Will I see a big diff between E9 and D12?

[BeerorKid]

I have both on the way.

I got a new workhorse rocket with rail buttons and launched D12-3 Three times this weekend.

Will the E9 be better and where should I go from here?

I can hobbylinc D12-3 cheap and E9 cheap too.

I want to launch this rocket often. Not sure if it is AT reloadable eligbile or worth it.

Any Suggestions welcome

Also I am so unaware to AT reloadables. I want a 29mm for my uber Daddy, but even after so much research I am still lost.
Can I still cut the motor clip and JB weld a retention thing to it?

Before anyone answers let me get my Q's more specific.

1. 24mm releads worth it?

29 MM AT RMS, what is the best retention system.

Sorry to be so unspecific. Disregard if you wish.

 

[soxfan121]

well if you want to launch this rocket a lot then yea of course a reload will be worth it (as long as you can get the reloads cheaper than the motors). i don't see any reason why you can't put a motor retention on it.

 

[Gary Byrum]

IMO, an E9 is nothing more than a longer burning D12. All you have to do is compare the thrust curves.

 

[BeerorKid]

IMAG0177 by beerorkid, on Flickr

Maybe a 1/4 of area for the aft closure.

I still am unsure about the retaining rings.

Being a noob it is darn hard to research this stuff when it comes down to it. I really tried, seriously I did. Just last week I figure I will go AT, but am lost. I figure I will get help on my uber Daddy build when I ask. It seems once you play with it, it makes sense, but as a noob I am lost.

Is there any way I can convert my Flat Daddy to RMS? Cuz that would be fun on the lower level getting used to it for future builds.

I would love to convert this to 24mm AT reloadables if it is possible.

 

[cerving]

If you have an Estes motor hook, the AT RMS will work just fine. You don't need any special retainers and 1/4" of clearance should be good. If the hook is loose, you might want to use a zip tie to hold it to the motor, however, because the AT ejection charges are somewhat more powerful than Estes.

You got a pretty big rocket there for a D12/E9, an AT F24 or F39 will make it scoot.

 

[Rrwjr]

I have both on the way.

I got a new workhorse rocket with rail buttons and launched D12-3 Three times this weekend.

Will the E9 be better and where should I go from here?

I can hobbylinc D12-3 cheap and E9 cheap too.

I want to launch this rocket often. Not sure if it is AT reloadable eligbile or worth it.

Any Suggestions welcome

Also I am so unaware to AT reloadables. I want a 29mm for my uber Daddy, but even after so much research I am still lost.
Can I still cut the motor clip and JB weld a retention thing to it?

Before anyone answers let me get my Q's more specific.

1. 24mm releads worth it?

29 MM AT RMS, what is the best retention system.

Sorry to be so unspecific. Disregard if you wish.

You will probably get many varying responses to your questions. Here is my 2 cents:
24mm reloads- I like all of the options they add to your kits. I have a tendency to build heavy, so more choices allows me to fly rocket more often. I make sure on any 24mm rocket I build now that I can accommodate at least a 24-40 case and usually give myself the ability to go to a 3 grain Cessaroni. That means no motor stops and I like to put in a longer motor mount with additional centering rings. I grind the bend on the hook off so i can put in longer 3 grain cases and just epoxy to top of motor tube.
29mm best retention- again opinions will vary. I use aereopak and the Estes pro retainers. Since I have put a number of flight up with the Estes pro retainers, I lean toward them based on price and save Aereopak for special rockets.

 

[BeerorKid]

I do not want to use words of curse... BUTT goshdarnit that is the sheets I wanted to hear.

And anyone link me to the proper 24mm cases I should look for? I ask this on a serouis basis because I have been so lost while researching. I put that one spacer in when launching a D engine and know it is not needed for an E engine. The MM case to slam in this one so I finally get it would be great if I knew what to buy. I will not let you down at all.


I will do more research now, ao sorry for asking, but I want to reload like a mofo and go higher than the D12-3 for sure. I want this rocket to be the workhorse I learn off for future launches.

 

[GregGleason]

The D12 is a better motor on heavier rockets.



There is a false assumption that because the E9 is physically bigger that it is more powerful. While it is true it has more total energy (impulse), the power spike is not as big and the motor is heavier than the D12. You can see that composites perform really well, compared to the BP motors.

Greg

 

[aerostadt]

The E9 has more total impulse but lower average thrust than the D12. There is a trade off here. If you need high average thrust, the D12 could be better. I just had two E12's cato for me this past Saturday. I am wondering now, if I should have used E9's instead. As far as I can remember the D12 has always been reliable for me without cato's. Unfortunately, I could not use them on Saturday, because I needed the higher total impulse.

 

[Rrwjr]

I do not want to use words of curse... BUTT goshdarnit that is the sheets I wanted to hear.

And anyone link me to the proper 24mm cases I should look for? I ask this on a serouis basis because I have been so lost while researching. I put that one spacer in when launching a D engine and know it is not needed for an E engine. The MM case to slam in this one so I finally get it would be great if I knew what to buy. I will not let you down at all.

I will do more research now, ao sorry for asking, but I want to reload like a mofo and go higher than the D12-3 for sure. I want this rocket to be the workhorse I learn off for future launches.

This is the 24mm Aeretech case. . This uses Aeretech 24mm reloads.
https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/aro/aro91241.htm

Here are list of reloads for 24mm case
https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ShowProducts.aspx?Class=82&Sub=97&Sub1=98

Here is an Aeretech 29mm case. It only uses reloads for 29mm reloads. Must be correct size 40-120
https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/aro/aro91291.htm

Here are list of reloads for 29mm case:
https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ShowProducts.aspx?Class=82&Sub=85&Sub1=87


Cases and reloads are available at numerous places. I just wanted to get you a decent link so you could see what applies to each case. Hope this helps.

 

[Rrwjr]

Sorry in previous post I see I misspelled Aerotech numerous times. Not sure how to edit post using Forum runner yet.

 

[BeerorKid]

Sorry in previous post I see I misspelled Aerotech numerous times. Not sure how to edit post using Forum runner yet.

The assist it all that matters. Thanks a ton. I do mostly hobbylinc currently.

My last noob Q is how do I do the aft connection right from where I am now and in the future.

I have read a ton on here about the reloads. I think I can build them no prob, but am just wondering how they work with pre-built rockets and ones I want to build in the future and set up for RMS mounts the proper way.

 

[BeerorKid]

So you are saying these 24mm AT reloads can fit right in a standard estes built rocket?

Because that would absolutely change everything for me right now. Like really. Holy cow. If I could shoot my current Flat Daddy on reloads, sign me the F up. I would not even care if it hardly saved money. I just want to do it.

Please someone respond if that is the case. Please dear gosh let this be the case. Oh man.

 

[Rrwjr]

The assist it all that matters. Thanks a ton. I do mostly hobbylinc currently.

My last noob Q is how do I do the aft connection right from where I am now and in the future.

I have read a ton on here about the reloads. I think I can build them no prob, but am just wondering how they work with pre-built rockets and ones I want to build in the future and set up for RMS mounts the proper way.

Both cases I suggested will work fine with your current set-up , more than likely. Assuming your rocket has a 24mm motor mount to fit an "e" engine all you need to do is use the orange spacer you get from Estes and slip it on end. Slide the case in and let engine hook clip over it and wrap with tape. Same thing with your 29mm mount. I will shoot some pictures of examples for you tomorrow, and it will be self explanatory.

 

[krusty]

I want to launch this rocket often. Not sure if it is AT reloadable eligbile or worth it.

Yes!! The reloads are typically cheaper

I'm going to suggest you take a look at the 18/24/29 hobbyline set of cases from Aerotech -
https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/aro/aro91849.htm

Rouse tech also make a set.
https://performancehobbies.com/secure/store.aspx?groupid=62520079540511

Rouse tech and Aerotech are made to the same specifications and take the same reloads. Rouse Tech are a bit cheaper

Also I am so unaware to AT reloadables. I want a 29mm for my uber Daddy, but even after so much research I am still lost.

The 29mm hobbyline case will go up to a G.

Check out this PDF - https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/u...4-535e2418c087_aerotech_rms_x-ref_4-27-10.pdf

It shows the case and which reload will fit in it

Can I still cut the motor clip and JB weld a retention thing to it?

I wouldn't worry about cutting off clips - an RMS motor should clip into place. Wrap a bit of tape around the rear end to hold the clip tight and you're set!

1. 24mm releads worth it?

Yes

29 MM AT RMS, what is the best retention system.

For 29mm, I used to use the aeropack retainers, I now use the Estes ones since they're much less expensive.
I also use T-nuts and 'z' clips. I'll send you photos of this shortly - this is what's on the rear of my big daddy

And anyone link me to the proper 24mm cases I should look for?

24/40 - should fit anywhere you currently use an Estes D or E motor.
24/60 - This is a longer case and will only fit in rockets that will take an Estes E

the 18/24/29 set comes with the 24/40

I ask this on a serouis basis because I have been so lost while researching. I put that one spacer in when launching a D engine and know it is not needed for an E engine. The MM case to slam in this one so I finally get it would be great if I knew what to buy. I will not let you down at all.

The spacer is used because the the D motors are shorter than the E's
The difference with the RMS cases is that they have a wider flange at the bottom - negating the need for an engine block in the motor mount tube.

The D12 is a better motor on heavier rockets.

View attachment 118642

There is a false assumption that because the D9 is physically bigger that it is more powerful. While it is true it has more total energy (impulse), the power spike is not as big and the motor is heavier than the D12. You can see that composites perform really well, compared to the BP motors.

Greg

^ What he said!

Krusty

 

[krusty]

So you are saying these 24mm AT reloads can fit right in a standard estes built rocket?

Because that would absolutely change everything for me right now. Like really. Holy cow. If I could shoot my current Flat Daddy on reloads, sign me the F up. I would not even care if it hardly saved money. I just want to do it.

Please someone respond if that is the case. Please dear gosh let this be the case. Oh man.

Ah, that wonderful moment when things become clear You've got it figured out - the RMS cases fit!!

Krusty.

 

[Zeus-cat]

A week ago I launched a long, skinny rocket (1.25 inches in diameter) that I designed for D12-5's or E9-6's. As you can see the altitude performance on the E9 is vastly superior to the D12. Keep in mind that this rocket is light enough that the E9 can get it off the pad quickly. Your rocket looks like it is made from Estes BT-80 (2.6 inch) or something close. The E9 can lift rockets like that, but they must be light. Since you use a D12-3 I am guessing your rocket is not light enough.

Rocket Name Motor Altitude
Indestructable V D12-5 686
Indestructable V E9-6 1,421
Indestructable V E9-6 1,418

 

[DizWolf]

The D12 is a better motor on heavier rockets.

View attachment 118642

There is a false assumption that because the D9 is physically bigger that it is more powerful. While it is true it has more total energy (impulse), the power spike is not as big and the motor is heavier than the D12. You can see that composites perform really well, compared to the BP motors.

Greg

Yep. Early on in my return I learned this one the hard way. E9's just don't have that kick.

 

[BeerorKid]

Ah, that wonderful moment when things become clear You've got it figured out - the RMS cases fit!!

Krusty.

Oh man

First, HATS OFF TO KRUSTY. Via PM and on the board, Krusty has been nothing but the most helpful friend on here through most of My coming to where I am now, an so close to being currently.
Major Props Krusty, you simply rule. I am so thankful. (your shipment is in the mail tomorrow, but includes diapers (don't ask))

I will pick up a great set of components and maybe I can ask for some pointers before I finalize the order wednesday.

A super thanks to all that responded here. You are assisting me to go bigger and further in the hobby which can only assist in it keep on keping on.

I will make you proud I swear.


IMAG0229 by beerorkid, on Flickr

This is my new workhorse and I want to shoot it as often and learn as much as I can from it. Flat Daddy thanks you for your tips for sure.

 

[BeerorKid]

Yep. Early on in my return I learned this one the hard way. E9's just don't have that kick.

ACK

I would think the Big Daddy is light enough, but I am a bit scared. Picked up a 3 pack and will test.

I also have some D sized C11 engines. Ugh

The destruction on that killer rocket scares me, but my flat Daddy is a test rocket slammed together in a hour. I might need to test it. At least with the rail and buttons it might get up a bit.

 

[samb]

Here's my two cents:

TRF is a great resource but I wouldn't know nothin' about nothin' if I hadn't found a great group of folks locally who had been there, done that, and could show me the stuff I wasn't knowledgable enough to articulate. I realize not everyone has that advantage and everyone who has posted before me has given good advice. I'll just add a couple of things:

Greg's expanation of the difference between the Estes D12 and E9 is right on, and the thrust curves tell the tale. From 0 to .5 seconds the D12 has about a third more kick than the E9. That makes the D12 a better load lifter and a much better choice for fat (Big Daddy) or draggy (Interceptor E) rockets.

I've flown rockets like the BD, Interceptor, Mean Machine, and Executioner with the 24/40 case and no modification to the motor mount. The aft enclosure is wider than the case, it sits up against the motor tube and keeps it from moving forward at ignition. A couple of wraps of tape around the motor tube and engine hook keeps it secure.

 

[BeerorKid]

It is pretty baffling to me about this all. I will post an AT 24MM launch this coming weekend if I can. Thanks guys. This is all I ever wanted at the moment and will see it done. I am not exactly sure how to put it, but I want to do reloads so gosh darn hard. Like it makes me drool and stuff.

What reloads should I do for the Big Daddy on the lower end to start out at? Building up will be fun as heck.

That Flat Daddy just needs to be flown as often as possible and as hard as possible. I love just holding it and want to fly the F out of it. The harder the better eventually.

My hook is tight as heck, but will zip tie it down. So many pics to follow.

A berry big thanks yall (I aint even southern)

 

[paul.nortness]

The Daddy LOVES E18-7s.

 

[krusty]

The Daddy LOVES E18-7s.

Pfft!!

The Daddy LOVES H128's :y::y::y:


(Click to embiggen)

Krusty

 

[BeerorKid]

Pfft!!

The Daddy LOVES H128's :y::y::y:


(Click to embiggen)

Krusty

^ ^ ^ THIS ^ ^ ^


Do I need the fancy launcher to shoot them off? I can pull the truck up to the launch site no prob. Will my basic estes launcher do it?

I know about the tape on the sides issue. Can I do speaker wire and a 9 volt, or is it better for me to get a decent launcher with a motorcycle battery?

 

[DizWolf]

E9-6's are cool in a big daddy..... E9-4's would be better. E9's lift the big daddy just fine..... but I had one go kinda haywire

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31757945@N05/sets/72157627037853123/

 

[burnout]

I flew both motors yesterday on an Estes Blue Ninja that weighs 7.2 oz. less motor.
I had an altimeter II on board.
On D-12's it flew an average of 450 ft @ 95 M.P.H.
On E-9's it went 1000 ft. @ 151 M.P.H.

Aside from the obvious speed and altitude gain the E-9 performed better and gave me an ejection closer to apogee than the D's which seemed to delay longer than they should have. However, I don't think they are worth the money and I would probably fly D's in a lighter rocket if possible.

 

[Rex R]

you'll need a 12v launch controller that can do up to 10a(more is better), with a minimum of 30' of wire(35-40' is better). you'll probably find that once you start doing the bigger motors that you're on a slippery slope(think teflon on teflon) leading to high power.
if possible you should budget for 2* motor cases in the 24/40 size to reduce the time spent field reloading. since you're just starting I would suggest that you get D15s and E18s and work your way up as your rockets get bigger/heavier...a big bertha on a D is great, on an E you'll be wondering where it went . BDs will tend to stay in sight with anything up to an F39 - 6 (altitude doesn't change much, but it gets there quicker ). as has been said, don't be afraid to ask questions.
rex
*you can never have too many cases

 

[bill_s]

Aerotech also has the single use E20 and F32. The E20 is D sized and a little less engine than the E18 but only costs a little more than the E18 load less case. With a light, fat rocket it doesn't give a lot of advantage over E9 but a thinner rocket with some weight becomes awesome. Also a lot louder. The F32 is E sized and can be really good for pushing Estes rockets to the point you could lose them (and a RMS case). I just got a 24/40 case because I've done a lot of E's lately. It will work with adapter on my bigger rockets, which would be better with a G etc. but I can't do that all the time.

 

[bobkrech]

The E9 has more total impulse but lower average thrust than the D12. There is a trade off here. If you need high average thrust, the D12 could be better. I just had two E12's cato for me this past Saturday. I am wondering now, if I should have used E9's instead. As far as I can remember the D12 has always been reliable for me without cato's. Unfortunately, I could not use them on Saturday, because I needed the higher total impulse.

Please notify NAR S&T by going to the website and filling out a MESS from. Also send and e-mail to Estes customer service explaining what happened. They will replace the motors and probably send you a nice kit to replace the one that got destroyed.

Bob