Zephyr Build Thread With Quasiglass Tubes

[Philip Tiberius D.]

So how about the Nylon hose with Epoxy? Or will the epoxy react with the nylon and dissolve/melt the nylon?

 

[Bruiser]

deandome Also Giant Leap's Easyglas sock ….. is probably cheaper than new pantyhose, and a lot stronger

Let's speak to Giant Leap's Easyglas sock

I have nothing against this product but the website is confusing. There are two sizes listed at the top but scroll on down and there are two different size mediums and one large. The smallest of the medium sizes is for 4" tubes. I build mostly 2.5" to 3" rockets so that's a problem. Also is that $1.99 per tube and if so how long is the tube. If it's $1.99 per foot then it's not as cheap as nylons. Can't speak for the strength part as I have never actually tested either.

Oh, and the whole process is not nearly as expensive or as hard as you make it sound but to each their own...

-Bob

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

Starting with a $100 kit, then add the cost of all the extra materials this method requires (epoxIES, urethane,, tons of sandpaper, dust masks [hopefully], Kevlar, brushes, etc)...and not figuring in a penny for what seems like 10+ man-hours just for the airframe...seems to me like a Wildman Punisher 3 is less $$, much easier...but still satisfying/challenging...to build, more flexible (L1-L2), and infinitely more durable.

Also Giant Leap's Easyglas sock (which is lightweight cloth, not 'glas'), is probably cheaper than new pantyhose, and a lot stronger. I used that on a 4"Thor years ago; flew a bunch, but one hard landing from a tangled chute and both segments cracked badly. And that was epoxy, not water-based polyurethane.

I'm not saying fiberglass is 'better' than other stuff. (even tho it is!). Flying raw cardbo...er, 'phenolic' is challenging and fun to try to work within it's natural limitations. Bluetube seems great, and REAL laminating adds enough strength to make it worthwhile to some. But imo this hose/urethane thing doesn't seem to bring NEARLY enough to the table to balance out the massive investment in time & modest, but significant, amount of $.

And why use a chip brush for water soluble acrylic vs. Foam or a cheap 'real' paintbrush?

Start with the costs, a pair of panty hose $4 for two legs or two body tubes, not a lot of man hours at all. One small piece of sandpaper, which is also the one used to sand the nose cone bondo fill ins, and the fins. If you know how to manage and keep sandpaper properly it can last a surprisingly long time. As for masks, well this last 18 months has left me with a ton of them. As for fiberglass kits, I have a few dozen of them. Don't have anything against them. I like to build and I like to build many different kinds of kits. I also have canvas frames from MAC. I also have blue tube rockets. Nothing wrong with having a varied and diverse fleet.

This is an easy method for adding strength, though not as much as FG, with very little weight added. There is no massive investment. I use the chip brush instead of the foam one b/c I find the foam brush introduces far more bubbles than the chip brush does.

I assure you, man hours isn't very high at all. This method fills the spirals, fills the gap between tube pieces. Is not nearly as labor intensive as using sheets of fiberglass. As for a FG sock method, I have never tried it, but I imagine the sock might move around on the tube or possibly sag once wetted out. Butt again, I don't know, never tried. As for Giant Leap, I have ordered product from them before, and sometimes I get it and sometimes I have to wait weeks and weeks. Even if it was spending countless man hours as you put it, I enjoy the building part. Would you say the same to a modeler that does scale modeling and spends 100's of hours to get every detail right? It is all in what you are willing to do to get to your end product. I have seen people sand for days to get their filets just right on FG rockets. That is their choice. I have my method and this is what I am offering up. There is nothing wrong with it, nor any other method offered up by anyone else.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

deandome Also Giant Leap's Easyglas sock ….. is probably cheaper than new pantyhose, and a lot stronger

Let's speak to Giant Leap's Easyglas sock

I have nothing against this product but the website is confusing. There are two sizes listed at the top but scroll on down and there are two different size mediums and one large. The smallest of the medium sizes is for 4" tubes. I build mostly 2.5" to 3" rockets so that's a problem. Also is that $1.99 per tube and if so how long is the tube. If it's $1.99 per foot then it's not as cheap as nylons. Can't speak for the strength part as I have never actually tested either.

Oh, and the whole process is not nearly as expensive or as hard as you make it sound but to each their own...

-Bob

Oh yeah, $4 for a pair of hose. This gets me two legs enough for two 3-3.5 foot body tubes. vs. $14 for easy sock. And easy sock says to go longer than the tube, so make it more like $18. I also imagine this soaks up a lot more resin. Maybe I will do a test of this method vs. the easy sock method and I think there was another method offered up here as well. Be a good and fun test to do. Plus I will have three different stiffened tubes I can use.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

The replies to this thread and the one I am also running on my clubs page have led me to conduct a test. I will get a few tubes, all the same vendor and same size. I will do a tube this way, a tube with a FG sock, and a tube with a carbon fiber sock and we will see the cost per tube, weight per tube.

Then I will take suggestions on what rockets to build with the tubes. Stay tuned.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

Once the laminating epoxy setup over night, I lightly sanded it down just to give the primer something to stick to later on. Probably will do this again before paint as well.



I then finished the prep on the fins prior to attaching them, by sanding them down, removing the mask and inspecting that they are all filled well. You can see where I had some small bubbles in the areas I filled with epoxy, bondo and filler.



Since I will not have access to the aft rail button hole again, I installed this and placed a small piece of tape over the middle hole to avoid any later epoxy from running into the hole and causing any issues with the thread.



Then I turned my attention to the kevlar section of the shock cord. It will need to be attached to the eyebolt prior to engine tube mount. Though it will be able to be reached once installed, I will have to get one of my kids with their freakishly long arms to do it for me.
I have included the process I use for attaching cord to a quick release. The black sleeve over the finished end is heat shrink tubing to keep it from fraying and getting in the way of the laundry later on.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

Next I mixed up some 15 min epoxy, this is just to keep the motor tube locked in place until I do internal filets, so it is very simple and very very light coat. I put this inside the tube where the upper ring will end up at. Before sliding the motor in, I mixed up some JB Weld and secured the backside of the rail button to the inside of the tube. I then slid the motor assembly in the tube and aligned it with the TTW slots.



I then used the same JB Weld to butter the end of the fin and then placed it in the slot. I also dry fit the other two fins and verified my alignment was correct.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

All three fins have now been attached. I won't bother posting pics of the same buttered edge and insertion. Next step will be internal fillet injections and external fillet's.

 

[DMehalko]

Try these sleeves next time! Build is looking good, i have found those slots to be surprisingly durable still in bunches of zephyr flights, adds a unique touch to the look

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

Try these sleeves next time! Build is looking good, i have found those slots to be surprisingly durable still in bunches of zephyr flights, adds a unique touch to the look

Actually I saw that about a week ago and am actually trying that method on a King Kraken. Just need to figure out how to do the insides of the tube fins. Probably a balloon.

Thanks for sharing, I was looking for the link to add it to a thread I am planning, as I am going to test three methods on the same tube type and see which is faster, cheaper and less time consuming. My three methods will be the one I am doing in the thread, the FG sock method, and a flat FG method.

I also have a structural engineering friend of mine who is going to help me stress test the airframes once the test is complete. Keep an eye out for the thread. Probably will start it after next week.

One thing about that video, I don't see a reason to completely peel that outer layer of paper/glassine. If you rough it up with some 80 grit that will give more than enough for resin, polycrlic or sanding sealer to bond to.

 

[DMehalko]

One thing about that video, I don't see a reason to completely peel that outer layer of paper/glassine. If you rough it up with some 80 grit that will give more than enough for resin, polycrlic or sanding sealer to bond to.

Definitely not required to remove glassline, i find that it allows for better resin penetration, removes a small bit of weight (granted the added resin absorption probably makes this a mute point lol) and keeps the outer airframe diameter in check to 'make room' for the glass if you will.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

After all the fins were epoxied in place on their motor tube edge, I moved on to the internal and external fillets. I am only going to show one set of these, it is wash rinse and repeat for the remaining ones. Pardon the pics, I was solo and didn't want to get resin on my phone. I mentioned earlier that those holes in the aft motor tube ring would get used, this is the time. Apogee puts them in so you can lace a piece of kevlar through to pull it out so you can do this next part, but I find this much easier. Did this same thing on my Peregine and it came out perfect. Before doing the injection I taped up the fin on the opposite side of the tube to stop any bleeding epoxy from running down through the TTW slot on the opposing side. Trust me this happens sometimes and it is really f'n annoying. A bit of tape on the edge where the fin meets the tube avoids this. Usually. You can see this tape on the bottom of the rocket in this pic.




I mixed up some West Systems epoxy and added a pinch of chopped carbon. Then filled a syringe and injected half into the left upper hole and the other half in the right upper hole. Then while counting to 20 I held it at a 45 degree angle forward and then repeated towards the aft end. I then let it sit in the holder I have that keeps it level. This is the same holder I will use to do the external fillets. This can be done at the same time.



For external fillets, I pick out the appropriate diameter of my PVC pieces I use for this. In this case I will pick the middle one. Normally on a rocket this big I would use the larger one, but because of the awesome design Apogee does on the centering rings and how the fins lock into them, I don't think the additional weight is warranted for no additional strength advantage.



Once a size is chosen, I wrap it with a piece of 80 grit and do 2-3 quick passes along the junction. This does two things, marks the edge where I need to sand inside of, and takes enough material off that the edge of the epoxy sits right in it thereby reducing blending in the edge later on.



To mark the tube where I will put the tape I use a piece of carbon paper that I put across the airframe then using the same piece of PVC I pull it along the junction and it perfectly marks where the tape will need to go.

Pics continue in next post.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

Using the lines made by running the pvc over the carbon paper, I lay out the tape. I am very deliberate in the order I lay out the tape. Spend some time thinking about how you are going to do yours. I always put down the piece that I will use to pull up each side first. Then lay all the other pieces on top of that one. This makes pulling and not damaging all the work I am about to do a necessity

Now I mixed up some epoxy and thickened it with micro balloons. Important to note when working with these, always wear a mask. These are made of glass and are literally glass balloons. They are also light as dust. In other words inhaling them can damage your lungs, so always wear a mask. This and sanding resins are about the only time I religiously wear a mask.

Now lay out a bit more than needed in each junction then using the pvc do a rough stroke from middle to back then middle to front. Wipe off excess and anything that runs over. Wipe down the pipe with some Rubbing Alcohol, then do full length pulls from back front to back then back to front. Follow the curvature of your fin and your front edge fillet will be near perfect. Again I apologize for not having better pics or pics from different angles.


Now here is where that part where I talked about the tape is so important. I now pull the tape off the body tube and the fins. Don't do this until you are sure the fillet is perfect. I pull the tape away from the fillet and I do it in one pull keeping tension on it so that the epoxy on the tape does not touch anything else. I do this while the epoxy is still wet because it will not create as strong a border where the tape was, and in many cases is near perfectly smooth against the adjoining part.



Note, since these fins are not 100% TTW from tip to tail, there is a significant part that buts upto the tube. There may be bleed through on this if you do not add some tape to the opposite edge. FYI, I intentionally did not glue this part of the fin to the outer tube as this fillet process will fill in that gap.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

On another note, the holes on the aft centering ring I will deal with later on in the build when I show you what I do with the tail on rockets of this type.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

To fix up the aft plate on the rocket, I filled the holes with two part putty. The JB Weld one is great and cures pretty quick. Once cured I mixed up some epoxy, added black tint to it then poured a thin layer in. Using an acid brush, I painted the insides of the tube that extend past the aft centering ring. This will protect the rocket down the road from exhaust gasses and heat from the motor.

 

[JasonB]

Finally getting my garage cleaned up, about to quasiwuasi me a goblin tube

 

[tsmith1315]

One thing about that video, I don't see a reason to completely peel that outer layer of paper/glassine. If you rough it up with some 80 grit that will give more than enough for resin, polycrlic or sanding sealer to bond to.

I didn't either until having one come in ballistic and seeing how neatly the epoxy/glass layers separated from the paper tube. I probably used 120 grit or so and didn't get way into the cardboard, but if 70% of the tube surface still has glassine attached, I'd expect a similar proportion of good adhesion to the lamination.

I know it's a pain, but I'm not sure an unpeeled/laminated tube is a fair evaluation sample.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

I didn't either until having one come in ballistic and seeing how neatly the epoxy/glass layers separated from the paper tube. I probably used 120 grit or so and didn't get way into the cardboard, but if 70% of the tube surface still has glassine attached, I'd expect a similar proportion of good adhesion to the lamination.

I know it's a pain, but I'm not sure an unpeeled/laminated tube is a fair evaluation sample.

Interesting observation. Wonder if roughing up the tube more would help. I just see taking that top layer off on a lot of tubes making the tube sometimes not even to handle the weight of what you are putting on it for lamination. Probably not an issue with LOC tubes, but certainly could be for Apogee 4" tubes.

 

[tsmith1315]

Wonder if roughing up the tube more would help. I just see taking that top layer off on a lot of tubes making the tube sometimes not even to handle the weight of what you are putting on it for lamination. Probably not an issue with LOC tubes, but certainly could be for Apogee 4" tubes.

Sure roughing things up a bit more would help, and if you just want a more durable rocket it's probably fine either way. I think that becomes a judgement call, and in many cases it could all be overkill anyway. But a fair comparison of quasiglass technique to the glass-wrapped standard should probably include the peeled version. Either way, your test will be very interesting, and will help those judgement calls. I look forward to it, as every technique has its advantages!

I'm not familiar with Apogee's tubes, but if they're model rocket tubes like Estes, I'd agree.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

I'm not familiar with Apogee's tubes, but if they're model rocket tubes like Estes, I'd agree.

They are much thinner than LOC tubes, Peeling them would make them very weak. I have had no problems with the quasi method on three of their 4" kits now. They are very strong once done with quasi. And to make it just a bit stronger I put thin CA on the inside of the first couple of inches of any opening.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

Got some paint done on the rocket. Started with a base coat of white. Then masked, and sprayed green. Then masked again and sprayed black.

 

[Spitfire222]

Looking good! Nice to see I wasn't the only one who considered filling in the fin cutouts. (I haven't decided yet, but I've got time to think it over before I start building mine)

 

[Adam3836]

Nice work here

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

Decals applied, looking forward to the first flight.

 

[Bruiser]

Sharp looking rocket!

Good luck on the first flight,
-Bob

 

[Adam3836]

Looks great !!

 

[JSW]

then finished the prep on the fins prior to attaching them, by sanding them down, removing the mask and inspecting that they are all filled well. You can see where I had some small bubbles in the areas I filled with epoxy, bondo and filler.

View attachment 471969

I’m thinking about doing something similar with the Apogee Katana fins.

Would you be able to give more info on exactly how you filled the gaps In? I’m picturing putting tape on one side of the fin gap, and then fill up the gap with rocketepoxy? Once dry, use wood filler as needed to make the non-tape side smooth?

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

I’m thinking about doing something similar with the Apogee Katana fins.

Would you be able to give more info on exactly how you filled the gaps In? I’m picturing putting tape on one side of the fin gap, and then fill up the gap with rocketepoxy? Once dry, use wood filler as needed to make the non-tape side smooth?

I used some acetate that I had, don't recall where I got the acetate, I think it was wrapped around something I got for another project. I cut it just a hair larger than the opening and then taped it to the underside of the fin. I mixed up some West Systems epoxy and put the fins on a very flat level surface then poured in till it was at the top level. After curing there was a small dip in the epoxy. This I filled in with some bondo and then once that cured sand sand sand and then sand again. High fill primer, sand again, then final paint.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

I’m thinking about doing something similar with the Apogee Katana fins.

Would you be able to give more info on exactly how you filled the gaps In? I’m picturing putting tape on one side of the fin gap, and then fill up the gap with rocketepoxy? Once dry, use wood filler as needed to make the non-tape side smooth?

I decided to fill this after I saw a few people fly this rocket and the fin broke at that spot. I imagine the Katana might do the same. I have the Katana on my wish list, might fill it as well now that I have looked at it again. I have a FG rocket with a similar design to the Katana fin and I have not had a problem with it breaking, but then again it is FG. Though a hard landing in just the right spot would break it, but in all honesty a hard landing in just the right spot can break any fin profile.