Will me and my brother-in-law get arrested for this???

[JMX]

Long story short. I've come into possession of an "O" class motor but I live in California and we can only fly "M" class motors. That's our limit.

Now. Here's the deal.

My slightly crazy brother-in-law owns a legit-decent sized fishing boat and he says he knows where there is a "sheltered spot" offshore that is outside the 12nm limit but also pretty calm because of the offshore islands and coastal areas that surround this supposedly "LAW FREE" sliver of pristine ocean.

It's a small sliver of ocean that is 12nm away from the coast and 12nm away from the channel islands that supposedly shelter this area of ocean from the bigger swells.

He is like-

"DUDE! I'll take you out there on a calm day and you can let your rocket rip a hole in the sky on that "O" motor of yours! And as soon as it clears the rail we will roar off after it and I'll position us underneath it so we can pick it up before it gets too water logged and sinks to the bottom!"

My question is while I'm sure he will find a calm day and I'm pretty sure we can actually pull this off launch wise from a technical standpoint. Will the DHS, FBI, FAA or other law agencies promptly seek our heads upon setting foot back on land.

If I understand things correctly- being 12nm offshore we would not need an FAA waiver and for sure we wouldn't need to worry about California's stupid ban on motors bigger than "M" class.

"The territorial sea is a maritime zone over which the United States exercises sovereignty. Sovereignty extends to the airspace above and to the seabed below the territorial sea. The U.S. territorial sea extends 12 nautical miles from the baseline."

 

[lakeroadster]

I'll forward this to the authorities so they'll know who to contact. (just kidding... )

Why would you post this?

 

[JMX]

I'm serious. We want to do this.

Of course we will make sure the airspace above is clear before we launch but we are serious.

Just wondering if anyone is gonna come after us for it.

 

[SDramstad]

So you will launch an O motor powered rocket off the boat? The boat is over 5 hundred feet long? If not where are you going to shelter if it catos on the launch rail?

 

[tim cubbedge]

Not sure it is so far fetched. There is a guy at my club who is planning on doing the same with an R impulse hybrid on a barge in the Atlantic. Do not know any more details but he's been planning on it for some time now.

 

[eggplant]

Based on the picture it looks like you are near LA. Just go to the Friends of Amateur Rocketry launch site, which should be under 3 hours away. I've legally flown up through P class motors there.

 

[JMX]

We are gonna "hide behind" the pilot house and simply launch it from the stern. Boat ain't huge but at 75 feet it has some beef to it.

 

[bobby_hamill]

go ahead an launch it and if we do not see any more postings from you then we will know
you got into trouble

 

[Ez2cDave]

We are gonna "hide behind" the pilot house and simply launch it from the stern. Boat ain't huge but at 75 feet it has some beef to it.

"You're gonna need a bigger boat . . ." - LOL !

Dave F.

 

[heada]

As a citizen of the US, you are still required to get an FAA waiver, even in "international" waters. Not sure about the state level but I'd advise against it. Probably easier to go to Navada.

 

[tfish]

a quick look at Flightradar24 and Vesselfinder ...looks like the Coast Guard and FAA would only get a few calls. I'm not sure if your location would be in international waters. Those 'islands' are part on the United States too.

I'm gonnna say it's a dumb idea.

Tony

 

[SDramstad]

To answer his question. Yes. Yes you will.

 

[grouch]

If you do it, just post the video to YouTube as quick as possible.

 

[SDramstad]

If you do it, just post the video to YouTube as quick as possible.

It better be live streamed. Will lose the video when the boat sinks.....

 

[djs]

launch it from the stern.

Isn't that where the gas tanks are?

 

[Funkworks]

Smart people would get a second boat, a drone shot, and permissions.

 

[JMX]

Odds of CATO are small. And we'd be behind the pilothouse. Risk is small on that end. Or at least acceptable, at least for what we think is an acceptable risk we'd feel comfortable taking on.

As I read the laws. Airspace outside of 12nm is outside the sovereignty of the United Stares. So no FAA waiver would be required.

That small sliver of ocean is in fact 12nm outside the mainland AND 12nm outside the channel islands so it is in fact outside of territorial waters. My brother-in-law as a fisherman is confident of that fact.

But while this may in fact be legal to do, we are wondering if we will in fact have to "prove our case" upon returning to port.

We are also wondering if it would in fact it even would be noticed.

It's close to a minimum diameter rocket so it's radar footprint is gonna be small.

Would it even be noticed on radar?

I mean, someone might see the visual smoke and such from a boat or possibly a far away plane but probably not? Right?

 

[dr wogz]

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should..

Darwin awards?
Common sense?
Sticking within the already established guidelines, rules, regulations, etc.. ?

this can lead to more rules & regulations being imposed.. (And then you complain that "the man" is taking away your rights & freedoms)

 

[NateB]

Not sure it is so far fetched. There is a guy at my club who is planning on doing the same with an R impulse hybrid on a barge in the Atlantic. Do not know any more details but he's been planning on it for some time now.

What kind of reinforcements would you need on the deck of the barge for such a rocket?

I've shot a number of firework shows from barges and large shells can damage the barge or even punch through the deck. The "safe house" as outlined by NFPA 1123 doesn't really offer much protection from a CATO.

 

[mikec]

Airspace outside of 12nm is outside the sovereignty of the United Stares. So no FAA waiver would be required.

Maybe yes, maybe no, I think these limits are in a state of flux internationally. Outside the limit, though, is International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) jurisdiction. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_91-70B.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters "The United States invoked a contiguous zone out to 24 nmi from the baseline on 29 September 1999."

 

[crossfire]

Not a good idea at all.. Make sure you up your life insurance before the launch. Your loved ones will need more money. Just don't do it.

 

[JMX]

We plan on laying one inch steel plate on the rear deck under the pad and launch rail. We're seriously good on that end.

Just wondering about other aspects to this launch.

 

[JMX]

Maybe yes, maybe no, I think these limits are in a state of flux internationally. Outside the limit, though, is International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) jurisdiction. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_91-70B.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters "The United States invoked a contiguous zone out to 24 nmi from the baseline on 29 September 1999."

That is correct but it doesn't include airspace above the waters.

----
Territorial Sea


The territorial sea is a maritime zone over which the United States exercises sovereignty. Sovereignty extends to the airspace above and to the seabed below the territorial sea. The U.S. territorial sea extends 12 nautical miles from the baseline.


Contiguous Zone

The contiguous zone of the United States is a zone contiguous to the territorial sea. In this zone, the U.S. may exercise the control necessary to prevent and punish infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration, cultural heritage, or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea. The U.S. contiguous zone is measured 24 nautical miles from the baseline
---

They can only stop you from dumping trash, smuggling drugs, smuggling people, smuggling goods, laundering money, selling cultural artifacts etc.,

It has nothing to do with airspace.

At least that how I understand the law, and also how my brother-in-law (an experienced offshore fisherman who has had his share of Coast Guard boardings and searches while offshore)

Does anyone have a different reading on the airspace stipulation?

 

[dr wogz]

Just wondering about other aspects to this launch.

Uh, recovery?

Is this thing gonna inflate a rubber pool toy on landing?! You strapping 4 or 5 life jackets to it? Is your brother gonna 'free spool' some 150lb mono so you can 'reel it back in'?

How much of a blast radius does an O put out? upon ignition? as it ascends?


Have you actually asked any one of the authorities mentioned?

 

[mikec]

It has nothing to do with airspace.

What I read suggested that the FAA hasn't definitely said. You should really ask them if you want to have any hope of being legal. If they got a radar return within the ADIZ of the US coast you can bet NORAD would respond, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone_(North_America) https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gsl...1/Jan/49877/ADIZ TFR Intercepts w answers.pdf

 

[JMX]

Uh, recovery?

Is this thing gonna inflate a rubber pool toy on landing?! You strapping 4 or 5 life jackets to it? Is your brother gonna 'free spool' some 150lb mono so you can 'reel it back in'?

How much of a blast radius does an O put out? upon ignition? as it ascends?


Have you actually asked any one of the authorities mentioned?

It's actually a 150mm body tube diameter rocket with a 98mm stuffer tuber running the whole body length. It has spray foam the whole length of the rocket between the outer and inner.

It'll float. That I know for sure!

It might not float for days- but it will float long enough for us to fish it out of the sea.

 

[JMX]

What I read suggested that the FAA hasn't definitely said. You should really ask them if you want to have any hope of being legal. If they got a radar return within the ADIZ of the US coast you can bet NORAD would respond, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone_(North_America) https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2011/Jan/49877/ADIZ TFR Intercepts w answers.pdf

Yeah, we can call but will we really get them to admit we are not doing anything illegal?

Regarding- NORAD - within 200 miles they can send craft to intercept and watch but not intervene unless a craft breaches sovereign airspace which starts at 12nm.

Here is a case of soviet bombers flying inside the 200 mile economic zone and we sent up fighters to "intercept" but that intercept was simply to watch.

I have no doubt if they broke the sovereign 12nm barrier they would have been shot down (after lots of warning up to the 12nm barrier).

Here is an article about that incident.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/08/politics/us-aircraft-intercept-russian-bombers/index.html

 

[tim cubbedge]

What kind of reinforcements would you need on the deck of the barge for such a rocket?

I've shot a number of firework shows from barges and large shells can damage the barge or even punch through the deck. The "safe house" as outlined by NFPA 1123 doesn't really offer much protection from a CATO.

Honestly don't know but he's been talking about it on TRA facebook and at our monthly launches. I know he's serious. I have seen a lot of the rocket at his shop.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should..

Darwin awards?
Common sense?
Sticking within the already established guidelines, rules, regulations, etc.. ?

this can lead to more rules & regulations being imposed.. (And then you complain that "the man" is taking away your rights & freedoms)

While I don't support his efforts, those things you cited are all USA-based and "common sense" is subjective, not objective. Outside the territorial waters of the USA, only Maritime Law would prevail. Is there a procedure in Maritime Law that covers launching a rocket from a boat, at sea ?

Dave F.

 

[mikec]

Regarding- NORAD - within 200 miles they can send craft to intercept and watch but not intervene unless a craft breaches sovereign airspace which starts at 12nm.

For a rocket launch? Are you serious? There's a good chance that even a small rocket will be picked up by IR sats in orbit and then you're potentially starting World War III.

I hate to be a buzzkill but you really can't proceed with this on the basis that you think it's legal without getting any kind of official recognition that it is. IMHO you are certainly running the risk of spending a long time in jail, at best, and potentially screwing up amateur rocketry for all of us in the process, if not also causing an international incident.