Yet another "ESTES sent me a smashed package" thread.

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More packaging material is always a good thing but that BOX was Clearly treated poorly by the UPS delivery system, which is why the contents was damaged. Even the small box inside that I assumed contains the motors was smashed and I'm pretty darn sure we didn't used a smashed box to put the engines in. I would suggest you take up your box damage with your UPS driver. You of course run the risk of far worse happening to any other package he may deliver in the future.

I believe Christine has already shipped you out a replacement Nike Smoke Tube.


John Boren
 
Rather than a story from a friend, I actually used to work in a UPS hub!

I worked the day sort as a loader for a few months shortly after dropping out of my first stab at college. I was pulled off my truck 3 separate times to work the unload. (One side of the building unloads trucks while the other side loads trucks).

I can truthfully say that they try to pay attention to "fragile" labels, along with "this side up" and "do not bend". The ones they pay much more attention to are "HazMat" and "This is heavy; get help". The problem at the hubs is that the most important thing is time. The line supervisors are somewhere in between a slave driver and a football coach. You feel like you are on a sports team. They keep track of everyone's stats and post them publicly...how many did you load, how long did it take, how many were mispicks (zip code doesn't belong on your truck), etc. It was very survival of the fittest. In orientation, you learn to handle things with care while maintaining a level of urgency. After a week on the line of being yelled at for loading the wrong packages on your track at half the speed of the guy that has been there for 10 years and never gets a mispick, all concern for the well-being of the packages is out the window.

And the unload is even worse, because they can't screw up. There is zero reason to go slow because there is nothing to sort or check the zip on, which is the primary reason you stop and look at each individual package on the load.

At the end of the day, if the package is still sealed, it goes on the truck. It has to have substantial holes in it or flat out have missing chunks for them to send it to the "damaged" pile.

I know none of that is very encouraging. But as with most problems with big companies, the problem is management. I can assure you its not that the package handlers see "Fragile" and think "Yay! Eff this guy! Break his stuff!". It just isn't on their priority list thanks to management.

BC

I used to be a sort supervisor...er I mean slave driver. Our night sort had to run 1200+ pieces per hour, with 7 people. Unfortunately this mean your box gets no care. I actually left because I got tired of the destroyed boxes and unrealistic numbers. By the way, your ground package is not of any concern as ups relies on overnight and international packages for the profits. They told me something like $1/ ground box profit vs $80/ international profit. The other thing with fragile is it doesn't mean it won't be the bottom box on the floor of the truck....with 15 more piled on top of it. Our outbound trucks were loaded floor to ceiling, front to back to be considered full. I think it was 1000 pieces per truck minimum unless the packages were oversized. The hubs get pissed if they get partial trucks.
 
More packaging material is always a good thing but that BOX was Clearly treated poorly by the UPS delivery system, which is why the contents was damaged. Even the small box inside that I assumed contains the motors was smashed and I'm pretty darn sure we didn't used a smashed box to put the engines in. I would suggest you take up your box damage with your UPS driver. You of course run the risk of far worse happening to any other package he may deliver in the future.

I believe Christine has already shipped you out a replacement Nike Smoke Tube.


John Boren
John- Your post if full of ignorance.

-it is the shipper's (estes) job to pack the box in a manner that will survive the shipping method chosen. I'm betting this was ground, and that box is not properly packed. Too much unsupported wall. anything lands on it- you get crushed. Not UPS's fault it was packed poorly.

-its uninsured i assume. waste of time talking to UPS.

-impliying a driver did the damage, or that he would do more on purpose is ignorant. Is this Estes official comment?
 
Recieved today... I am upset, but, half expected this. Probably the WORST packing job ever. How did the tube for the Nike Smoke get WET?? (which it is)
Both ends of the body tube got mashed up. Honestly, it almost looks like someone did this on purpose.
Yes, I am going to contact Estes and Yes, I will probably get another. I may be able to make one out of the 3 different kits.....
.... or a Nike Python 2 stage.

This is pathetic and completely Estes' fault. Looks like a 3 year old packaged it. For starters, tape should be applied LENGTHWISE along the flaps, not across them. The moron in the Estes shipping department needs a reprimand.
 
This is pathetic and completely Estes' fault. Looks like a 3 year old packaged it. For starters, tape should be applied LENGTHWISE along the flaps, not across them. The moron in the Estes shipping department needs a reprimand.

I'll defend estes on one point.... that tape is a rewrap job by UPS. too much unsupported space = crushed box. At that point the taping shown is the only workable method. you can see the origonal, and very good paper tape has been removed by the person doing a re-wrap. This also GUARANTEES the driver didn't do it, as they carry no supplies to rewrap.


This box was poorly packed. there are no signs of abuse by UPS ( i do not work for them) It was shipped, wound up on the bottom of a container, and the weight crushed it due to the dead spaces.


Better packing would help. But packing to survive 100% of the time would be cost prohibitive. Estes KNOWS they're going to lose some. Its a game of odds and costs. But none of that is UPS's fault.
 
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I'll defend estes on one point.... that tape is a rewrap job by UPS. too much unsupported space = crushed box. At that point the taping shown is the only workable method. you can see the origonal, and very good paper tape has been removed by the person doing a re-wrap. This also GUARANTEES the driver didn't do it, as they carry no supplies to rewrap.


This box was poorly packed. there are no signs of abuse by UPS ( i do not work for them) It was shipped, wound up on the bottom of a container, and the weight crushed it due to the dead spaces.


Better packing would help. But packing to survive 100% of the time would be cost prohibitive. Estes KNOWS they're going to lose some. Its a game of odds and costs. But none of that is UPS's fault.

All of our ups drivers have tape to repair boxes.
 
Hmm, OK. I see what you are saying about the possible re-wrap. Why bother removing the original tape, though?
 
Hmm, OK. I see what you are saying about the possible re-wrap. Why bother removing the original tape, though?

it breaks free when the seal opens, and gets caught in belts and machines, leading to more damage.
 
OK, I have done an autopsy on mine and will be getting an email over to Christine at Estes.
From inspection it looks like my box slid off something as most of the damage was at two opposite corners. I can see where there was tape originally, but this has been pulled and someone did the half ass repair.
On closer look at the Nike Smoke packaging, there is a gash in it and some sticky residue. The 'wet' area of the body tube (seen in previous post) infact smells like a syrup and the tube is slightly sticky.

Best guess is that the box had an accident, fell, then something fell on top, through the sealed long end, and punctured the packaging inside. Everything inside looks like it is stuffed in there, not 'packed'. So, yes, a repack along the way.

Since we now have a few people with picture proof of these, I am hazarding a guess that the carrier (UPS) may have a problem closer to the Estes end of the packages journey, before they separate to go their own way toward us. It almost seems like someone somewhere is targetting Estes shipments.

Occam's razor.

crush.jpg

gash_resize.jpg
 
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Is this Estes official comment?

No this is me talking and I won't be commenting any more in this thread since I know Estes isn't the cause of this package getting destroyed. Sorry it happened but it is a simple fact that shipments sometimes don't make it to their destination intact sometimes. It's happened to me and most likely every one that has received a package. I've even had one of those large Indestructible plastic shipping cases smashed in before. You cant say it wasn't strong enough. It wasn't heavy since it contained model rockets but yet it was crushed by UPS. .




John Boren
 
No this is me talking and I won't be commenting any more in this thread since I know Estes isn't the cause of this package getting destroyed. Sorry it happened but it is a simple fact that shipments sometimes don't make it to their destination intact sometimes. It's happened to me and most likely every one that has received a package. I've even had one of those large Indestructible plastic shipping cases smashed in before. You cant say it wasn't strong enough. It wasn't heavy since it contained model rockets but yet it was crushed by UPS. .


It doesn't matter if it's heavy....it's traveling with other things that ARE heavy. Any package can wind up on the bottom of a container, and you have to account for that while packing.
 
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Re-reading from the beginning, skipping to damage descriptions, etc., have you noticed that we have all suffered very similar damages to the boxes and contents?
This doesn't look at all like random shipping damage. The probability of stuff this similar happening at random points in random shipping routes would be very low.
Since it is obvious that we live in different parts of the country, I again propose that this is UPS but (very?) close to the Estes start of the journey.
 
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Re-reading from the beginning, skipping to damage descriptions, etc., have you noticed that we have all suffered very similar damages to the boxes and contents?
Since it is obvious that we live in different parts of the country, I again premise that this is UPS but (very?) close to the Estes start of the journey.

Damaged boxes are a part of shipping. I've gotten damaged boxes from multiple places, from all three major carriers. From the beginning of time, it's just what happens. Estes boxes are no more prone to damage than Sears. UPS ground services accepts boxes up to 150 pounds. That means your 3 pound box of rockets may wind up under -several- 150 pound boxes. Sure, they try to avoid that... but if something shifts in transport, or any number of 100 other things happens, it's under that much weight. I've mentioned this 100 times, and if you call estes shipping they'll even tell you it's cheaper to replace the odd damaged kit, than ship them all packed well enough to survive the trip every time (something their designers apparently don't understand)

Here's UPS's damage claim page- https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/service/claims/hlp/damage_process.html

USPS- https://www.usps.com/help/claims.htm

FedEx- https://www.fedex.com/us/fcl/pckgenvlp/online-claims/index.html



You'll note in all three, if you dig around, Coverage varies and most times requires additional purchase of insurance. Even with that, you need to show the item was properly packed.



All shipping services move BILLIONS of packages. They bounce around trucks. They sit under piles of other boxes as they do this. I'm not saying this to be a jerk, or lay blame. I'm honestly trying to educate people on the best way to ship, and what the risks are. Shipping a box from California to New York is one crazy journey, and I'm amazed any survive it.
 
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I back the conspiracy theory every time.... somebody somewhere is trying to raise the value of Estes Nike Smokes!!
 
Oh.... and word towards the PSII Nike Smoke .... and to quote my RSO last year ... "I don't think Estes had this motor in mind when they designed the Nike Smoke, but Rob is flying his on a CTI H410 Vmax" (for the 3rd time)

Damn nice range of kits there... kudos to whoever came up with them! These last couple of years, the PSII kits have been responsible for countless L1 certs!
 
Mr. Boren, I'm sorry if you are taking this as an insult to yourself or to Estes. It is not intended that way. Chrsitine has been great! She is very responsive and took good care of me.

I think what all of us are trying to do is to save Estes money. Investing a small amount in better boxes and more stuffing has got to be cheaper than sending out a new kit every time something is smashed in shipping.

I guess it is coincidence that both Salvage-1 and I received a smashed PSII Nike Smoke within a week of each other, but I receive UPS and USPS packages nearly every day, and this isn't the norm. In fact, the very same day I received the Smoke, I also received a Formula 200 from Madcow. That is an 8" diameter, 127" tall fiberglass rocket. It came in two boxes. The boxes were sturdy, they were stuffed with brown paper so that nothing could move around inside, and they were taped across all edges and down the seems.

We are trying to help you, not insult you. You, of course, may completely ignore us if you wish.
 
I think what all of us are trying to do is to save Estes money. Investing a small amount in better boxes and more stuffing has got to be cheaper than sending out a new kit every time something is smashed in shipping.

That is a bit presumptuous. We in the (packing) peanut gallery know nothing about what it would cost Estes to use more robust (and more expensive) packaging, vs. replacing the occasional wrecked shipment. We don't know what percentage of shipments are wrecked. Concentration of messages on a forum does not a statistical sample make.

Estes has a weird schizophrenic thing going here: packing items inadequately (at least that's my conclusion from the evidence presented so far) causing customer unhappiness but then providing fantastic customer support after problems arise, restoring customer happiness. So, maybe from an overall customer relationship standpoint it's a wash, but it sure seems like they have an opportunity to improve the way they're doing things over there.
 
Neil is right - I think a lot of people would be surprised to find out what the cost of more robust packaging really is. Not to mention that sturdier packaging adds weight, which increases shipping cost. While we don't know what the % fallout is for damaged shipments, I'd be fairly certain that Estes is playing the odds in their favor. I think its pretty reasonable that any (successful) company of that size has studied that relationship and planned accordingly.
 
That is a bit presumptuous. We in the (packing) peanut gallery know nothing about what it would cost Estes to use more robust (and more expensive) packaging, vs. replacing the occasional wrecked shipment. We don't know what percentage of shipments are wrecked. Concentration of messages on a forum does not a statistical sample make.

Estes has a weird schizophrenic thing going here: packing items inadequately (at least that's my conclusion from the evidence presented so far) causing customer unhappiness but then providing fantastic customer support after problems arise, restoring customer happiness. So, maybe from an overall customer relationship standpoint it's a wash, but it sure seems like they have an opportunity to improve the way they're doing things over there.

Being from China, the kits likely cost very little, and there is a hell of a mark up. Do you really think Estes would sell them at the sale price of 70% off and loose money?( I assure you they make a good profit at that price too)
 
It definitely seems like Estes could do a better job of packaging. A significantly stronger box would cost maybe .50c more per box. Based on John's responses, I suppose there is little chance of that, which is unfortunate.

Rob, I'm not sure how you got syrup on your Smoke. That sucks though. It definitely looks like it got thrashed though and then re-packed in the hub by their "expert" repair team.

My suggestion for a solution to all of this is simple: Buy big/heavy/fiberglass stuff online. The companies making it are better at shipping anyways. Buy Estes kits from your local hobby store, or at the launch. Local business makes money on the transaction, you don't have to worry about shipping damage. Estes stays in business. Win Win Win.
 
I've never bought a kit from Estes because ACSupply has them cheaper. But this shipment was to replace my Fliskits Richter Recker, which catoed on an Estes E9-4. Estes offered me my choice of PSII builder kits, so I chose the Smoke. Not sure what I'll do with the engines, since I will never launch on an E9 again. Two catoes in a lifetime is enough.
 
That is a bit presumptuous. We in the (packing) peanut gallery know nothing about what it would cost Estes to use more robust (and more expensive) packaging, vs. replacing the occasional wrecked shipment. We don't know what percentage of shipments are wrecked. Concentration of messages on a forum does not a statistical sample make.
.

Neil is right - I think a lot of people would be surprised to find out what the cost of more robust packaging really is. Not to mention that sturdier packaging adds weight, which increases shipping cost. While we don't know what the % fallout is for damaged shipments, I'd be fairly certain that Estes is playing the odds in their favor. I think its pretty reasonable that any (successful) company of that size has studied that relationship and planned accordingly.

Being from China, the kits likely cost very little, and there is a hell of a mark up. Do you really think Estes would sell them at the sale price of 70% off and loose money?( I assure you they make a good profit at that price too)

It definitely seems like Estes could do a better job of packaging. A significantly stronger box would cost maybe .50c more per box. Based on John's responses, I suppose there is little chance of that, which is unfortunate.
.

What estes is likely using- https://www.uline.com/BL_440/Lightweight-32-ECT-Boxes These boxes are super cheap...
Double wall boxes are significantly more- https://www.uline.com/BL_418/275-Lb-Test-Double-Wall-Boxes
even stronger single wall are a good bit more-https://www.uline.com/BL_417/275-Lb-Test-Single-Wall-Boxes

Hazmat boxes, which I've never priced before are WHOA expensive. Man that has to blow Chris!

The box alone isn't the issue. packing a light, fragile object like rockets in a long box requires more than packing peanuts to be sure it'd be safe...you're talking firm runners on the internal corners, custom styrofoam, cardboard ribbing, etc.

The cost of the box would quickly outpace the cost of the rocket..... It wouldn't make sense. Sure customers are disappointed, but increasing costs would disappoint them even more.

My point has not been that Estes is insufficient or wrong in their packing.... Just that it is not the fault of the shipping company.... It's no one's "fault" it's simply a by-product of the shipping process.
 
I've never bought a kit from Estes because ACSupply has them cheaper. But this shipment was to replace my Fliskits Richter Recker, which catoed on an Estes E9-4. Estes offered me my choice of PSII builder kits, so I chose the Smoke. Not sure what I'll do with the engines, since I will never launch on an E9 again. Two catoes in a lifetime is enough.

I'm kind of shocked they sent E9's. When I had an E9 issue they offered me 2 packs of D12s to avoid haz mat costs....which I happily took.
 
So ... they sent me HAZMAT in a non-HAZMAT box?

It appears from your photos the internal box is hazmat.... that should cover it I believe as long as it had all the needed markings and paperwork outside.
 
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It appears from your photos the internal box is hazmat.... that should cover it I believe as long as it had all the needed markings and paperwork outside.

There should be some red/white candy cane shipping papers, and a sticker that says overpack, internal boxes comply with shipping requirements.
 
My suggestion for a solution to all of this is simple: Buy big/heavy/fiberglass stuff online. The companies making it are better at shipping anyways. Buy Estes kits from your local hobby store, or at the launch. Local business makes money on the transaction, you don't have to worry about shipping damage. Estes stays in business. Win Win Win.

That's *if* you have a decent hobby shop or launch vendor. I'd wager to say that most don't have one or the other, and many probably don't have either. My local shop has a better than Hobby Lobby selection of rocket kits, but charges full list or greater for everything and is slow to restock when something is out of stock (I'm talking months, a year, if ever in some cases). I've talked to the owner about trying to get some more core items stocked a bit more regularly (body tubes, little bit better variety of motors) but all he's interested in doing is placing special orders....at full list. Then you don't get a phone call when it comes in and get to pay a 10.25% sales tax on top of it. And this is in a major metropolitan area too.

So, it isn't always quite that simple. Ordering online has just become a fact of life for many when dealing with a hobby like this.
 
Brick and motar hobby shops that are not owned by franchises like Hobbytown are getting harder to find everyday. We used to have 2 in my area, now we only have Hobbytown and the two good hobby shops are gone. We are lucky that a local gaming and comic book shop carries AT 24mm and 29mm Hobbyline along with Estes and AT kits, at full retail of course. I miss the non-franchise hobby shops as they had some really cool NOS plastic models and even some NOS rockets on occasion at reasonable prices. Hobbytown rarely has deals on much and their inventory is mainly flavor of the month (currently its quadcopters). I will put up with a few squished packagesvfrom Estes so long as they continue with their replacement policy on damaged products.
 
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