are compatible with the altitude and you have Level 1 certification (for the H), I don't see what else you need.

mikec said:

Show me anywhere in the regulations that supports these statements. Class 1 doesn't need a waiver and if the launch site dimensions are compatible with the altitude and you have Level 1 certification (for the H), I don't see what else you need.

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I think we've had this same discussion before. While I agree with mikec about the letter if the regulations I still maintain that it's good form to respect the waiver altitude no matter what you are flying.

mikec said:

Show me anywhere in the regulations that supports these statements. Class 1 doesn't need a waiver and if the launch site dimensions are compatible with the altitude and you have Level 1 certification (for the H), I don't see what else you need.

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Maybe or maybe not, but if you're going to bust the club's waiver the RSO has an obligation to say "No". There are NAR clubs that fly only Class 1 and have a ceiling for their launch site, it doesn't matter which motor you're using. Your "H" flight IS high power, so it DOES require an FAA waiver. If you fly with a Class 1 G motor, you might be able to get away with flying it on your own, but like I said earlier you will find that getting to your club's 5000' waiver with that combination will be challenging.

cerving said:

Your "H" flight IS high power, so it DOES require an FAA waiver.

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Nope. Any motor with <= 125 grams of propellant in a rocket <= 1500 grams is Class 1 and does not require an FAA waiver, regardless of total impulse (FAR 101.22).

Clubs can impose any additional rules they wish, but there is nothing in the regulations or safety codes that I can find that suggests you can't fly above the waiver altitude at an HPR launch with a Class 1 rocket. Obviously I wouldn't do it without the knowledge and permission of the club.

There are special cases where the FAA has imposed an altitude limit even for Class 1 operations, but those are the exception rather than the rule AFAIK.

mikec said:

Nope. Any motor with <= 125 grams of propellant in a rocket <= 3300 grams is Class 1 and does not require an FAA waiver, regardless of total impulse (FAR 101.22).

.

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3300 grams is over 7 pounds

Area66 said:

3300 grams is over 7 pounds

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Sorry, 1500 grams, 3.3 pounds. Edited to fix.

I believe the distinction is that it is not expected that a Class 1 rocket would cause significant damage to an aircraft upon impact, due to its size and weight. So no waiver.

Still, I would be very careful to make sure you cannot see or hear any aircraft in the vicinity of your launch site before launching. And of the RSO says no, then it's no.

There are FAA regulations and there are NAR/TRA regulations, and there are differences.

1. Class 1 rockets (upper limit: lift-off weight =< 1500 grams, total propellant weight =< 125 grams) do not require a waiver. Class 2 rockets (lower limit: lift-off weight > 1500 grams, total propellant weight > 125 grams) require a waiver. There are no altitude restrictions as far as the FAA is concerned, however you can not interfere with aircraft operations.

2. The FAA doesn't care about total impulse, high power/low power designations, or personal certifications.

3. A H-impulse motor, and any lower impulse class motor with an average thrust > 80 N or generating sparks are by definition a high power motor and must comply with the NAR/TRA high power safety code.

4. Individual launching high power rockets as defined by NAR/TRA must be high power certified.

5. NAR/TRA follow NFPA 1122 and 1127 code guidelines. The RSO controls an organized NAR/TRA sanctioned launch. He has the final and unquestionable authority to grant or deny launch permissions. Whatever he says goes. Whatever he says doesn't go, doesn't go.

Bob

bobkrech said:

1. Class 1 rockets (upper limit: lift-off weight =< 1500 grams, total propellant weight =< 125 grams) do not require a waiver. Class 2 rockets (lower limit: lift-off weight > 1500 grams, total propellant weight > 125 grams) require a waiver. There are no altitude restrictions as far as the FAA is concerned, however you can not interfere with aircraft operations.

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Glad I read this thread as it made me realize something - my under construction Estes F15-0 booster with two D12 pods (to actually get some good velocity off the rod) with an Estes F15-8 sustainer (sims to 3833 ft) is a Class 2 rocket requiring launch on an FAA waiver day whereas a composite propellant powered rocket with the Class 1 124g of propellant but with much more total impulse than my BP powered rocket wouldn't be because the "FAA doesn't care about total impulse" or max altitude. Gotta' love it.

Winston said:

Glad I read this thread as it made me realize something - my under construction Estes F15-0 booster with two D12 pods (to actually get some good velocity off the rod) with an Estes F15-8 sustainer (sims to 3833 ft) is a Class 2 rocket requiring launch on an FAA waiver day whereas a composite propellant powered rocket with the Class 1 124g of propellant but with much more total impulse than my BP powered rocket wouldn't be because the "FAA doesn't care about total impulse" or max altitude. Gotta' love it.

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I did a J350 on a Christmas tree and called the FAA about a waiver for it...>125grams of propellant and total weight >1500 grams. They asked me how high it was going, I estimated it to 100 feet and they said "Have fun". The regs are general guidelines and I would like to keep it that way...too many regs to cover everything just complicates things.

Winston said:

Glad I read this thread as it made me realize something - my under construction Estes F15-0 booster with two D12 pods (to actually get some good velocity off the rod) with an Estes F15-8 sustainer (sims to 3833 ft) is a Class 2 rocket requiring launch on an FAA waiver day whereas a composite propellant powered rocket with the Class 1 124g of propellant but with much more total impulse than my BP powered rocket wouldn't be because the "FAA doesn't care about total impulse" or max altitude. Gotta' love it.

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An old guy at a launch a while back told me this was because the FAA was smart. Why cluster inefficient, heavy, dangerous, low tech and kiddie black powder motors when you can use one high tech, efficient and super cool composite motor showing your adult intelligence and rocket science proficiency. Regulate away the silly, kiddie BP cluster dudes and make way for the real men of science. All I could do was :cry:

RocketHunter said:

My question is this: is the altitude limit for a Class 1 rocket (under 3.3 lbs, less than 125g of propellant, etc.) flown at a HPR launch site limited to the Class 2 HPR waiver height?

My launch site has a 5,000' waiver. I am planning a 29mm minimum diameter rocket that on a mid-size H motor that has less than 125 grams of propellant (CTI H255-WT for example) could hit 7,000 feet.

Since it uses an H motor, it then must follow the HPR Rocketry Safety Code, but since it is only a Class 1 rocket, it only has to follow Class 1 rocket regulations.




In the NAR HPR safety code, under "Launch Site" it says:



So per these two documents, it seems to me that if the HPR launch sites smallest dimension was 3,500', then with a Class 1 rocket you could theoretically launch up to 7,000' AGL despite the sites 5,000' HPR waiver?

What do you guys think?

Also, what is a launch sites "smallest dimension"? Not every farm is a nice square or rectangle, so what exactly does this mean?

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Waivers are granted according to your site boundaries. I'm sure your club applied for the highest waiver possible at the sight, unless the club has self imposed that altitude or has been otherwise restricted by the FAA. The FAA 1/4 distance to altitude rule coincides with the NAR/TRA 1/2 distance (smallest site dimension) to altitude rule.

At our site we have an 8000 ft. waiver. From our launch pads we have a occupied house/ property 2200 ft. away. If it wasn't for that house we could get a 10 or 12 K ft. waiver. Any way with a 2000 ft. (FAA x 4 =8000 ALT) clearance in all directions/radius we have in effect a 4000 x 4000 ft. (NAR x 2 = 8000 ALT) site, although much bigger for recovery.

With a 5000 ft. waiver at your site and flying a HPR motor, you most likely do not have the "room" to fly that motor to 7000 ft. If it wasn't a HPR motor and fell under a class 1 rocket classification, sky's the limit, or RSO!!

rcktnut said:

Waivers are granted according to your site boundaries. I'm sure your club applied for the highest waiver possible at the sight, unless the club has self imposed that altitude or has been otherwise restricted by the FAA. The FAA 1/4 distance to altitude rule coincides with the NAR/TRA 1/2 distance (smallest site dimension) to altitude rule.

At our site we have an 8000 ft. waiver. From our launch pads we have a occupied house/ property 2200 ft. away. If it wasn't for that house we could get a 10 or 12 K ft. waiver. Any way with a 2000 ft. (FAA x 4 =8000 ALT) clearance in all directions/radius we have in effect a 4000 x 4000 ft. (NAR x 2 = 8000 ALT) site, although much bigger for recovery.

With a 5000 ft. waiver at your site and flying a HPR motor, you most likely do not have the "room" to fly that motor to 7000 ft. If it wasn't a HPR motor and fell under a class 1 rocket classification, sky's the limit, or RSO!!

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I guess I don't understand your reasoning here. What does flying an HPR motor have to do with it. The rocket is a class 1 rocket even with the HPR motor and has no FAA restrictions on it.

I think the real question is, if he launched the rocket from that exact same site, but on his own instead of at a sanctioned launch, would he be legal? If that answer is yes, then it is really up to the RSO if he will allow the flight at his sanctioned launch. That is totally an RSO question and "right" or "wrong" doesn't matter, the RSO is god at the sanctioned launch, if he says no, it's NO.

rcktnut said:

Waivers are granted according to your site boundaries. I'm sure your club applied for the highest waiver possible at the sight, unless the club has self imposed that altitude or has been otherwise restricted by the FAA. The FAA 1/4 distance to altitude rule coincides with the NAR/TRA 1/2 distance (smallest site dimension) to altitude rule.

At our site we have an 8000 ft. waiver. From our launch pads we have a occupied house/ property 2200 ft. away. If it wasn't for that house we could get a 10 or 12 K ft. waiver. Any way with a 2000 ft. (FAA x 4 =8000 ALT) clearance in all directions/radius we have in effect a 4000 x 4000 ft. (NAR x 2 = 8000 ALT) site, although much bigger for recovery.

With a 5000 ft. waiver at your site and flying a HPR motor, you most likely do not have the "room" to fly that motor to 7000 ft. If it wasn't a HPR motor and fell under a class 1 rocket classification, sky's the limit, or RSO!!

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It may be otherwise restricted. Our site is roughly 4,000' x 3,500', though the pads are not exactly centered in that rectangle. I know this year the club applied for a 6,000' waiver but had it renewed again at 5,000'. I don't think they would have asked for 6k if the physical launch site could not support it, so maybe air traffic has more determined our waiver. Do you know where the FAA rule for 1/4 distance to altitude is found?

I'm still unclear on exactly what the NAR's definition of a minimum site dimension. Is it open fields, the actual property, etc? Is it measured from the pad area as in a radius of a circle, or on the side of a rough rectangle encompassing the whole property?

Handeman said:

I guess I don't understand your reasoning here. What does flying an HPR motor have to do with it. The rocket is a class 1 rocket even with the HPR motor and has no FAA restrictions on it.

I think the real question is, if he launched the rocket from that exact same site, but on his own instead of at a sanctioned launch, would he be legal? If that answer is yes, then it is really up to the RSO if he will allow the flight at his sanctioned launch. That is totally an RSO question and "right" or "wrong" doesn't matter, the RSO is god at the sanctioned launch, if he says no, it's NO.

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Exactly!

Handeman said:

I guess I don't understand your reasoning here. What does flying an HPR motor have to do with it. The rocket is a class 1 rocket even with the HPR motor and has no FAA restrictions on it.

I think the real question is, if he launched the rocket from that exact same site, but on his own instead of at a sanctioned launch, would he be legal? If that answer is yes, then it is really up to the RSO if he will allow the flight at his sanctioned launch. That is totally an RSO question and "right" or "wrong" doesn't matter, the RSO is god at the sanctioned launch, if he says no, it's NO.

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You can fly an H motor under 125 grams in a rocket that meets class 1 restrictions without a waiver, but you can't fly any H motor without following NAR/TRA HPR safety codes.

RocketHunter said:

It may be otherwise restricted. Our site is roughly 4,000' x 3,500', though the pads are not exactly centered in that rectangle. I know this year the club applied for a 6,000' waiver but had it renewed again at 5,000'. I don't think they would have asked for 6k if the physical launch site could not support it, so maybe air traffic has more determined our waiver. Do you know where the FAA rule for 1/4 distance to altitude is found?

I'm still unclear on exactly what the NAR's definition of a minimum site dimension. Is it open fields, the actual property, etc? Is it measured from the pad area as in a radius of a circle, or on the side of a rough rectangle encompassing the whole property?

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https://www.nar.org/high-power-rock...a-launch-authorization/filing-for-faa-waiver/ Class 2 Rockets no.7 ALT - distance.

Boundaries can be an occupied home, roads with traffic over 10 vehicles per hour, adjacent property the land owner does not permit you on, or maybe club imposed large woods, it is the space you have CLEAR between all the mentioned.

HPR safety code: Launch Site. I will launch my rocket outdoors, in an open area where trees, power lines, occupied buildings, and persons not involved in the launch do not present a hazard, and that is at least as large on its smallest dimension as one-half of the maximum altitude to which rockets are allowed to be flown at that site or 1500 feet, whichever is greater, or 1000 feet for rockets with a combined total impulse of less than 160 N-sec, a total liftoff weight of less than 1500 grams, and a maximum expected altitude of less than 610 meters (2000 feet).

I took a look at your clubs website/launch site and if you were planning on flying your rocket at their site (Godlewsky farms) you just don't have the dimensions required to fly that high. The location of your pads off to the left, half way up on Industrial drive is just "squeaking" in a 1500 ft. radius sweep to your field boundaries. I can see why your club or FAA has imposed a 5000ft. waiver. Alphano Rd. is just outside that 1500ft. radius, and that is one heck of a development just on the other side (East) of the road. I use Google Earth to check out other clubs launch sites just to see what they have, figured I'd check out yours. Seeing that a minimum launch site for HPR is 3000x3000 ft. a club should be able to get a 6,000 ft. waiver. Always interesting to see why one would have a lower than possible waiver.

rcktnut said:

I took a look at your clubs website/launch site and if you were planning on flying your rocket at their site (Godlewsky farms) you just don't have the dimensions required to fly that high. The location of your pads off to the left, half way up on Industrial drive is just "squeaking" in a 1500 ft. radius sweep to your field boundaries. I can see why your club or FAA has imposed a 5000ft. waiver. Alphano Rd. is just outside that 1500ft. radius, and that is one heck of a development just on the other side (East) of the road. I use Google Earth to check out other clubs launch sites just to see what they have, figured I'd check out yours. Seeing that a minimum launch site for HPR is 3000x3000 ft. a club should be able to get a 6,000 ft. waiver. Always interesting to see why one would have a lower than possible waiver.

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Thank you for doing that! So it seems that a 7k flight is 100% out of the question. With the 1,500' radius, would a 5,100 ft flight on a G motor be allowable? Or rather, would pushing very close to the 5,000' waiver with a Class 1 rocket be reasonable? For HPR I limit myself to 4,500' or less (on a rocket that has flown before to verify the sims) to guarantee I don't break the waiver - with a Class 1 rocket could you be a bit less cautious and fly where the sims say right around 5,000'?

RocketHunter said:

Thank you for doing that! So it seems that a 7k flight is 100% out of the question. With the 1,500' radius, would a 5,100 ft flight on a G motor be allowable? Or rather, would pushing very close to the 5,000' waiver with a Class 1 rocket be reasonable? For HPR I limit myself to 4,500' or less (on a rocket that has flown before to verify the sims) to guarantee I don't break the waiver - with a Class 1 rocket could you be a bit less cautious and fly where the sims say right around 5,000'?

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I think your only option is coming to LDRS

conman13 said:

I think your only option is coming to LDRS

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Oh what a shame....



Nate

RocketHunter said:

Thank you for doing that! So it seems that a 7k flight is 100% out of the question. With the 1,500' radius, would a 5,100 ft flight on a G motor be allowable? Or rather, would pushing very close to the 5,000' waiver with a Class 1 rocket be reasonable? For HPR I limit myself to 4,500' or less (on a rocket that has flown before to verify the sims) to guarantee I don't break the waiver - with a Class 1 rocket could you be a bit less cautious and fly where the sims say right around 5,000'?

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Those are questions best to let your club/RSO answer. Don't be afraid to ask, they are very good questions, should make for a very good discussion amongst club members, nothing wrong with a refresher on those types of subjects pertaining to your site.

When you take low, mid, and high power, combine that with the several agencies regulating our hobby, add 3 different classes mix them up a bit, somethings bound to come out a bit confusing. Well class 2&3 came out pretty well defined. Class 1 on the other hand came out a bit discombobulated. There was quite a bit of confusion when this change first occurred and there is still some today. The best and only way to overcome this is to read over the FAA regs the safety codes as many times as needed to fully understand them.

A few notes on class 1 rockets: You can fly a MPR G in a 1000x1000ft. site to sky's the limit. You can fly a HPR G at that same site to 2000ft., HPR safety code in effect as far as alt. to site dimensions. As soon as you put a HPR H into that rocket your field size has to be 3000x3000ft. minimum. The FAA at this time doesn't care how high it goes, don't need a waiver, but are restricted to 6000ft. alt. because of HPR safety code. That is one heck of a site increase between a G and 125 gram or less H. It would not be so bad if you could fly that H with out restriction even in minimum HPR site dimensions. I mean come on it is class 1. Better yet it would be nice to fly it in a field like maybe 2000x 2000ft., and really nice to be at 1500x1500ft.. Finding a landowner with enough land East of the Mississippi anyway, for the even the minimum site dimensions isn't easy. Then you have to convince them to let you fly. Been there done that! And if you have a site as big as the minimum required, might as well have a waiver in place to fly the rest of the goodies.

It is what it is maybe someday it will change for the better. May be someday class 1 will be in a class of its own, for now it is not.