Wood Hardener vs. Thin CA

[dhbarr]

Couldn't stop thinking about wood hardener vs. thin CA , so here we are:

Chop up a couple of spare body tube into 2" lengths


Did you ever put olives on your fingers at Thanksgiving? Me neither!


Neighborhood Ace Hardware provided the candidates, from L to R:

• Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue Max
• Gorilla Super Glue
• Loctite Super Glue
• Minwax High Performance Wood Hardener

Each tube sample marked, including control samples ( no additive )

• I actually used four separate chip brushes, in the interest of both time and non-cross-contamination
• I did all the "2" samples first, then all the "1" samples, then waited about 15 mins, then hit the "2" samples with a second pass

Some horrible contraption for torturing innocent tubes

• It's not precise
• It's not accurate
• It -is- reproducible
• It's only good for relative approximate comparison / ordering

 

[RocketFeller]

Great idea, I am interested to see the results. Were any of the products a lot easier to apply than the others?

 

[dhbarr]

tl;dr : I'm only going to use a single pass of Wood Hardener for tube strengthening from now on

	<---------	better	worse	---------->
thinness	WH	LSG	GSG	WG
odor	WG	LSG	GSG	WH
coverage	WH	GSG	LSG	WG
penetration	WH	GSG	LSG	WG
dry time	WH	GSG	LSG	WG
strength	WH, GSG, LSG		WG	CTRL
smooth finish	WH	LSG	GSG	WG
cost	WG	WH	GSG	LSG

Some notes, in no particular order:

• I only applied these products to the inside of the tubes
• wood glue was by far the most annoying to apply
• wood glue took several orders of magnitude longer to dry
• wood hardener was definitely the stinkiest
• gorilla CA clearly has some extra solvent or curative in it vs. regular CA
• loctite CA was pretty disappointing on both penetration and dry time ( for superglue )
• wood hardener performed about the same as both CA's in terms of crush resistance
• the double-coated tubes didn't show much difference from the singles in terms of crush resistance
• the double-coated CA tubes -did- show significant difference in coverage and penetration ( uniformity )
• only wood hardener got complete coverage and penetration on the first pass
• wood glue was the worst for crush resistance ; but not as bad as untreated tube
• the penetrating power of wood hardener was pretty impressive ; it went straight through the seams and fanned out under the glassine on the first application

I'm thinking I may get a 2ft x 4in steel pipe and start keeping it partially full of wood hardener. Drop in the body, shake it up, pull it out to drip dry, voila! 100% coverage & penetration, ready to work on in no time at all.

 

[dhbarr]

It also occurs to me that I probably should have done another set with thinned wood glue ( thinned how much? )

I imagine it would have better crush resistance and penetration, but probably still not in the same range as the more solventy stuff.

It further occurs to me that doing a full scale test on thicker wall tube would be informative from a weight-vs-strength perspective. My hunch: wood hardener lightest, CA's about the same, wood glue worst again ( poor wood glue ).

Wood glue also had the bumpiest / stickiest finish. Poor, poor wood glue.

 

[TopRamen]

Thanks for doing the test!!!
To be quite honest I have never considered wood hardener, and when I was laying restless in bed, I was actually thinking of how to get a large quantity of thin enough CA that would be affordable. I love to seal my tubes from the inside, but usually have gone with super thin CA or 20 minute finishing epoxy, but both of those are expensive to use for soaking such a large area.
Looks like I'll have to see about the wood hardener. I still get a discount at my local ACE hardware because I ran their sporting goods dept. from 96'-02' and the Boss is a great guy. It's great for stuff I need for rockets.

 

[ratchet01]

QUESTION. With the 2' pipe filled with the hardener,would it just be say,a 5-10 second dip or more like a 4-5 minute soak?

 

[K'Tesh]

Very cool experiment. I'm seriously thinking about using Minwax's Sanding Sealer after reading Mike Fisher's responses to the Velociraptor rebuild that Kruegon is working on.

 

[cavecentral]

I'm curious if sanding sealer does much also.

 

[Marc_G]

Nice write-up. Thanks for the contribution!

 

[dhbarr]

QUESTION. With the 2' pipe filled with the hardener,would it just be say,a 5-10 second dip or more like a 4-5 minute soak?

In, invert, revert, out, drip, hang. This stuff penetrates almost instantly. I'm actually worried the tube will fall apart when I try this, or at least be soggy enough to droop.

 

[dhbarr]

I'm curious if sanding sealer does much also.

That's TODO on my next go-round ; also want to try CWF vs. Minwax WF.

 

[r12ski]

An added benefit of the MWH is that it is epoxy based and used as a prep for gluing wood with epoxy. So if you are already using epoxy for fin attachment and fillets it creates a nice bond. It's pretty much just a really thinned down epoxy. Other wood hardeners are two part like typical epoxy.

 

[dhbarr]

I was noticing similar on fillers ; some water + wood based, some solvent plus plastic based.

 

[Bat-mite]

The Minwax smells a lot like acetone.

 

[Steve Shannon]

The Minwax smells a lot like acetone.

That's because Minwax wood hardener is 72% acetone and 3% methanol by weight. Those are the solvents for the actual hardening agent. Here's the MSDS:
https://www.minwax.com/document/MSDS/en/027426417007


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon, L3CC [emoji1010]

 

[dhbarr]

TL;DR: the stinkier the better

 

[TopRamen]

I was just thinking about your Idea to dip the tube. You wanted to do this to get the most use out of the hardener, yes? To make it last?
What if instead, since you don't want to be pouring it "Down the tubes" so to speak, if you get a small pump-up style garden sprayer, then make an extension for the wand. You could have say, a 36" extension, then set the nozzle to the wide misting setting, and slide it into the tube, then release the mist as you steadily withdraw the wand back out of the tube, stopping the spray when you get to the other end?
It would waste little if any, and you would not be contaminating the hardener with unknowns each time to dipped a different tube.
If you felt you needed another spray, just repeat the process immediately.
I have a one gallon sprayer that I mostly use for spraying soap on my truck, but it will spray right down til' there is only a few ounces of fluid left in it, so it would be feasible to test it with a pint of the hardener.
The wand is a hard plastic, and I would think it would be safe for handling the chemicals, as it is sold as just a general purpose sprayer for sealing decks and such.
Obviously you would have to wear eye pro while using it, as that stuff in a mist or under pressure creates a slight hazard, but I think the method would work, and you'de probably do it outdoors anyhow because of the fumes.
You would not need to pump much pressure into it to mist the inside of a tube.
They make a half gallon model too: https://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3908903

 

[dhbarr]

I was just thinking about your Idea to dip the tube. You wanted to do this to get the most use out of the hardener, yes? To make it last?
What if instead, since you don't want to be pouring it "Down the tubes" so to speak, if you get a small pump-up style garden sprayer, then make an extension for the wand. You could have say, a 36" extension, then set the nozzle to the wide misting setting, and slide it into the tube, then release the mist as you steadily withdraw the wand back out of the tube, stopping the spray when you get to the other end?
It would waste little if any, and you would not be contaminating the hardener with unknowns each time to dipped a different tube.
If you felt you needed another spray, just repeat the process immediately.
I have a one gallon sprayer that I mostly use for spraying soap on my truck, but it will spray right down til' there is only a few ounces of fluid left in it, so it would be feasible to test it with a pint of the hardener.
The wand is a hard plastic, and I would think it would be safe for handling the chemicals, as it is sold as just a general purpose sprayer for sealing decks and such.
Obviously you would have to wear eye pro while using it, as that stuff in a mist or under pressure creates a slight hazard, but I think the method would work, and you'de probably do it outdoors anyhow because of the fumes.
You would not need to pump much pressure into it to mist the inside of a tube.
They make a half gallon model too: https://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3908903

I got to thinking about this a little more, and it occurred to me : get an aluminum gun cleaning rod, and use disposable cotton patches. If it's made to stand up to barrel cleaner, it should be fine for my application.

Mostly the idea with the pipe was to make it faster and with less cleanup, but you make a good point about possible contamination ( e.g. two rockets later, what the heck happened to my odd-sized custom body tube? )

 

[dhbarr]

Very cool experiment. I'm seriously thinking about using Minwax's Sanding Sealer after reading Mike Fisher's responses to the Velociraptor rebuild that Kruegon is working on.

I had some spare body tube, but Ace didn't have any Minwax Sanding Sealer. Based on the MSDS, I think it will probably do a great job but not be as easy to apply as MWH.

MWH for the inside, MSS for the outside should be a pretty great base for Epoxy (PTM&W); as well as Filler Primer / Enamel (Rustoleum). Top it all off with Pledge / Simple Green as frequently recommended on this forum, and I should ( in theory ) have a real workhorse of a paint job that's fairly easy to touch up / repair as necessary.

There! Now I think I know what I want to do, to my satisfaction Thanks for participating, everyone!


PS: If one of these combos sounds like a terrible idea to you, please speak up. I'm not planning on getting an airbrush just yet, too many rockets to buy )

 

[soopirV]

I was just thinking about your Idea to dip the tube. You wanted to do this to get the most use out of the hardener, yes? To make it last?
What if instead, since you don't want to be pouring it "Down the tubes" so to speak, if you get a small pump-up style garden sprayer, then make an extension for the wand. You could have say, a 36" extension, then set the nozzle to the wide misting setting, and slide it into the tube, then release the mist as you steadily withdraw the wand back out of the tube, stopping the spray when you get to the other end?
It would waste little if any, and you would not be contaminating the hardener with unknowns each time to dipped a different tube.
If you felt you needed another spray, just repeat the process immediately.
I have a one gallon sprayer that I mostly use for spraying soap on my truck, but it will spray right down til' there is only a few ounces of fluid left in it, so it would be feasible to test it with a pint of the hardener.
The wand is a hard plastic, and I would think it would be safe for handling the chemicals, as it is sold as just a general purpose sprayer for sealing decks and such.
Obviously you would have to wear eye pro while using it, as that stuff in a mist or under pressure creates a slight hazard, but I think the method would work, and you'de probably do it outdoors anyhow because of the fumes.
You would not need to pump much pressure into it to mist the inside of a tube.
They make a half gallon model too: https://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3908903

That's a neat idea- I was thinking of something similar, but maybe a bit simpler- tie a cotton ball or something of an appropriate size if >BT-50 to some string, and draw it through the tube after saturating in the hardener? May get an uneven distribution with too much at the beginning and not enough at the end...

 

[cavecentral]

I suddenly wonder how well the wood hardener works on clothing.
What if there are "Micro-Balloons" present, and a positive and negative charge are applied?

I'm lost.

Never used micro balloons in anything but epoxy. Get a nice marshmallow consistency it to be light (compared to just epoxy), and easy to sand. Have some carbospheres as well from FireFox (never tried them).

 

[TopRamen]

Could the spray saturation benefit from having structural solid in the mix?
Could you add fibers to the mist?
Everything seems to be fine when linked by Fibers.

 

[cavecentral]

Could the spray saturation benefit from having structural solid in the mix?
Could you add fibers to the mist?
Everything seems to be fine when linked by Fibers.

That would thicken it and cause lumps. Most fibers need lined up (like the patterns in cloth). Loose like a pile of lint they are not as strong.

The solid would need dissolved so it can penetrate the structure, then have the solvent evaporate off.

 

[dhbarr]

I wouldn't think WH would make a very good adhesive. At least, for my testing, it certainly stiffened the existing fiber structure but did not seem particularly sticky or tacky.

Hrmm, now I need to order some ultralight CF sleeve.

 

[The_Lone_Beagle]

I got to thinking about this a little more, and it occurred to me : get an aluminum gun cleaning rod, and use disposable cotton patches. If it's made to stand up to barrel cleaner, it should be fine for my application.

Mostly the idea with the pipe was to make it faster and with less cleanup, but you make a good point about possible contamination ( e.g. two rockets later, what the heck happened to my odd-sized custom body tube? )

Very interesting! I've been using sanding sealer on both the inside and outside of my tubes...

I'm a little confused, if I have a 2.6 in body tube, let's say about 20 inches long...how do you get just the wood hardener on just the inside? Right now, I just pour some sealer on the inside, and then use a broom handle with some rags on the end, like I'm loading a cannon...

 

[Banzai88]

Very interesting! I've been using sanding sealer on both the inside and outside of my tubes...

I'm a little confused, if I have a 2.6 in body tube, let's say about 20 inches long...how do you get just the wood hardener on just the inside? Right now, I just pour some sealer on the inside, and then use a broom handle with some rags on the end, like I'm loading a cannon...

I use sanding sealer to do something similar. Foam brush on a stick.

 

[dhbarr]

I used a chip brush for the small samples. Waste of a good chip brush.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Very interesting! I've been using sanding sealer on both the inside and outside of my tubes...

I'm a little confused, if I have a 2.6 in body tube, let's say about 20 inches long...how do you get just the wood hardener on just the inside? Right now, I just pour some sealer on the inside, and then use a broom handle with some rags on the end, like I'm loading a cannon...

Use a barbecue mop:
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/12...hIr-iAgHP9rDti83fRGeSPCDEix-0CVW8-xoCj5zw_wcB

 

[The_Lone_Beagle]

Use a barbecue mop:
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/12...hIr-iAgHP9rDti83fRGeSPCDEix-0CVW8-xoCj5zw_wcB

Nifty! I didn't know such a thing existed...thanks!

 

[dhbarr]

I got some Minwax Sanding Sealer yesterday to try, but the baby came today so you'll have to wait for results :-D