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Zn+S-rockets fuel I from Russia Help!

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Brayn

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Hello!
My name is Michail. To me of 17 years. I from Russia. Excuse for my bad English language. I am engaged in models of rockets of 4 years. Made rocket fuel of black gunpowder and my rockets with it(him) well fly. I started to do(make) engines with rocket fuel of a mix of zinc and sulfur in the ratio 2 to 1. Somebody did(made) such engines, and that I have faced with problems in calculations of the engine and a degree of pressing of fuel, and also whether the internal channel in such engines is necessary?
Yours faithfully, Michail from Russia. Thanks!
My site www.rocketa.narod.ru
 

KenParker

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Michail - first of all, welcome to the forum. We are very thrilled to see someone from Russia participating.

Unfortunately, we do not discuss experimental fuels on this forum. We do not want to risk providing information which might cause someone to get hurt.

Now, having said that, nothing prevents some member of the forum who knows the answer to your question from providing that to you in a PM (Private Message).

I will tell you this - what little I know of Zinc/Sulfur mixtures is that you should proceed with great caution.

Please do not be discouraged from continuing participation in the forum for other purposes. We would love to have Russian participation here.
 

Brayn

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Thanks for the answer. In Russia a problem with rocket engines of them does not let out our factories and it is necessary to do(make) engines at own risk. And to start rockets very much it would be desirable!
 

MarkABrown

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Mikhail, I would advise you to avoid Zinc + Sulfur as it can be pretty dangerous. For amateur experimentation, there are 3 common fuel combinations: Potassium Nitrate + Sugar (Candy), Ammonium Nitrate, and Ammonium Perchlorate. Candy is probably the easiest and cheapest to start out with and you can find much information on it at Richard Nakka Experimental Rocketry Site.

The best advice I can give you is to buy a book on rocketry propellants such as Terry McCreary's book: Experimental Composite Propellant, which deals mainly with Ammonium Perchlorate composite propellants. It is available at:

www.binderdesign.com
www.aeroconsystems.com
www.lokiresearch.com

A good source for information on Ammonium Nitrate composite propellants is John Wickman's book available at:

http://www.space-rockets.com/newbook.html

Above all, once you finish reading and understanding how and why rocket motors work the way they do, you should ask lots of questions. Find a mentor. We don't want you or anyone else to get hurt experimenting with things they don't know about.

Take care
 

Brayn

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With sulfur as rocket fuel I subtracted a mix of zinc in the book to " the Designer of models of rockets " (the author: Pawet Elsztein, publishing house 1978). There it is written: Among set of versions firm fuel is difficult for finding absolutely safe and simultaneously high-calorific. Therefore there is no necessity to spend research in this direction and the more so to put experiences it already have made instead of us experts. For amateur rockets one fuel, namely a mix of zinc with sulfur is recommended only as is thin the crushed powder. This fuel is already well investigated and approved. However it is intended for rather big rockets amateur and research.
 

MarkABrown

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Mikhail,
I think the text you are reading is relatively old. Zinc + Sulfur is not a recommended propellant for amateurs today. It was common in the 1970's and 1980's but Candy, Ammonium Nitrate, and Ammonium Perchlorate are the propellants of choice for modern amateur rocketeers. Check out the links I provided above. Especially the link for candy propellants. I'm not sure what kind of regulatory environment there is in Russia but almost all of the ingredients in candy propellant are available commercially.
 

rstaff3

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Zinc-Sulfur, aka micrograin fuel, is VERY dangerous. I have one account where someone was transporting a small bag leftover from and EX launch. He snagged the bag (he thinks) on a garden tool. Less than a 2 sec flash burn, 3rd degree burns on 40% of his body, and 2nd degree to elsewhere; 6 weeks in a coma, skin grafts from cadeavers; once complete another 6-9 months of wearing pressure dressings and using a walker. Then surgury to make his legs move again.

This is meant as a public-service announcement.
 

Elbmod

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I'm very surprised at that - I teach chemistry and the zinc sulphur reaction is one we use to demonstrate direct combination.

The way I do it is to mix appropriate quantities of ZN & S and heat on a gauze over a bunsen burner - it typically takes over a minute to react and once it goes it is very very quick. Admittedly ours is unconstrained so will react faster but I don't see how snagging a bag could supply sufficient energy to ignite a bag unless there were other components present.

ALl that being true - don't mess with the stuff, its not worth it!
 

Missileman

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Hello Brayn. I am glad you have found us here.
What kinds of restrictions do you have concerning importing motors from vendors in the USA or Europe?
Manufactured motors are so much safer and leaves you more room to experiment with the design of your rocket itself.
However, if that is not possible, Ammonium Perchlorate and Sugar motors are the way to go.
Good luck and stay safe.
If you can, please post some pictures.
 

rstaff3

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Originally posted by elbmod
I'm very surprised at that - I teach chemistry and the zinc sulphur reaction is one we use to demonstrate direct combination.

The way I do it is to mix appropriate quantities of ZN & S and heat on a gauze over a bunsen burner - it typically takes over a minute to react and once it goes it is very very quick. Admittedly ours is unconstrained so will react faster but I don't see how snagging a bag could supply sufficient energy to ignite a bag unless there were other components present.

ALl that being true - don't mess with the stuff, its not worth it!
Could it be either the ratios involved or the fact that, to maximize the efficiency, the components are very very fine powders?
 

Brayn

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Some months back I have set fire to mix Zn+S in open bank. Weight of a mix about 30 gramme and she was not stamped.
Video of test www.rocketa.narod.ru/Zn_S.avi
3 days back I have received the engine made on my drawings at a factory which does(makes) combat missiles, with supersonic nozzle . Having stamped fuel in the engine I have tested it(him) on the stand. The engine of long 10 centimeters, diameter of 16 millimeters, diameter nozzle throat=5 millimeters, weight of fuel of 50 gramme. The engine worked falteringly during 3 seconds. It was found out that nozzle it was hammered by products of burning and it occured 4 times hence the engine did not leave on an operating conditions.:(
From USA I can not receive engines because explosives do not take in the plane or by the ship and to buy the engine in USA to me it would be desirable. In Europe I do not know who makes rocket engines.:confused:
 

aksarben10

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I have never used the zinc/sulfur mix, but everything I have heard is that it is not something to mess with. I like my fingers and other parts so I have stayed away. Also I do not know of anyone that makes or flys them so there is not much of a support group.

I would suggest that you look into sugar motors. You will find that there is lots of people working with them around the globe. They are fairly safe to work with can be created with easy to obtain chemicals and the casings can be made from just about anything round.

There is lots and lots of information on them many people on the web have documented these motors. Richard Nakka is the number one resource for sugar. There is even a listserv group 'SugarPro' that dicusses them so there is lots of support.


Scott
 

Brayn

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Somebody can give me references to resources where describe manufacturing fuel on Ammonium Nitrate and Ammonium Perchlorate and whether there are programs or sites by calculation of parameters nozzle
Thanks
 

shockwaveriderz

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Here are the two books I would recommend anybody that want to "roll their own" homebrew motors use as references:

Amateur Rocket Motor Construction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6904006142&ssPageName=ADME:B:LC:US:1

This is the 2004 updated version of the Teleflite book from the 80's.....

with this book a person can make BP motors in relative safety and get results that rival the best that commercial manufacturers can make.....

and Terry McCreary's book: Experimental Composite Propellant, which deals mainly with Ammonium Perchlorate composite propellants. It is available at:

www.binderdesign.com
www.aeroconsystems.com
www.lokiresearch.com

hope this helps
 

aksarben10

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The Teleflight book, while I think it looks great, will not do him any good as it is not being shipped overseas at this time.

Terry's book is the 'bible' for alot of AP motor makers. For AN check out CP Technologies.

http://www.space-rockets.com/soft.html

I have the book and the software that comes with it. Teaches you how to make AN motors with PVC pipe. Comes with a video tape as well.

For a comprehensive listing of Experimental sites check out rocketry.org.

http://www.rocketry.org/

To check things like burn rate and design nozzles. Check out the site below. Also Richard Nakka has a number of free references to software to design motors and nozzles. I would recommend Richards site to anyone wanting a good understanding of rockets. This guy has really put in the time and effort to design one of the best rocketry sites on the internet from theory to practice. While he focuses on sugar motors most of the stuff he goes over applies to all rockets. CP Tech's book comes with all of the needed software to design motors, cases, nozzles and propellent mixes. There is another BurnRate program out there that is very nice I just dont remember the name or where it is. Any way the site below has lost of low cost software programs.

http://www.chemroc.com/index.html



Scott
 

g_boxwood

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Originally posted by Brayn
In Europe I do not know who makes rocket engines.:confused:
Hi Michail, glad you joined us!!!
Actually no propellant commercial manufacturer in Europe (at least from what I know) but a nice choice of both distributors and resellers of commercial AP motors (both reloadable and single-use) by Aerotech and Cesaroni.

Try talking with Stefano at www.sierrafoxhobbies.com (sierrafox@sierrafoxhobbies.com) and I'm sure he will be glad to help you: Russia is a little far but I think a solution may be found (he resells to all Europe). He sells Aerotech stuff ranging from 18/24/29 reloadable and single-use up to High Power (for which you need to be a certified user though). I know that LPR/MPR reloads are a little on the lacky side at the moment but new shipment to come in a while (I'm sure) with the introduction of Cesaroni ProXX Hardware and reloads in Italy.

Or you may contact Aerotech official European distributor in Switzerland, Juergh Thuering, at www.SpacetecRocketry.com (info@SpacetecRocketry.com).

I can talk in person/at the phone with both (especially with Stefano) so tell me if you need my intermediation or if I can do anything for you.

Hope this help,
 

Brayn

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Thanks All for the information.
g_boxwood, if I shall buy rocket engines I shall be glad if you will help me.
Recently I spent tests of the engine for mixes Zn+S which I described in the message above, video of the test www.rocketa.narod.ru/motor_zn_s.avi
 
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