Highest flying two stage G rocket possible

Has anyone made a minimum dia 2 stage G rocket? If so what was the approximate max altitude? I am thinking of making one using a 29mm BT and a PerfectFlite timer for staging. I am wondering if 7,000+ feet is possible using G power!
I have already broken 1 mile and I think mach 1 so I need a new challenge.
thanks
jer

Try simming an ellis Mountain G37 to an Apogee E6. It goes over 15k on my computer. The G37s are probably hard to find nowadays, though, sadly. If you don't have a beeline yet, get one.

This raises an interesting question. Does a 2-stager with G motors count as a "complex" rocket of total impulse in the H range, as defined by NAR's High Power Safety Code? If so, would such a rocket require a minimum Level 1 certification?

Depends on the total impulse and total propellant weight.

kj

TWRackers said:

This raises an interesting question. Does a 2-stager with G motors count as a "complex" rocket of total impulse in the H range, as defined by NAR's High Power Safety Code? If so, would such a rocket require a minimum Level 1 certification?

Click to expand...

You can use https://home.flash.net/~samily/stuff/HPR_metric8.pdf to find out...

One can fly up to 320 n-sec total impulse in a cluster/multi stage without high power certification as long as no individual motor is over a "G".
One does have to stay under the weight limit that deliniates MR from HPR though.

As long as the rocket weighs less than 3.3lbs and and uses no more than 4 oz. of propellent total (65.2 grams max per motor) and uses motors with no more than 80newtons ave. thrust your fine!! Now, enough of the legal talk who has real altitude data? I know someone out there has tried this. Can 7000+ feet be reached in a min. dia. (1.14 inches) rocket on perfectly legal, NON-CERT, NON-HPR motors? I tend to think it can seeing on how I did a mile on 1 G80 but I would like confirmation from someone who actually built and flown the two stage version.
cheers
Jer

What's fun about the G37 - E6 is that the total impulse is still just under 160 Ns, so it could set a record under the G total staged impluse category.

Interesting idea! It sounds like it would be a fun rocket. The Apogee long burn F motor would also seem to be a great choice. I just have an issue with the RockSim data. I don't think it's accurate at 15,000ft!!

Can 7000+ feet be reached in a min. dia. (1.14 inches) rocket on perfectly legal, NON-CERT, NON-HPR motors?

Click to expand...

Absolutely. I have flown an F10 to 8400 feet in a single stage, but the nosecone separated and the back end wasn't recovered so it wasn't a record-qualifying flight. I'll be trying again sometime this spring.

What rocket did you use for that flight (dia. and wt.)?
jer

Scratch-built from Apogee rocketry tubes, very short with relatively large FG-covered balsa fins. Parrot altimeter and Beeline transmitter. The non-motor weight was right around 40 grams.

Here's a quick design I did up in RockSim. It probably isn't very practical, nor would it perform quite as well in the real world, but if you found a way to build it, RockSim says it would go just barely over 18,000 feet on a G80 (the new kind)->F10->E6 setup. Timers are needed in each stage (10 second delay from between 1st stage burnout and 2nd stage ignition, 6 second delay between 2nd and 3rd, and then a ~11 second delay for parachute deployment on the upper stage). But it does show that you can greatly increase your altitude potential with staging, ignition delays, and long burn motors.

View attachment hialt.JPG

View attachment Cert1Altitude.rkt

It's hard to beleive the altitudes here! Where I live in upstate NY getting anything back that goes over a mile and downloading alt. data is very unlikely. However, I want to do it as "proof" of concept. Who needs high powere, waivers, and LEUP's (and all the big brother crap) if you can reach way higher altitues for a relatively few dollars. Don't get me wrong I love lots of flame, smoke, noise and a shock wave to the chest as much as the next guy but when pure numbers come down there seems to be no comparison. Has anyone tried some of these wild RockSim designs and gotten their altimetes back with the 15K+ data?

Invest in a transmitter:
You'll need amateur radio licencse, receiver, transmitter, and antena.

A lot of rocket folks swear by:
https://bigredbee.com/BeeLine.htm
The transmitter listed there costs $60 and works very well. Even if you still lose the rocket (and thusly the transmitter), you are only out an extra $60. Some other transmitters cost considerably more.

For a small minimum diameter 29mm-24mm staged rocket, I would probably make the boosters disposable, and use single use motors in the boosters. That way you only need to worry about tracking the sustainer.

125 grams of propellant or 4.4 ounces total, NOT 4 ounces total.

AGAIN: See the information graphic:

https://home.flash.net/~samily/stuff/HPR_metric8.pdf

Jeremy Lundy said:

As long as the rocket weighs less than 3.3lbs and and uses no more than 4 oz. of propellent total (65.2 grams max per motor) and uses motors with no more than 80newtons ave. thrust your fine!! Now, enough of the legal talk who has real altitude data? I know someone out there has tried this. Can 7000+ feet be reached in a min. dia. (1.14 inches) rocket on perfectly legal, NON-CERT, NON-HPR motors? I tend to think it can seeing on how I did a mile on 1 G80 but I would like confirmation from someone who actually built and flown the two stage version.
cheers
Jer

Click to expand...

Even better! However on your website above it states cert 1, 2 etc. Please remember that these are self implied rules by the NAR and Triploi organizations and not federal or state law in terms of buying and using HP motors. In fact with a LEUP you can buy and use any of these motors legally as long as you comply with FAA regulation when flying them. The problem is finding a dealer in state who will sell them to you. Part of the problem here is that people don't know what's legal or not and often don't even know their own rights. You only need NAR or Tripoli certification to fly HP on thier fields!
Now, back to the real question who broke 7,000+ ft with a two stage MID-POWER rocket?

Jeremy Lundy said:

Even better! However on your website above it states cert 1, 2 etc. Please remember that these are self implied rules by the NAR and Triploi organizations and not federal or state law in terms of buying and using HP motors. In fact with a LEUP you can buy and use any of these motors legally as long as you comply with FAA regulation when flying them. The problem is finding a dealer in state who will sell them to you. Part of the problem here is that people don't know what's legal or not and often don't even know their own rights. You only need NAR or Tripoli certification to fly HP on thier fields!
Now, back to the real question who broke 7,000+ ft with a two stage MID-POWER rocket?

Click to expand...

In many states the NFPA codes *are* law. According to https://www.iccsafe.org/government/adoption.html 41 states and DC have adopted the International Fire Code. And the IFC references the NFPA codes for rocketry.

I see from your login information that you live in New York state. New York uses the 2003 IFC, so I expect you are bound by the NFPA codes.

The NFPA codes allow you to purchase a HPR motor for certification but after that individuals have to be certified by one of the national organizations. For us, that means, CAR, NAR, and Tripoli.

I agree with you that the laws are complex. Sadly, that is why we have to have full time specialists (i.e. lawyers) to interpret them. Thankfully I'm not a lawyer...

Jeremy Lundy said:

Even better! However on your website above it states cert 1, 2 etc. Please remember that these are self implied rules by the NAR and Triploi organizations and not federal or state law in terms of buying and using HP motors. In fact with a LEUP you can buy and use any of these motors legally as long as you comply with FAA regulation when flying them. The problem is finding a dealer in state who will sell them to you. Part of the problem here is that people don't know what's legal or not and often don't even know their own rights. You only need NAR or Tripoli certification to fly HP on thier fields!
Now, back to the real question who broke 7,000+ ft with a two stage MID-POWER rocket?

Click to expand...

It is not my website. I simply point to it very often.

https://www.ourhideout.com/SOUNDS/PPSS30.WAV

Ok I did not want to get into this but since it seems everyone likes to gravitate to this type of conversation I'd like to add a few other points and opinions. Before I do let me say that I was a member of the NAR years ago and probably will be again before to long. I am also looking in to a local Tripoli club. Both are full of wonderful and very helpful folks just like on this site. However, I still believe things went terribly wrong somewhere along the line with regulations and such, and I don't know why. For instance, I don't think Robbert Goddard was a NAR or Tripoli member or was certified in anything except pure experimentation. Yet without him we would probably not be having this conversation.
Now that I have said my piece I would like to ask all you L1,2 and 3 folks a question. Has anyone actually launched a two stage mid power rocket that broke 7000 feet? If so could you provide some design details. I would love to do some simulations on RockSim but I spent all my money on motors and rockets and my free 30 day trial version ran out. I hope some of you are in a similar experimental situation.
thanks
jer