Bare Necessities: N5800 C-Star Flying Case

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View attachment 140771

Every Pro98 6GXL nozzle I have seen post-burn has looked something like this; I always assumed it was crash damage, but our nozzle was ~1' inside the motor case-no way it could have been damaged in the crash. I wonder if the material is broken apart by heat and pressure during the burn, which would explain why the Pro98 motors are all severely underexpanded (already at the limit of the material). If it fractures apart 2.7s into the burn, I wonder if that has something to do with it?

View attachment 140777

Possibly more helpful picture.

Now we are talking! Look at that Nozzle!?

To determine if wind shear was a problem I checked the decent of the rocket. There was no noticeable GPS shift at any altitude. So I assume wind wasn't an issue.

Indeed rapid acceleration causing dislodged propellant would increase acceleration (not seen). After seeing the nozzle picture - I really do think this motor has got problems.

Are you still considering doing this again?
 
View attachment 140771

Every Pro98 6GXL nozzle I have seen post-burn has looked something like this; I always assumed it was crash damage, but our nozzle was ~1' inside the motor case-no way it could have been damaged in the crash. I wonder if the material is broken apart by heat and pressure during the burn, which would explain why the Pro98 motors are all severely underexpanded (already at the limit of the material). If it fractures apart 2.7s into the burn, I wonder if that has something to do with it?

View attachment 140777

Possibly more helpful picture.

Ours looks eroded outward where the nozzle is cracked off. EDIT: thus implying that the nozzle failed mid-burn, rather than from thermal shock after burnout.

I looked at the O3400 static test on YouTube in 1080p, and there's no failure of the nozzle (or else the tailcone would have been scrapped).

I wonder what happened to the tailcone that Gerald flew on his N5800, as well as the nozzle itself...
 
Ours looks eroded outward where the nozzle is cracked off. EDIT: thus implying that the nozzle failed mid-burn, rather than from thermal shock after burnout.

I looked at the O3400 static test on YouTube in 1080p, and there's no failure of the nozzle (or else the tailcone would have been scrapped).

I wonder what happened to the tailcone that Gerald flew on his N5800, as well as the nozzle itself...

Is there a link to that? I'd very much like to see the static fire test.
 
A phenolic-like material, made using something in between sintering and casting-based on the appearance of the final product.

I'd like to stress that we don't necessarily know that the motor was at fault for this.


In other news, with some of the data timing issues resolved, I think i can fairly conclusively say that the nosecone came off of the rocket at about 3.446 seconds into the flight. Both z-accels show negative acceleration before that point (inward acceleration in a spin or corkscrew), and at that point, they both show a return to essentially zero acceleration-the nosecone coming loose and continuing straight away from the booster, no longer accelerating inward. Shortly after (~0.014s) there is an equally sharp negative acceleration, which conceivably could be the shock cord going taught. This is accompanied by a violent drop in internal pressure, which is pretty unmistakably the nosecone coming off, exposing the baro sensors to atmosphere.

I am suspicious but cannot prove at this time that the shock cord did not break instantly. Notice how the baro sensors show elevated pressure up until t~3.9s? I think what happened is the nosecone came off, the cord went taught, and the booster's momentum continued to drag the nosecone along for the ride, facing downward (open end up) for another .3s, between 3.6 and 3.9 seconds on the axis. This would explain how the heavily filtered baro sensor on the raven showed the pressure stop dropping, and the faster-response Aim Xtra actually showing pressure increasing as the open face of the nosecone was hauled forward into the air. As the shock cord slipped around on the metal airframe, it wore, until the terrific load of the nosecone caused it to tear apart over the edge of the aluminum. Then, with the shock cord broken, we see the nosecone make a sudden, although noisy, return to a decceleration we would expect to see for the nosecone flying through the air by itself.

NoseconeRelease.jpg
 
As the shock cord slipped around on the metal airframe, it wore, until the terrific load of the nosecone caused it to tear apart over the edge of the aluminum. Then, with the shock cord broken, we see the nosecone make a sudden, although noisy, return to a decceleration we would expect to see for the nosecone flying through the air by itself.

Actually, in reviewing the wreckage, the shock cord surprisingly did not break on the edge of the airframe, but rather 2 or 3 inches out from it. I wonder why...
 
The subsonic and supersonic spin rates for BN are not out of line with data from other sounding rockets-look at Black Brant data, or even Arcas HV data. THey all show a similar spin effect, with slight twist subsonic, and a decaying spin in the other direction supersonic.
Perhaps for hobby rocket look-alikes, but all NASA unguided sounding rockets including the Black Brant and Super Arcas are intentionally spun as per range safety rules to reduce dispersion by angling the fins, and they do not change spin direction during flight. Indeed the Super Arcas launcher used a helical rail launcher to induce spin and reached 25 rps at the end of it's 40 second burn time. (Ref Pg F-136 Sounding Rocket Handbook 2001 ed.)
 
Fun fact: Based on the Raven, this copy of which has a reasonably accurate accelerometer, the "event" after which the rocket began to spiral occurred at Mach 3.7.

The Raven registers going faster than that after the event, but since the accelerometer was no longer pointed along the direction of motion the speed computed would be an overestimation.
 
Still frame of "the event":

BareNecessitiesKink.png


That kink was the first sign of anything going wrong. (this is a few frames after the event actually occurred, but the smoke trail shows the kink better)
 
If you look closely it turned clockwise. That is just truly amazing nice frame capture.
 
If you look closely it turned clockwise.

It's hard to tell what actually happened; is it a plain lateral kick? Did it start to spiral immediately? I can't tell. I wish we had another viewpoint (from the side, for example), but that would have been difficult to coordinate.

That is just truly amazing nice frame capture.

When you're stepping frame-by-frame through the video, counting the frames for timing purposes, it's not particularly amazing...
 
It's hard to tell what actually happened; is it a plain lateral kick? Did it start to spiral immediately? I can't tell. I wish we had another viewpoint (from the side, for example), but that would have been difficult to coordinate.



When you're stepping frame-by-frame through the video, counting the frames for timing purposes, it's not particularly amazing...

Of course it spiraled immediately since all this occurred in seconds. If you noticed after that picture frame the whole corkscrew event occurs afterwards. That was one quick spiral turn in that split second of the frame. By the way have you considered slowing down the video in a movie editor since you find stepping frame-by-frame to capture an event not particularly amazing...
 
Of course it spiraled immediately since all this occurred in seconds. If you noticed after that picture frame the whole corkscrew event occurs afterwards. That was one quick spiral turn in that split second of the frame. By the way have you considered slowing down the video in a movie editor since you find stepping frame-by-frame to capture an event not particularly amazing...

I can control the playback speed on the fly with my video player.

Now back to analysis.

Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPMVF_3XtW0

This is the video of dueling N10,000 1/2-scale Patriots at LDRS 29. James took the liberty of slowing the video down to 1/10 speed for us, and in there I notice something interesting.

The aft Patriot's motor chokes up shortly into the burn, spits out some sparks or something, and changes direction abruptly. It's at 0:54 into the video.
 
Perhaps for hobby rocket look-alikes, but all NASA unguided sounding rockets including the Black Brant and Super Arcas are intentionally spun as per range safety rules to reduce dispersion by angling the fins, and they do not change spin direction during flight. Indeed the Super Arcas launcher used a helical rail launcher to induce spin and reached 25 rps at the end of it's 40 second burn time. (Ref Pg F-136 Sounding Rocket Handbook 2001 ed.)

Huh, now that I look I remember that. I need to think about what data I remember seeing; I definitely remember seeing that arced spin graph before... don't remember on what, though. ... maybe one of the 'generic' plots in the MIL-HDBK on fin-stabilized rockets you posted some time ago?
 
I agree, a spinning rocket is not a problem. However, if there is a lateral for whatever reason, you get a corkscrew.

Its the non-horizontal rotation rate which is not good (obviously!)
 
could that be two levels of wind? just enough to cause a weeble wobble?
Just hypothesizing... people say wind shear kills high velocity rockets...
Great Screen capture... thats a good camera..
 
Yes, it could be wind.

However, I had a look at the decent of the rocket (GPS data from the AIM XTRA) and there didnt appear any wind.

I really do think that motor is suspect. I cant believe that a ground test is good enough when the motor is going to experience 60g+.
 
Yes, it could be wind.

However, I had a look at the decent of the rocket (GPS data from the AIM XTRA) and there didnt appear any wind.

I really do think that motor is suspect. I cant believe that a ground test is good enough when the motor is going to experience 60g+.

60g is nothing; there are much faster accelerating flights that have occurred; I flew a rocket to 220g once and the motor worked fine.
 
Ours looks eroded outward where the nozzle is cracked off. EDIT: thus implying that the nozzle failed mid-burn, rather than from thermal shock after burnout.

I looked at the O3400 static test on YouTube in 1080p, and there's no failure of the nozzle (or else the tailcone would have been scrapped).

I wonder what happened to the tailcone that Gerald flew on his N5800, as well as the nozzle itself...

Nozzle was fine, nothing noticeable- it wasn't cracked and looked to be an even burn through the nozzle. The tail cone protected it from landing damage. I used the tail cone closure and no damage to the tail cone, just a little blackening on the paint, the paint on the tail cone wasn't even burned from any mach rash. The nozzle was still glued to liner and could not separate the two. The liner wasn't even cracked and came out as one piece. I use ALOT of grease on the liner and I intentionally let gorilla glue get on the nozzle to make sure it’s secured. Just personal preferences...

I agree, a spinning rocket is not a problem. However, if there is a lateral for whatever reason, you get a corkscrew.

Its the non-horizontal rotation rate which is not good (obviously!)

my rocket spun unusually bad, it was not suppose to do that, but it did. Luckily it did not corkscrew. right after takeoff it made one move to the SE but continued straight on that point.

after looking at the video of the bare necessities rocket, thanks for posting and sharing btw, I get the impression the rocket went unstable during boost. Not speaking from an engineering perspective, but an experienced rocketeer perspective. I know math models disprove my theory and sounding rockets like loki darts, but just my impression of what happened. I looked at the fins prior to flight and thought they could possibly be too small for non military high power rocketry. I am still VERY impressed your components survived the non-straight boost, usually rockets tear themselves apart when the flight is going that fast and not straight. you guys should really do the project again...
 
60g is nothing; there are much faster accelerating flights that have occurred; I flew a rocket to 220g once and the motor worked fine.

Sure, but was it an N5800? I was clutching at straws I guess.

Now, how about the expansion ratio? Testing on the ground cant test for a high expansion ratio (without changing geometries). Could this have led to excessive outward flow over the end of the nozzle?

Why else would your nozzle look like that? Can it be anything other than the motor?
 
Sure, but was it an N5800? I was clutching at straws I guess.

Now, how about the expansion ratio? Testing on the ground cant test for a high expansion ratio (without changing geometries). Could this have led to excessive outward flow over the end of the nozzle?

Why else would your nozzle look like that? Can it be anything other than the motor?

It's possible that the nozzle was damaged after burnout as the rocket turned in the wind, and the severely heat-soaked phenolic material became more brittle. It seems unlikely, however. I don't know.
 
i would like to see the smoke trail even 10 seconds after the frame, to see if there is two layers of wind. we have all seen those smoke trails that go 3 different directions.

G forces has a significant effect on rocket motor combustion. Or Can.... It is quite possible Slag buildup was a factor. I have seen some weird stuff, and thats about all i can term it... "wierd".

I agree, it was a well thougt out, well executed plan, and beautiful rocket,... if at first you dont succeed!... try and try again! Good luck.
 
i would like to see the smoke trail even 10 seconds after the frame, to see if there is two layers of wind. we have all seen those smoke trails that go 3 different directions.

G forces has a significant effect on rocket motor combustion. Or Can.... It is quite possible Slag buildup was a factor. I have seen some weird stuff, and thats about all i can term it... "wierd".

I agree, it was a well thougt out, well executed plan, and beautiful rocket,... if at first you dont succeed!... try and try again! Good luck.

If you watch the video, I pan down following the booster and you can see most of the smoke trail. It looks like the wind shear was moderate (not huge) closer to the ground, but at the altitude of the "tweak" there actually wasn't any.
 
It looks intact too, that is amazing! All the fins are there even.

Yup, it was intact until it hit the ground, and then it only deformed:

The airframe in front of the motor (you can see it as slightly shinier because we polished it) mushroomed out the motor case, and then the fincan slid down and bent over the mushroomed section. The fins did stay on (though they bent too).
 
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