Fly-away rail guides: 54mm 3D-printed available now

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I have been fortunate to be around Rockdoc and have had several flights (nothing I, just F,G,H) and love these. Can't wait for the 54mm. Although I suppose I may need to build some 29mm rockets now.
 
I just found this thread and don't have the time (or inclination, sorry) to read the whole 180 posts, so I apologize if any of this is redundant.

  1. Awesome job. Adapting Tim's fly-away guides to high power is something I imagine lots of us thought about, but making it happen, and making a producable product out of it is something else again. Hats off to you, sir.
  2. 3D printing is good for prototypes and small production runs, but I'd suggest you look into outsourcing to an injection molding or other mass production shop as the business - uhh - takes off.
  3. Make them in more sizes, pretty pretty please. :smile:
  4. Make them in custom sizes (3D printed) please. (I'm designing and plan to build a 40% upscale Big Birtha around this heavy wall paper tube I've got with a 2.25" OD.)
  5. I'm pretty sure you could make a quick few hundred bucks by writing up the development process for Apogee's newsletter. Write the article with emphasis on the development process primarily; the product is the result of the process, not the focus of the article (not that you don't get to tout the product a bit too.) Something like the article in this issue. Use a little background - regular rail buttons, Tim's original fly-away article - and in my humble and totally unofficial, unauthorized opinion it's a can't miss.

I want a set in 38mm and I want a set in 4 inch for my LOC EZI-65 and I want a set in 2.25 inch for Large Laura and I want a 3 inch set for something elsel I'll build one day and I want some low pwer sets for BT-50 and BT-60 and... You have awakend the yellow eyed monster of averice.

But seriously, great job.
 
wfcook said:
Yeah, I've thought of that too. It shouldn't be significantly worse than normal rail buttons I should think - I've seen quite a bit of wear on those, too. Possibly printing in ABS would help although that introduces other problems. But I think the reality is that anything that bears on the rail slot will eventually wear out.
Click to expand...

That where the guides you sent me come into play... I really think that I like them more then the original ones as they seem to slide off the rail smoother and are easily replaced if they get worn down.
 
With the rail button guides once the first button leaves the rail do the remaining two buttons try to twist the rocket? Might this work better with 4 buttons?
 
Ravenex said:
With the rail button guides once the first button leaves the rail do the remaining two buttons try to twist the rocket? Might this work better with 4 buttons?
Click to expand...

I think I see what you're getting at there, but the way they work it really isn't a problem. The spring forces act to open the guides and don't really exert pressure on the rocket. Also, in the closed position the forces of the spring are very low (which is how I achieve low rail friction), and I think that in any case you'd have to be moving glacially slow for it to have any noticeable effect.
 
It's not an issue of strength. With three buttons once the first button leave the rail the reading two buttons want to separate by spinning the rocket. I was wondering if that could cause a problem.
 
jqavins said:
I just found this thread and don't have the time (or inclination, sorry) to read the whole 180 posts, so I apologize if any of this is redundant.

  1. Awesome job. Adapting Tim's fly-away guides to high power is something I imagine lots of us thought about, but making it happen, and making a producable product out of it is something else again. Hats off to you, sir.
  2. 3D printing is good for prototypes and small production runs, but I'd suggest you look into outsourcing to an injection molding or other mass production shop as the business - uhh - takes off.
  3. Make them in more sizes, pretty pretty please. :smile:
  4. Make them in custom sizes (3D printed) please. (I'm designing and plan to build a 40% upscale Big Birtha around this heavy wall paper tube I've got with a 2.25" OD.)
  5. I'm pretty sure you could make a quick few hundred bucks by writing up the development process for Apogee's newsletter. Write the article with emphasis on the development process primarily; the product is the result of the process, not the focus of the article (not that you don't get to tout the product a bit too.) Something like the article in this issue. Use a little background - regular rail buttons, Tim's original fly-away article - and in my humble and totally unofficial, unauthorized opinion it's a can't miss.

I want a set in 38mm and I want a set in 4 inch for my LOC EZI-65 and I want a set in 2.25 inch for Large Laura and I want a 3 inch set for something elsel I'll build one day and I want some low pwer sets for BT-50 and BT-60 and... You have awakend the yellow eyed monster of averice.

But seriously, great job.
Click to expand...

  • Thank you. I am definitely not the first to think of fly-away guides by a long shot, but I have come up with a few little tricks and features that I believe set these apart from previous examples of the art.
  • I am looking at various methods for future production and other improvements. The cost of injection-mold tooling is prohibitive, but there are other methods which I am investigating. It's probably a fairly distant-future thing at best.
  • I am working on it. 29mm guides will be available very, very soon. I am not sure if I will go smaller than that - things get a bit crowded and the returns diminish. I am working on 54mm guides
  • Custom sizes is hard only because it requires a fairly large investment in time. And then I inevitably have to do it a few times before I get the size just right after accounting for material shrinkage, etc
  • I have written for Peak of Flight before (#363) and it is a good experience. I may try to submit something in the future, thanks for the suggestion!
 
Ravenex said:
It's not an issue of strength. With three buttons once the first button leave the rail the reading two buttons want to separate by spinning the rocket. I was wondering if that could cause a problem.
Click to expand...

I think if you have a set in your hands you'd see that it's not really the case because the forces open the guides without really pushing on the rocket. It certainly hasn't been a problem across a broad range of motor sizes. Also, I have run the guides off a rail by hand about a billion times at various speeds and never observed the effect you're thinking of.
 
Ravenex said:
It's not an issue of strength. With three buttons once the first button leave the rail the reading two buttons want to separate by spinning the rocket. I was wondering if that could cause a problem.
Click to expand...

It's also worth noting that the dual hinge prevents any torque like this from being applied.
 
grouch said:
I still think these are going to be a game changer for the guys that fly minimum diameter but don't want a tower. That's 100% of the reason I have not built a 38mm min-dia is the need to build/borrow/steal a tower. Very well done!
Click to expand...

Yah, I know what you mean Jarrett. It's a PIA to drive the 2 miles to my place to get my tower :>
 
jqavins said:
I just found this thread and don't have the time (or inclination, sorry) to read the whole 180 posts, so I apologize if any of this is redundant.

  1. Awesome job. Adapting Tim's fly-away guides to high power is something I imagine lots of us thought about, but making it happen, and making a producable product out of it is something else again. Hats off to you, sir.
  2. 3D printing is good for prototypes and small production runs, but I'd suggest you look into outsourcing to an injection molding or other mass production shop as the business - uhh - takes off.
  3. Make them in more sizes, pretty pretty please. :smile:
  4. Make them in custom sizes (3D printed) please. (I'm designing and plan to build a 40% upscale Big Birtha around this heavy wall paper tube I've got with a 2.25" OD.)
  5. I'm pretty sure you could make a quick few hundred bucks by writing up the development process for Apogee's newsletter. Write the article with emphasis on the development process primarily; the product is the result of the process, not the focus of the article (not that you don't get to tout the product a bit too.) Something like the article in this issue. Use a little background - regular rail buttons, Tim's original fly-away article - and in my humble and totally unofficial, unauthorized opinion it's a can't miss.

I want a set in 38mm and I want a set in 4 inch for my LOC EZI-65 and I want a set in 2.25 inch for Large Laura and I want a 3 inch set for something elsel I'll build one day and I want some low pwer sets for BT-50 and BT-60 and... You have awakend the yellow eyed monster of averice.

But seriously, great job.
Click to expand...

Too late...

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter387.pdf
 
rbelknap said:
Check out the latest Peak of Flight (#387) The featured article references your 3d printed rail guides (and this thread.) https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter387.pdf
Click to expand...

Wow, that took me by surprise this morning!

It is a very nicely written article, and I think he's done some very cool things on the low-power end with his wooden guides, which are nice and simple and should be very light. It's funny how we both iterated to many of the same solutions (two great minds with BUT a single thought, haha).

Thanks to Tim for the inspiration, for the kind words, and for the links!

Incidentally, the link to the guides with the rail buttons is here.
 
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grouch said:
Not only that, your tower is built for 3 finned rockets.
Click to expand...

See, with fly-away guides you don't need to store multiple towers :)

I'd be very curious to see how much difference it made if one of you guys was able to test the same rocket, same motor, from a tower vs. from a (clean) rail with fly-aways. And I suspect the results would be different with fast (Vmax, Warp9) motors than it would be with slow ones (Mellow).
 
Last edited:
wfcook said:
Wow, that took me by surprise this morning!

It is a very nicely written article, and I think he's done some very cool things on the low-power end with his wooden guides, which are nice and simple and should be very light. It's funny how we both iterated to many of the same solutions (two great minds with BUT a single thought, haha).
Click to expand...
I like the wooden low power version, but I think the articicle, despite its praise for your work, is in slightly bad form. Tim didn't have to wait for you to write it, but he should at least have talked to you while he was writing. Oh well, I guess one can't demand journalistic ethics in a free newsletter. (That may have come across as sarcastic, but it wasn't.)
 
jqavins said:
I like the wooden low power version, but I think the articicle, despite its praise for your work, is in slightly bad form. Tim didn't have to wait for you to write it, but he should at least have talked to you while he was writing. Oh well, I guess one can't demand journalistic ethics in a free newsletter. (That may have come across as sarcastic, but it wasn't.)
Click to expand...

I am quite OK with it, and have no quibbles. It was very classy of him to provide a link to a competing vendor who sells the guides, which is something not many people would have done. And really, the article is more about his developments than mine, although we happen to have reached many of the same conclusions independently. I suspect he found out about what I've been working on a couple days prior to his publishing deadline when he already had things in the pipeline, and probably rewrote a lot of what he had to acknowledge my work, which he also did not have to do. All in all, I feel like my response to Tim should be more along the lines of "Thank You."
 
Ravenex said:
It's not an issue of strength. With three buttons once the first button leave the rail the reading two buttons want to separate by spinning the rocket. I was wondering if that could cause a problem.
Click to expand...

I can see what you mean, but having a set in my hand, like Bill said, helps. I don't think that will be an issue, but I could test the idea this Sunday when we're **supposed** to have a launch. A low speed flight- kind of a worst case scenario for this failure mode. Formula 38 + F22J?

Nate
 
nute said:
I can see what you mean, but having a set in my hand, like Bill said, helps. I don't think that will be an issue, but I could test the idea this Sunday when we're **supposed** to have a launch. A low speed flight- kind of a worst case scenario for this failure mode. Formula 38 + F22J?

Nate
Click to expand...

Go for it. I have no doubts it will be just fine.
 
Looking at AMW site to purchase a couple of them. Do you have an exact size of airframe diameter they will fit. The reason I ask is we have a variety of 38s in the fleet. The new "roller" style seem to allow a little more leeway on airfrmae size, is this true?
 
accpool said:
Looking at AMW site to purchase a couple of them. Do you have an exact size of airframe diameter they will fit. The reason I ask is we have a variety of 38s in the fleet. The new "roller" style seem to allow a little more leeway on airfrmae size, is this true?
Click to expand...

There are sizes for thin wall FG (which also works on LOC tubes) and standard wall FG. I emailed AMW to see if they have both of them up on the site yet. You can also stick one half of each size together for in-between sizes (I think this would work on BlueTube). Some people do prefer to shim the standard-sized guides down for thin-wall FG by wrapping a rubber band lengthwise around each side of the shell.
 
I got a pair of the thin walled button units for a 38mm LOC cardboard tubed project and they are a bit tight and the buttons don't quite line up leading to a bit of binding on the rail. I pulled out my 1010 rail to check before coming to work tonight. This is before paint and finish. I believe I can try sanding for fit.

Hmmmmm, Thinking about it now, I'll check it with a 1515 rail and see if that will work acceptably. I was rushed and didn't read the instructions so pardon me if that pearl of wisdom is in there.:bangpan: The 1010 rail there was too much binding as the middle button wouldn't line up as the tube diameter is just a "hair" large. I understand trying to keep tolerance has got to be a bear and some tubing runs might be a bit off. The tubes I have are at least 7 years old. I have a 38mm glass tube kit coming so will check that too. I believe it is thin walled. Kurt
 
ksaves2 said:
I got a pair of the thin walled button units for a 38mm LOC cardboard tubed project and they are a bit tight and the buttons don't quite line up leading to a bit of binding on the rail. I pulled out my 1010 rail to check before coming to work tonight. This is before paint and finish. I believe I can try sanding for fit.

Hmmmmm, Thinking about it now, I'll check it with a 1515 rail and see if that will work acceptably. I was rushed and didn't read the instructions so pardon me if that pearl of wisdom is in there.:bangpan: The 1010 rail there was too much binding as the middle button wouldn't line up as the tube diameter is just a "hair" large. I understand trying to keep tolerance has got to be a bear and some tubing runs might be a bit off. The tubes I have are at least 7 years old. I have a 38mm glass tube kit coming so will check that too. I believe it is thin walled. Kurt
Click to expand...

Well, crap. Please do let me know. If there is an issue I'll fix it. The darned tubes are not as consistent as I would like, but it's something I have to work with.
 
wfcook said:
Well, crap. Please do let me know. If there is an issue I'll fix it. The darned tubes are not as consistent as I would like, but it's something I have to work with.
Click to expand...

Not your fault at all. I'll PM and try to send a picture. It has to be a bear to try and keep tolerances. Don't fret it. Maybe I have to exchange with AMW for something tor "thick-walled" tubes that has a little more circumference? I did try a 1515 rail and that bound too. Kurt
 
I think you need a std-wall set as the dual hinge design is a little less forgiving there. We'll take care of it, I'll PM you.
 
jqavins said:
I just found this thread and don't have the time (or inclination, sorry) to read the whole 180 posts, so I apologize if any of this is redundant.

  1. Awesome job. Adapting Tim's fly-away guides to high power is something I imagine lots of us thought about, but making it happen, and making a producable product out of it is something else again. Hats off to you, sir.
  2. 3D printing is good for prototypes and small production runs, but I'd suggest you look into outsourcing to an injection molding or other mass production shop as the business - uhh - takes off.
  3. Make them in more sizes, pretty pretty please. :smile:
  4. Make them in custom sizes (3D printed) please. (I'm designing and plan to build a 40% upscale Big Birtha around this heavy wall paper tube I've got with a 2.25" OD.)
  5. I'm pretty sure you could make a quick few hundred bucks by writing up the development process for Apogee's newsletter. Write the article with emphasis on the development process primarily; the product is the result of the process, not the focus of the article (not that you don't get to tout the product a bit too.) Something like the article in this issue. Use a little background - regular rail buttons, Tim's original fly-away article - and in my humble and totally unofficial, unauthorized opinion it's a can't miss.

I want a set in 38mm and I want a set in 4 inch for my LOC EZI-65 and I want a set in 2.25 inch for Large Laura and I want a 3 inch set for something elsel I'll build one day and I want some low pwer sets for BT-50 and BT-60 and... You have awakend the yellow eyed monster of averice.

But seriously, great job.
Click to expand...

If you are in to the competition thing, then this endeavor can also be a winning R&D project for NARAM. The judges seem to like projects that produce a tangible product in the end.
 

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