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DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE!

These projects are SOOOOOO cool! I wish I were going to BALLS so badly, just to see those two take skyward!

What are the specs on the motors for... well, all of them!

How many Jarts do toy have:confused:?

Ben, I don't have any Jarts; though each of my boys do. I built twin Jarts (with 38mm mounts) and painted them the same, only one is red/yellow, the other is black/yellow; the boys each claimed one, so I no longer have any:wink:. The red/yellow drag raced your Gouda Wooshka flight at Fire on the Farm! I'll post a photo of the pair when I get a chance. My dad Tom has one, as does buddy Marc...so we'll have four along with us on the Westward Ho.

Fly out, we'll see you out there!:D

Dennis; thanks! See you out on the playa!!!!

-Eric-
 
So, about what does 1/3 of the simulated altitude work out to :-?

Jim

Hi Jim,

I don't believe the number yet; I need to dig a bit deeper with the investigative measures, but the number currently floats around 90k.

A heartfelt thank you for helping me understand how to trick RASAero into two stage simulation! THANK YOU!

-Eric-
 
If you don't mind, how?

Initially, I was doing this in a way that clearly was not working. Adrian gave me an alternative, and I'm happy with how it's working. In contrast with the first method, the second seems more compatible with the RasAero programming (for reasons I don't know).

In a nutshell, you first simulate the flight of the two-stage "stack" to determine the altitude and velocity at the point where you want the sustainer to light. Then, you modify the sustainer motor file to include some additional impulse early in the sustainer motor burn. For example, you might add perhaps 20% more Ns's to the motor, plus the proportionally increased fuel weight, over the first 0.1 seconds of the burn. Then, you launch the sustainer only at the predetermined staging altitude. The additional impulse gets the sustainer moving to the predetermined staging velocity. Then, the remainer of the simulation is the "regular" sustainer motor, modeled as a single-stage flight, but starting at the staging velocity and altitude. The overall altitude is the sum of the simulated sustainer plus the launch altitude (AGL). You have to do a little trial and error to determine the correct added impulse to get to the staging velocity, but otherwise, it's pretty simple.

This won't be necessary once Chuck gets the two-stage version completed. Until then, this approach seems to work. I had a recent flight to 74K that modeled to within 5% with this approach. I've been waiting years for this tool.

Jim
 
Hi Jim,

I don't believe the number yet; I need to dig a bit deeper with the investigative measures, but the number currently floats around 90k.

A heartfelt thank you for helping me understand how to trick RASAero into two stage simulation! THANK YOU!

-Eric-

So, I guess if it goes to 2/3 of the simed altitude, you'll be head-over-heals. And at 3/3, you'll be totally out of control!

My-O-my. I think I may have to watch that flight.

Jim
 
Eric,


Would you mind describing your methods of retaining the forward bulkhead and nozzle on ISPy's motor?

I have some thick wall 29mm carbon tubing that I would love to utilize as a motor case/MD airframe.

Thanks! These projects look awesome!
 
Eric,


Would you mind describing your methods of retaining the forward bulkhead and nozzle on ISPy's motor?

I have some thick wall 29mm carbon tubing that I would love to utilize as a motor case/MD airframe.

Thanks! These projects look awesome!

Dan, certainly! The really short answer is that I drill two or three evenly spaced holes around the circumference of the casing, cover the OD with a wrap of tape, and when the epoxy "closure" is poured in place, it forms epoxy rivets that lock into the casing. I do this to all my single motors!

The longer answer is that I rough up the ends of the case with a dremel sanding drum and drill the previously mentioned rivot holes. I fit the nozzle and delay grain to the casing somehow; sometimes it's o-rings, sometimes a centering ring, sometimes nothing (ie: 1.00" OD RCS nozzles in 1.00" ID Garolite tubing). Whatever is used, I seal the nozzle and/or delay to the casing wall with a very small fillet of quick setting epoxy; the intent here is simply to seal the edges so no epoxy gets where its not supposed to. I then use a slow cure epoxy poured into the cavity to create the closure.

For ISPy, the aft closure is a bit different. The aft end was sealed as described above, but then I turned down the aft end to create a boat tail. In doing so, much of the epoxy filled casing that retains the nozzle was ground away. To supplement the retention, three #6 set screws were drilled, tapped, and sealed just aft of the nozzle's shoulder. Furthermore, the turned area was laminated with a few layers of E-glass that ties into the G-12 casing. Unless you're turning the aft end of the casing into a boat-tail after assembling the motor, no need for these additional steps!

Though I enjoy making single use motors; they are labor intensive. I thought single use composite motors were expensive until I began making my own!

-Eric-
 
In case anyone is still following, here's another weekly update:

Weekly Summary:
It’s been a very busy week, yet the visual indications of progress on rocket construction is minimal! In short, the bulk of efforts were devoted to fine tuning the simulations, Class 3 Submissions, and motor work.

Rockets in a hypothetical world:
As indicated above, much time was spent in the simulation world. Many hours were spent working with Rogers Aeroscience, RASP, Burnsim, “Research Notebook”, Black Rock “Airframe data page”, CAD, Adobe pdf, and Class 3 Word Submissions as they were populated and revised. Trying to integrate some accuracy into the simulation of the 2 stage project through the current version of RASAero has been an adventure; a great many thanks to Jim Jarvis for sharing his time, experience, and knowledge with me throughout the process! Nevertheless, the paperwork has been submitted and an initial conversation with Kent Newman, who is the head of the C3RC was promising. Without going into too much detail, the sustainer of the September Fate-Carbon Slipper project sims to a significant altitude. I won’t disclose the projected altitude because A) I don’t believe it myself B) those that know me understand that I value simulations to a some degree; but I’m a much bigger fan of practical experience, and C) flying to such altitudes is a tall task; I would be downright ignorant to believe success is a given and downright flattered if the project successfully made it to even half of the simulated altitude!

The consequence of producing an ambitious simulation is that a few steps will need to be taken to keep the rocket on track (within a few degrees of vertical). In short, the launch tower will be extended from 12’ to 16’, the fins airfoiled such that a spin is induced, and lastly, the delay between booster motor burnout and sustainer ignition reduced by a few seconds.

When I escaped the confines of a computer, I was able to do some work to September Fate and a decent amount of work to the motors for Balls and Hamster Dance.

Booster lamination
I’ll admit that September Fate has sat idle for some time… about 3 years since I last worked on it. When we planned on going to Balls 19, I layed up the airframe, tacked and filleted the fins, and completed tip to tip lamination on two of the three sides. It looked something like this:

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And this:

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The dull look is from the peel-ply. The smoothness and associated sheen shall return as the rocket gets closer to completion (though don't expect a Jarvis-like piece of artwork here!)

Let’s cover up the G-10 cores, shall we? Using few words and a couple of pictures, here we go:

No touching the carbon fiber with grubby, oil laden hands now! Cotton gloves keep the oils off the fibers; we'd much rather have the fibers absorb resin than oil. Fiber orientation is important; figure out what you're trying to accomplish, then orientate the fiber direction(s) to achieve your desired result.

251_zps1d6890d2.jpg


All layers are laminated, then carefully covered with peel ply. Epoxy is added to the top of the peel ply until most of the air bubbles are gone; we should see a uniform colored layer without little to no white spots (voids).

085_zps1ef8c0a1.jpg


Not saying it wouldn't be beneficial, but vacuum was not used here as the booster will not be traveling fast enough to warrant the extra effort.

Work remaining to be done to the booster fin can: trim the edges, sand airfoil into fins, cover the leading edges, bevel the leading and trailing edges, make it pretty.

Sconnie Motor Works

On the motor side of things, it was a good week for progress. We mixed the *final* batch of propellant for Balls and I completed much of the cutting, coring, facing of the grains. Liners were cut, single use motors assembled, and a pair of static test motors prepped.

Here's the pile o' propellant as I begin assembling motors. From Left to Right: 114-8 grain O4400, 98-7G N2488, 75moon M825, 75-5G M1060, 54-7G L900, 54-7G L900, 38-6G J220, 29-7G static and flight, 29-5G, 29-3G flight and static, 19-4G F38. All motors are my "Superballs" flavor.

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Static testing two 29mm motors at lunch today and making smoke grains tonight. To be continued….

-Eric-
 
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Eric,
Very cool projects. I look forward to seeing photo/video results.

I wanted to pass on some tracking info that I learned from the fine folks at Aeropac the first time we went out to the Black Rock.

The playa sand has something in it that messes with radio transmission. You want to focus on tracking while the rocket is in the air. Once the rocket hits the ground, you won’t get signal until you are close enough to see it.

I was told by the Aeropac experts to pop main at 2000 or even 3000 feet. This is especially true for the high altitude birds that will be coming down pretty fast if you’ve sized the drogue to stay in the cylinder. The high main will give you more time at a slower speed to get a good signal before it hits the ground.

If you are using rocket hunter type tracking, track it in the air the whole way down. This way you’ll at least have a direction. With no trees, bushes, grass or ANYTHING to block your view, you can see a rocket lying on the playa from hundreds of yards away.

If you are using a Big Red Bee or other 70cm GPS, then you can borrow our high gain antenna. I never had the chance to test it out, since my rocket did go as high as expected. But, it is the same antenna used by the AeroPac Carmack Prize team. They tracked their Big Red Bees all the way to 100,000+ feet with it. If you want to borrow it, email me (regular email is better than PM for me) to arrange.

Good luck!
 
Great projects, really fun to follow along. At XPRS I'm flying a minimum diameter two-stage nearly ideantical to yours, 98mm 6GXL to 76mm 6GXL moonburner (research motors). Sims are scary high, should be fun.
 
Great projects, really fun to follow along. At XPRS I'm flying a minimum diameter two-stage nearly ideantical to yours, 98mm 6GXL to 76mm 6GXL moonburner (research motors). Sims are scary high, should be fun.

Geez, guys, you must be driving Kent nuts!

When describing Balls, I often tell people that after you've been there a while, when they announce an M motor flight, you won't even look up. Man, this year, if I was to re-fly my two-stager (which isn't particularly likely), no one would even bother watching. Tough crowd. On the other hand, I'm aware of one flight, which if it happens, will make us all look like pikers. Whether I fly or not, I plan to be there, because there is no way I would miss this launch.

Funny (in the odd way) story about radios on the playa this year. I have an older gps that has a little trouble getting lock if you move the unit around. So, this year, I turned it on in Austin and kept it on each day while we drove. I'd turn it off at night, and then the next morning, it would get lock within a few minutes and we'd drive another leg. For 2000 miles and three National Parks, I kept that lock, and didn't turn off the unit until we were at our staging point. Then next morning, just before the flight, I turned it on, and no lock. For an hour, and with several power cycles, nothing. You gotta be kidding. I had a similar problem a couple of years ago. Something is going on out there.....

Jim
 
Geez, guys, you must be driving Kent nuts!

When describing Balls, I often tell people that after you've been there a while, when they announce an M motor flight, you won't even look up. Man, this year, if I was to re-fly my two-stager (which isn't particularly likely), no one would even bother watching. Tough crowd. On the other hand, I'm aware of one flight, which if it happens, will make us all look like pikers. Whether I fly or not, I plan to be there, because there is no way I would miss this launch.

Jim

Would that be USC's Traveler? Might it actually happen this year?
 
This thread is pushing me towards attending Balls 22 even though I cannot launch anything.

Your projects astound me, please keep posting more information and pictures.
 
If you are using rocket hunter type tracking, track it in the air the whole way down. This way you’ll at least have a direction.

This is good advice no matter where you fly. A number of times I have witnessed people with trackers fail to do this. Then the signal dropped to nothing upon landing and they were left waving the yagi in all directions with a deer in the headlights look about them.
 
Hey All (that includes Gus) thanks for following along and adding the comments; much appreciated.

Daveyfire: Thanks; I'll see you there:confused:? If so, I'll buy the first round of gin & tonics:wink:.

Thanks Judy; I've heard about that Black Rock is the Bermuda Triangle of rocket tracking. Though I'll have my trusty Com-Spec/RocketHunters on board, I will also be using the Entacore AIM Xtra 2.0 GPS tracking/telemetry units for both Balls projects. We'll see how they work!

James: Excellent; can't wait to see/hear the results of your flight!!!!:grin:

Blkkrow: C'mon out! Out of curiosity, why not fly something out there?

-Eric-
 
Eric,
You are on a mission man. Great job! And you made such headway in so little time. Hell, I've spent the last month just trying to figure out how to pack my trailer. Yet you have a two stager going, an aluminum rocket, a couple more , and making your own juice. My hats off to you and I cant wait to see them heading upward:eek:
Terry
 
Since there's a fair number of +100K guys tuned in here, how are you handling apogee deployment? I confess I've gone to timers with barometric deployment if <90K (which is what did the deployment at LDRS). Eric, with your projected altitude, I don't know what I'd try (particularly since I'm pretty sure you're going to do better than half the simulation!).

Jim
 
Eric,
You are on a mission man. Great job! And you made such headway in so little time. Hell, I've spent the last month just trying to figure out how to pack my trailer. Yet you have a two stager going, an aluminum rocket, a couple more , and making your own juice. My hats off to you and I cant wait to see them heading upward:eek:
Terry

Thanks Terry! Hey, do we get to see one or both of the carbon twins out there? Hope so; they're gorgeous!

Packing the trailer.....
 
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Since there's a fair number of +100K guys tuned in here, how are you handling apogee deployment? I confess I've gone to timers with barometric deployment if <90K (which is what did the deployment at LDRS). Eric, with your projected altitude, I don't know what I'd try (particularly since I'm pretty sure you're going to do better than half the simulation!).

Jim

Hi Jim,

Definitely interested in what others have to say! There are others out there that have much more experience in this arena, but here are my choices.

Rocket avionics to me are much like a restaurant's reputation: takes several positive experiences to gain a little faith in the product and only one negative experience to kill that faith. Though these projects *should* go higher than my past projects, I'm seeking to keep them as simple and familiar as possible. All motors, initiators, electronics, etc. have been tested on previous projects before employing them on these birds (one exception, but not my first experience with the (personally trusted) manufacturer).

I'll be using a combination of Ozark ARTS2's, Perfectflite MiniTimer 2's, and the AIM XTRA 2.0 for flight events.

For the 2 stager, the planned sequencing goes something like this:

-ARTS2 (unit A): staging separation charge after booster burnout. Also performs booster main event later in flight.
-ARTS2 (unit B): sustainer ignition
-MiniTimer2: redundant sustainer ignition
-ARTS2 (unit B): sustainer apogee deploy
-AIM XTRA: redundant sustainer apogee deploy
-AIM XTRA: low altitude main event deploy.
-Adept 22: redundant main event altimeter

For the single stager, one ARTS (unit C) and one AIM XTRA do the apogee and low altitude main events. I may add a Minitimer for redundancy to the Itch. I may add redundant events to the AIM XTRA on one or both projects (ie: apogee + 20 seconds, etc.).

-Eric-
 
Thanks Terry! Hey, do we get to see one or both of the carbon twins out there? Hope so; they're gorgeous!

Packing the trailer.....

The twins are retired for now. I had started to turn them into a three stager but bailed out half way through.
About 4 years ago I started working on a new project. A replica of the Nike Hercules. It was going to be more of a model rocket but after a couple discussions with my buddy Jim Jarvis it ended up a project that should be flown at Balls.
Jim was more of an inspiration to my project than he knows. And he has been so much help to me via e mail with technical issues/ lessons over the years.
Its lining up like its going to be a site to see at Balls this year.
Keep up the GREAT work Eric. Only about four weeks left until we take that cruise down I80.
I'm bringing my hard hat!!
Terry
 
The twins are retired for now.

Thank you, Terry. Speaking of inspiration, the only reason I even tried two, two-stagers at LDRS is because you flew the twins. I didn't think it was possible, but you did it (but don't expect me to follow your lead on the Nike Hercules - you are in a Class of One on that). Let's just do a bit of math here. There's Terry's flight, which would be worth the trip if it was the ONLY flight. Then there's Eric and James with very realistic chances at 200K. Being from Texas, I'm aware of at least one Q and one P motor flight, and then there's the 30 flights I don't know about. Oh, and there's Tony's 46" of insanity and this chick from San Antonio with a four-armed thing that's hard to describe. A site to see for sure.

Jim
 
Wow; another week gone by. Three work weeks left before departure to Balls:y::fly:! Sounding a bit like a broken record; a lot was accomplished this past week and work continues at a steady pace.

Motor matters
Last week’s pair of static tests went well; that little 29-7G really impressed me! The majority of the remaining motor work has been completed: smoke grains done, motors assembled, a few o-rings ordered and delivered from Mcmaster.

Tower talk
The original tower was just shy of 8’ long, and relied on burying the bottom in the ground for support of the base. For Balls, I need a longer tower with a stronger base. Since the playa is harder than the fertile farm land I’m accustomed to flying on, the vertical longitudinal (rails) will be bolted to a 4’x4’ plywood base which will be staked to the playa. The angle is adjusted and the top of the tower secured by braided steel cable guy wires anchored with stakes.

Two big tubes and a dense little box from McMaster showed up on Wednesday containing bits and pieces for the upgraded tower:

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Illinois Inspector
ChuckH stopped by to check on progress and to pick up a small supply of convolute phenolic liner/casting tube sets. We had a nice visit with him and Kari as they passed through town! Though I couldn’t sell them on Spotted Cow, I did manage to peddle a few bowls of ice cream.:D

C3RC
I received a resounding “Where’s the Rocksim?” from the Class 3 Committee. I completely understand the Committee’s need for said files; therefore I drew up both airframes in RockSim, loaded all motors into the program, and submitted them. Not a big deal for most people; though this is a significant event for me:cyclops:.

Carbon Slipper
Every time I fly this rocket, there is heat damage to the fin area. This last time was no exception as Manny here. Not a big deal; it’s expected and accepted every time she flies. That said, I tried a different layup technique for the most recent flight and it didn’t perform as well as I’d hoped, so there will be changes for this iteration. But first, we must sand away all the damaged resin infused carbon on this bird. After 2 hours of continuous sanding, I had the fin can back where I wanted it.

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After sanding off all the garbage and reaching a consistent airfoil profile, I moved back inside and prepared for lamination. Three staggered layers were cut with strategic fiber orientation

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The freshly sanded can was thoroughly cleaned with a tack cloth and alcohol.

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Random insert: fin airfoil:

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First layer in place; not yet saturated with resin:

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Second layer in place; not yet saturated:

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Third layer in place; not yet saturated:

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One batch of epoxy was mixed for the entire lamination. The entire assembly was bagged, vacuumed, and allowed to dry overnight in the warm garage.

To be continued..... Happy Friday!

-Eric-
 
Illinois Inspector
ChuckH stopped by to check on progress and to pick up a small supply of convolute phenolic liner/casting tube sets. We had a nice visit with him and Kari as they passed through town! Though I couldn’t sell them on Spotted Cow, I did manage to peddle a few bowls of ice cream.:D


A few bowls?? I only had one bowl! That and some St. Germain :)

I will say the projects are coming along nicely and they look every bit as good in person as they do in the pictures.
 
Carbon Slipper
Every time I fly this rocket, there is heat damage to the fin area....

007_zps68d1a813.jpg


One batch of epoxy was mixed for the entire lamination. The entire assembly was bagged, vacuumed, and allowed to dry overnight in the warm garage.

To be continued..... Happy Friday!

-Eric-

Nice pictures! Maybe I missed it, but what laminating resin are you using?
 
Looks great!

Soooo.. what are you going to do with those two big mailing tubes?

Don't do it Eric.....:surprised: He'll only use them too build something EVIL......Like probably a......
1. Two Stagger.:D
2. Something that resembles a Two Stagger..:D
3. Something that IS a Two Stagger...:D
4. A short rocket and, a really long rocket that can "Transform" into a Two Stagger.....:D

On second thought, just give him the tubes.....
Just like with Manny when he was soooooo.....much younger.

What would you have him doing? Playing with rockets or playing with himse.......Nevermind.

Still checking in Dawg....Lookin GOOD!:D

Psssst.....was at Lambeau yesterday.....got some real "Cheese Fritters" and, a Reuben at Curly's YUM YUM!

View attachment 143393

Anne said....."Stay away from me if you want to be a Pulse Wave Detonation Engine for the rest of the day.....":mad:
NOT ME......:rolleyes:
 
Don't do it Eric.....:surprised: He'll only use them too build something EVIL......Like probably a......
1. Two Stagger.:D
2. Something that resembles a Two Stagger..:D
3. Something that IS a Two Stagger...:D
4. A short rocket and, a really long rocket that can "Transform" into a Two Stagger.....:D
Nah, I'm sure Eric could do something far cooler with then than I could ( I was really asking what HE was (or is :dark:) going to do with them(are you allowed to do internal parenthesis?)) ... plus, I can't afford to fly a 6" 2 stager, and don't have the patience to make a nosecone. a good one that is :p.
 
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