# Wildman Holiday sales

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#### NateB

##### Well-Known Member
I think it is just because I live in Northern Indiana and the packages don't have to travel far. I could also just happen to be on a major route or hub for UPS so it goes quick. By the time UPS processes everything and the tracking numbers go through the system, the package is already on the road.

#### Tobor

TRF Supporter
I think it is just because I live in Northern Indiana and the packages don't have to travel far. I could also just happen to be on a major route or hub for UPS so it goes quick. By the time UPS processes everything and the tracking numbers go through the system, the package is already on the road.
Since Time and Jackie use Worldship, the process for email notifications is fairly fast, like an hour or so after batch processing.

#### Buckeye

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I hadn't noticed this before, but a lot of the DMS motors are within pennies of the RMS equivalent (I161 = I140, H550 = H550 etc...). Makes it harder to justify risking (and cleaning) a motor case.
I also noticed that CTI case+reload can be far less expensive than AT case+reload. When did this happen? I always assumed the lower hardware cost of CTI was offset by the higher reload cost. Not anymore. I am talking retail price comparisons, here. Wildman discounts on AT are always more generous than CTI, making AT more attractive (usually). I am gonna look more closely at CTI during next year's Black Day sales. Here is one example of retail pricing of two similar motors :

AT, 38/720, $130.00, J340, 652,$73.99
CTI, 38-5G, $61.99, J357, 658,$65.99

#### cerving

##### Owner, Eggtimer Rocketry
TRF Supporter
CTI hardware has always been a lot less expensive, especially in 38mm and the 75/98 sizes. I was all-up on CTI until the fire, then I begrudgingly had to get AT hardware since I couldn't get any reloads. When I started my L3 project, I got CTI 75mm hardware because it was a lot cheaper than AT, and you could still fly AT motors in them as crossloads.

#### Banzai88

##### Lvl 1,Wallet....Destroyed
TRF Supporter
I also noticed that CTI case+reload can be far less expensive than AT case+reload. When did this happen? I always assumed the lower hardware cost of CTI was offset by the higher reload cost. Not anymore. I am talking retail price comparisons, here. Wildman discounts on AT are always more generous than CTI, making AT more attractive (usually). I am gonna look more closely at CTI during next year's Black Day sales. Here is one example of retail pricing of two similar motors :

AT, 38/720, $130.00, J340, 652,$73.99
CTI, 38-5G, $61.99, J357, 658,$65.99
Me, I'm going the other way because I also factor in the issues with CTI......every time you turn around you have to ask 'Is there a NEW safety bulletin that I've missed recently?"

There are still stocks of the '38mm wrong plastic for forward closure molding' out there.
There's an ever growing list of 'forward pellet' issues.

And that's just since summer of 2016.

Let's also not forget the long standing un-resolved '54mm really ought to glue the forward closure in because the liners are short/the o-ring doesn't hold pressure consistently' issue that's ALSO becoming a thing with the 38mm line.

And the inevitable warranty claim that takes upward of a year plus to get resolved.

I've had MUCH better luck with AT than with CTI since BAR, and I started with CTI 29/38/54s as a heavy investment in hardware and reloads. I don't like playing roulette with $500 plus of my craftsmanship and hardware, even if I'm pushing the button on a$150 burn.

#### Buckeye

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
CTI hardware has always been a lot less expensive, especially in 38mm and the 75/98 sizes. I was all-up on CTI until the fire, then I begrudgingly had to get AT hardware since I couldn't get any reloads. When I started my L3 project, I got CTI 75mm hardware because it was a lot cheaper than AT, and you could still fly AT motors in them as crossloads.
Yes, CTI hardware was always less expensive. My point is that some reloads are too.

#### mbeels

##### Yes balsa
TRF Supporter
I also noticed that CTI case+reload can be far less expensive than AT case+reload. When did this happen? I always assumed the lower hardware cost of CTI was offset by the higher reload cost. Not anymore. I am talking retail price comparisons, here. Wildman discounts on AT are always more generous than CTI, making AT more attractive (usually). I am gonna look more closely at CTI during next year's Black Day sales. Here is one example of retail pricing of two similar motors :

AT, 38/720, $130.00, J340, 652,$73.99
CTI, 38-5G, $61.99, J357, 658,$65.99
Yeah, one would have to fly a lot of reloads to justify the higher cost of the AT hardware. I only do about 1-2 high power flights a year, so it hard to justify the hardware expense.

There are still stocks of the '38mm wrong plastic for forward closure molding' out there.
There's an ever growing list of 'forward pellet' issues.
Reliability and warranty claims wasn't something that I had factored in, but that's an important point. Maybe Loki is the way to go....

#### Buckeye

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I was all-up on CTI until the fire, then I begrudgingly had to get AT hardware since I couldn't get any reloads.
Haha, yeah, I was in the same, but opposite, boat when AT burned down in 2001. I shifted to CTI for a while. I was then 50-50 until CTI burned down a few years ago, sending me back to AT. Aye-aye-aye. Let's hope Loki doesn't burn themselves up to complete the trifecta.

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I also noticed that CTI case+reload can be far less expensive than AT case+reload. When did this happen?
CTI, 38-5G, $61.99, J357, 658,$65.99
It always been that way, if you only compare 1 reload pricing.
CTI's cases are simpler, and thus cheaper.
AT reloads have always been, and continue to be, cheaper. Net of the traditional discounts.

I always assumed the lower hardware cost of CTI was offset by the higher reload cost. Not anymore. I am talking retail price comparisons, here.
AT retail strategy has always followed discounted pricing model.
You can always buy AT reloads at 10-25% off from BMS, or 30-40% from Wildman.

CTI is rarely discounted, and if it is, at most upto 20% off.
Loki is never discounted (it was, once, but the manufacturer had forced the retailer to discontinue discounted pricing), and remains the most expensive of them all.

Wildman discounts on AT are always more generous than CTI, making AT more attractive (usually). I am gonna look more closely at CTI during next year's Black Day sales. Here is one example of retail pricing of two similar motors :

AT, 38/720, $130.00, J340, 652,$73.99
CTI, 38-5G, $61.99, J357, 658,$65.99
The prices you quote are all wrong.
AT's J340 is $73.99 MSRP, but no-one pays that. It is$55.49 from BMS all year long, or was $48.09 from WM the other week. J340M is a sparky model, so is priced at a premium to comparable non-sparky motors. Still a big gap to CTI's J357's$65.99 (retail) or $59.39 (WM discounted) or$61.60 (AMW discounted).

Maybe Loki is the way to go....
It's an option, but remains as the most expensive one out there.
A similar ~650 Ns impulse motor from Loki, J-396, is priced at $79.95, and is currently out of stock. Last edited: #### mbeels ##### Yes balsa TRF Supporter Still a big gap to CTI's J357's$65.99 (retail) or $59.39 (WM discounted) or$61.60 (AMW discounted).

It's an option, but remains as the most expensive one out there.
A similar ~650 Ns impulse motor from Loki, J-396, is priced at $79.95, and is current out of stock. Ok, I'll amend my comment to be "fly them all". Each brand seems to have something unique and the resulting range of diverse choices available offer a variety of options for even more fun flight profiles. #### crossfire ##### Lifetime Supporter TRF Lifetime Supporter Pay attention and keep up. I was clearly comparing retail prices and acknowledged AT's bigger discounts. The Wildman prices I quoted are absolutely correct. If the customer is unaware of the Wildman Club or Black Saturday deals, he most certainly would pay that price today. Go put those motors in your shopping cart and prove me wrong. Don't claim "no one pays those prices" when people actually do. Hell, Apogee sells above MSRP, and people buy motors there. Don't like the Sparky comparison? OK, take the J420R, also at$73.99. Is that "non-premium" enough for you? Even better! The impulse of the AT J420 ($73.99) is exactly the same as the CTI J357 ($65.99).
I kind of did a quick price check Aerotech DMS line of motors. If one needed to buy the complete 38/720 motor. DMS J270 compared to AT J350 reload price. You would have to fly the J350 20 times to pay back hardwear cost. Myself think DMS is a good way to go.

#### Buckeye

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I kind of did a quick price check Aerotech DMS line of motors. If one needed to buy the complete 38/720 motor. DMS J270 compared to AT J350 reload price. You would have to fly the J350 20 times to pay back hardwear cost. Myself think DMS is a good way to go.
Indeed, especially when Wildman discounts DMS at the same rate as RMS on Black sales.

#### rcktnut

##### Well-Known Member
I kind of did a quick price check Aerotech DMS line of motors. If one needed to buy the complete 38/720 motor. DMS J270 compared to AT J350 reload price. You would have to fly the J350 20 times to pay back hardwear cost. Myself think DMS is a good way to go.
I just checked a vendor and I get 12 J350 flights to make up the cost of hardware. Still a substantial amount. Now though with the spacers you can buy a few cases and fly the whole line of reloads. I see the really only true benefit of the DMS line is no cleaning up after. I buy some for that reason just to supplement the reloads which means less to clean. For us guys that bought all our hardware before CTI and DMS might as well use it. DMS comes into play for the bigger stuff L M.N as that hardware is really costly. I know a few guys that got their L3 years ago and haven't seen them fly an M or even an L ever since. All hobbies cost money, this one though you can burn up 100's of dollars in a few seconds.

#### WILDMANRS

TRF Supporter
We have all of the orders in with the manufactures .
With nothing but good responses from them and thank you for the orders.
The CNC has been running nonstop doing fins , rings and bulk plates.
The AT order alone was massive and will be several pallets by it self.
Please remember this was a preorder sale and motors will not be pulled from stock (it would be an inventory nightmare )
Thank you once again for all of the orders, it’s greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Tim

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#### caraviator

##### Active Member
TRF Supporter
But but but Tim, wheres my stuff???? It's been five days!

No, to be honest, these pre-sales are awesome and I've been part of them for the last few years. If anyone has any concerns, reach out to Tim and Jackie. They, like many of the vendors here on TRF, make this a great community to be part of and glad to support these small businesses!

#### Dipstick

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Is rocketpoxy also a pre-order item? Some pretty impressive shipping costs to Canada lol, hoping some amount will refund...

#### crossfire

I just checked a vendor and I get 12 J350 flights to make up the cost of hardware. Still a substantial amount. Now though with the spacers you can buy a few cases and fly the whole line of reloads. I see the really only true benefit of the DMS line is no cleaning up after. I buy some for that reason just to supplement the reloads which means less to clean. For us guys that bought all our hardware before CTI and DMS might as well use it. DMS comes into play for the bigger stuff L M.N as that hardware is really costly. I know a few guys that got their L3 years ago and haven't seen them fly an M or even an L ever since. All hobbies cost money, this one though you can burn up 100's of dollar

Ok

#### WILDMANRS

TRF Supporter
Is rocketpoxy also a pre-order item? Some pretty impressive shipping costs to Canada lol, hoping some amount will refund...
Yes they are it is a special package for the holiday

#### troj

##### Wielder Of the Skillet Of Harsh Discipline, Potent
Is rocketpoxy also a pre-order item? Some pretty impressive shipping costs to Canada lol, hoping some amount will refund...
Tim & Jackie have always been good about refunds on shipping if the actual cost proves to be less than what gets calculated via the call to UPS.

#### Dipstick

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Tim & Jackie have always been good about refunds on shipping if the actual cost proves to be less than what gets calculated via the call to UPS.
That's what I was counting on.

#### troj

##### Wielder Of the Skillet Of Harsh Discipline, Potent
Results from UPS API calls get....weird. And calculating the correct box for a given set of products is a hard problem. People get their PhDs on algorithms to do it. Because of that, the shipping calculation somtimes calculates too big of a box and Tim & Jackie can fit it into something much smaller. When dealing with long items, dimensional weight calculations come into play, so box size definitely impacts the shipping cost.

#### DeepOvertone

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Order placed for those Sky Angle Chutes needed for my L3 Super Black Fly! Thanks Tim and Jackie!!
I'm planning the same rocket for my L3. Mind if I PM you?

#### rskiba

##### Member
TRF Supporter
Fire away - happy to discuss with you!

#### Maxwelljets

##### Well-Known Member
I also noticed that CTI case+reload can be far less expensive than AT case+reload. When did this happen? I always assumed the lower hardware cost of CTI was offset by the higher reload cost. Not anymore. I am talking retail price comparisons, here. Wildman discounts on AT are always more generous than CTI, making AT more attractive (usually). I am gonna look more closely at CTI during next year's Black Day sales. Here is one example of retail pricing of two similar motors :

AT, 38/720, $130.00, J340, 652,$73.99
CTI, 38-5G, $61.99, J357, 658,$65.99
The 38/720 case holds 6 grains, not 5. Each grain in an aerotech 38mm case increases the letter designation by 120. CTI just (on average) squeezes more impulse out of the same volume compared to Aerotech. Comparing based on number of grains brings them to a similar price at standard MSRP. Combine that with the permanent sales everyone else mentioned on Aerotech stuff and you get why people say Aerotech is cheaper.

#### WILDMANRS

TRF Supporter
Guys can we possibly keep this thread on topic and not get it bogged down with something else

#### thom9894

##### Member
We have all of the orders in with the manufactures .
With nothing but good responses from them and thank you for the orders.
The CNC has been running nonstop doing fins , rings and bulk plates.
The AT order alone was massive and will be several pallets by it self.
Please remember this was a preorder sale and motors will not be pulled from stock (it would be an inventory nightmare )
Thank you once again for all of the orders, it’s greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Tim
You said either on the site or a post to leave a note if there were any kits we needed by a specific holiday. Any idea when you might know what can get shipped by Christmas? Pretty sure the kits I ordered were in inventory before the sale (LOC park flyers and smaller). Thanks!

#### troj

##### Wielder Of the Skillet Of Harsh Discipline, Potent
You said either on the site or a post to leave a note if there were any kits we needed by a specific holiday. Any idea when you might know what can get shipped by Christmas? Pretty sure the kits I ordered were in inventory before the sale (LOC park flyers and smaller). Thanks!
I would suggest giving Tim & Jackie a call if there's something you need by a certain date.

#### mtnmanak

##### TRA & NAR L2
TRF Supporter
Not so much looking for an answer to "can you ship X now", but, in general, will you ship partial orders for items that are "in house" like a Wildman kit vs. the manufacturer items (AT, etc) that are dependent on you getting them in or will you wait until the entire order is available before you ship? In particular, you mentioned 75mm hardware may not be in until February. So if we put in a big order including 75mm hardware, will you wait until February and ship the entire order at once? I realize asking you to make a whole bunch of shipments per person is not only onerous but also would cost a lot, but just trying to determine if I should be thinking about it possibly being months before I see any of the items. There is nothing I "need" right now, but there a couple kits I ordered that would be nice to build over the winter. Thanks - awesome sale!!

#### troj

##### Wielder Of the Skillet Of Harsh Discipline, Potent
Unless they've explicitly stated otherwise, I would assume that your entire order will ship at once.