who created the level certifications?

[Lt72884]

So i have been reading the NFPA, FAA and the code of federal regulations title 14 chapter 1 subpart C for HPR and advanced HPR and so far in all 3 publications, no mention of needing a certification to purchase motors.

Is it a policy of aerotech and other manufactures then to have a certification in order to purchase? Because it is certainly not a federal rule. Granted i am an L2 with an L3 launch under my built but sometimes i like to read up on these regulations as i coach or mentor others.

I have been asked a LOT lately of "do i need a certificate to purchase a motor?" and so far everything from a federal level, i can not see any explicit statements stating you need an L1 to purchase an L2 motor etc.

I dont want to steer anyone in the wrong direction but i also dont want to fib to them either.

My guess is that HPR certs were created and mandated by the clubs to ensure that proper guidlines were followed, and that manufactures try to align themselves with the 2 clubs/asociations

thanks for any information

 

[Lt72884]

i THINK i have found it. I actually went and contacted NFPA and they have a free edition of the ENTIRE regulations and chapter 5 states what im looking for. sorry for making a post.

 

[Rob Campbell]

IIRC, the three level certification process was invented by Tripoli. Eventually, the NAR opened up to high power and essentially copied Tripoli's process.

 

[Lt72884]

IIRC, the three level certification process was invented by Tripoli. Eventually, the NAR opened up to high power and essentially copied Tripoli's process.

then NFPA must have adopted it as well due to the fact that chapter 5 of NFPA1127 states that you have to have a certification to purchase motors.. doesnt say what certification but i bet its referring to L1 etc

 

[MClark]

Tripoli originally had a single level called "confirmation".
A flyer could confirm with an H motor and then launch an O.
Was decided this was probably not the best plan so went to the three levels.
Those already confirmed were brought in at Level 1 and a group were assigned to be the TAP.
I was an L 1 TAP member for about 18 hours until I did my L 2 next day.

 

[Daddyisabar]

Consult The Book of Armaments that Brother Maynard carries with him!

Chapter two verses nine through twenty two. "And the Lord spake that all neophytes may purchase one manly H motor. After thouest successfully flys his rocket, mayest thou be anointed as bona-fide, able to purchase even more manly motors unto his heart's content. Being within my sight and mercy all may rejoice and feast upon brisket, the sausage, the breakfast cereals...(we can skip that part!)"

Thus endeth the lesson.

 

[lr64]

Consult The Book of Armaments that Brother Maynard carries with him!

Chapter two verses nine through twenty two. "And the Lord spake that all neophytes may purchase one manly H motor. After thouest successfully flys his rocket, mayest thou be anointed as bona-fide, able to purchase even more manly motors unto his heart's content. Being within my sight and mercy all may rejoice and feast upon brisket, the sausage, the breakfast cereals...(we can skip that part!)"

Thus endeth the lesson.

You forgot the begats!

 

[Art Upton]

Tripoli originally had a single level called "confirmation".
A flyer could confirm with an H motor and then launch an O.
Was decided this was probably not the best plan so went to the three levels.
Those already confirmed were brought in at Level 1 and a group were assigned to be the TAP.
I was an L 1 TAP member for about 18 hours until I did my L 2 next day.

yep, I 'confirmed' via TRA in 1989 #492

I remember discussions at a meeting in the hotel bar at Danville Dare about tests, and how folks pointed out Ham radio needed simple tests to pass.

 

[Daddyisabar]

You forgot the begats!

The Divine Right of Certification actually derives from The Lady of the Lake, who's arm, clad in the finest shimmering samite, did thrust forward the lengthened 29mm casing from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that all may posses the highest levels of thrust. Level One begat Level Two, who begat Level Three. Hallelujah!

 

[2-0turbo]

Tripoli originally had a single level called "confirmation".
A flyer could confirm with an H motor and then launch an O.

I was confirmed at 14 way back in the day. Didn’t have much money to buy motors back then, so buying anything larger than a H wasn’t really a big issue

But I don’t think there were any commercially available O motors in that time period. I might be wrong. @AeroTech would probably remember the timeline better than me. But the variety of motors that we have today were not available and very few BIG ones to choose from.

 

[Art Upton]

I was confirmed at 14 way back in the day. Didn’t have much money to buy motors back then, so buying anything larger than a H wasn’t really a big issue

But I don’t think there were any commercially available O motors in that time period. I might be wrong. @AeroTech would probably remember the timeline better than me. But the variety of motors that we have today were not available and very few BIG ones to choose from.

I had an AT price sheet back in 89, there was an L and an M listed on it. I still had it around, but might have sent it to Mark Canepa for his High Power history book. It was the dark yellow sheet

I did not find it in my last inventory of catacomb papers this summer , but everything else was there, including my Confirmation card and the '88 Loc catalog and other stuff

 

[MClark]

We were doing EX O motors on the single level confirmation ..
My L3 rocket was "test flown" on an O that was 3x the impulse of the real cert flight.
Back then it was ok to do a cert L3 on a rocket that was laying around.

 

[Charles_McG]

The Divine Right of Certification actually derives from The Lady of the Lake, who's arm, clad in the finest shimmering samite, did thrust forward the lengthened 29mm casing from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that all may posses the highest levels of thrust. Level One begat Level Two, who begat Level Three. Hallelujah!

Strange women lying in ponds distributing motor casings is no basis for a certification system.

 

[jsdemar]

Around 1991, the NAR adopted the "confirmation" system but required a successful flight on an H to allow going to "I", and so on. The NAR and TRA aligned with the 3-level "certification" process a couple years later. I have NAR HPR confirmation #0005.

 

[AeroTech]

I was confirmed at 14 way back in the day. Didn’t have much money to buy motors back then, so buying anything larger than a H wasn’t really a big issue

But I don’t think there were any commercially available O motors in that time period. I might be wrong. @AeroTech would probably remember the timeline better than me. But the variety of motors that we have today were not available and very few BIG ones to choose from.

Certified O motors are relatively recent development. Korey Kline certified a single use N motor maybe in the ‘80s. AeroTech had the N3050 at one of the early LDRS events in Hartsel, CO. I think CTI certified the first O motor.

 

[AeroTech]

i THINK i have found it. I actually went and contacted NFPA and they have a free edition of the ENTIRE regulations and chapter 5 states what im looking for. sorry for making a post.

View attachment 681483

It’s still not a federal rule. It would be state law if the state adopted the codes as law/regulation, which is what they tend to do instead of writing their own rules.

The only federal regulation pertaining to sales of consumer APCP rocket motors at present are the CPSC regulations at 16 CFR which basically outlaw sales of any motors over F class to minors.

 

[Daddyisabar]

Strange women lying in ponds distributing motor casings is no basis for a certification system.

The story this newbie heard at the launch was that way back in ancient, dark age, black and white TV times, some very naughty boys in the Appalachian back woods were launching unstable metal rockets with home made motors. They started a tree or brush fire that whipped up into a flaming tornado that inscribed the code into the living rock on the mountain side, just like in that color movie staring Chuck. With a deep booming voice the code was read out as it burned into the rock. I. MATERIALS, II. MOTORS, III. IGNITION SYSTEM... Very scary stuff.

 

[RocketPro]

May not be legally required, for example California is silent on certification, however flying with a club requires it because insurance coverage is based on following the safety codes that require certification. Most clubs won’t let you fly uninsured.

 

[heada]

I know that at least Indiana has not adopted NFPA rocketry codes. The state firemarshall read them and determined they were unenforcable and so couldn't be used.

Every club in Indiana I know of requires either NAR or TRA cert to fly HPR but that's club rules. If you have the land and FAA waiver, you could launch HPR without a cert if you had the motor. Bet its happened less times than I have fingers.

 

[AeroTech]

May not be legally required, for example California is silent on certification, however flying with a club requires it because insurance coverage is based on following the safety codes that require certification. Most clubs won’t let you fly uninsured.

California also requires special licensing for high power and amateur/experimental rocketry (Rockets 1st, 2nd or 3rd class).

https://34c031f8-c9fd-4018-8c5a-415...d9d54b2&hash=467034977D3BC97ACDE66A0D33DE53B4

 

[loopy]

Consult The Book of Armaments that Brother Maynard carries with him!

Chapter two verses nine through twenty two. "And the Lord spake that all neophytes may purchase one manly H motor. After thouest successfully flys his rocket, mayest thou be anointed as bona-fide, able to purchase even more manly motors unto his heart's content. Being within my sight and mercy all may rejoice and feast upon brisket, the sausage, the breakfast cereals...(we can skip that part!)"

Thus endeth the lesson.

Three shalt be the number of the levels, and the number of the levels shalt be three. Five is right out!

 

[NateB]

The Divine Right of Certification actually derives from The Lady of the Lake, who's arm, clad in the finest shimmering samite, did thrust forward the lengthened 29mm casing from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that all may posses the highest levels of thrust. Level One begat Level Two, who begat Level Three. Hallelujah!

Where is this mysterious lady who bequeaths motor casings to the worthy? If she's found in the swamp at Bong, it might be worth the drive if I'm found worthy of a new 54mm snap ring case.

 

[Daddyisabar]

Where is this mysterious lady who bequeaths motor casings to the worthy? If she's found in the swamp at Bong, it might be worth the drive if I'm found worthy of a new 54mm snap ring case.

Any body of calm water deep enough to conceal a high power rocket. You must be pure of heart having not engaged in any form of model rocketry naughtiness. You must also be certified or a squire on a quest to obtain your level one.

 

[dhbarr]

Three shalt be the number of the levels, and the number of the levels shalt be three. Five is right out!

Four shalt thou not count, excepting that thou be in le Dominion du Canada.

Then lobbest thou thy Holy Cert Attempt toward thine sky, who, being gracious in our sight, shall not keep it.

 

[mrwalsh85]

Four shalt thou not count, excepting that thou be in le Dominion du Canada.

Then lobbest thou thy Holy Cert Attempt toward thine sky, who, being gracious in our sight, shall not keep it.

In keeping with the theme here.... Who came up with the 4 level system?

 

[Rschub]

Someone who didn't want to admit they were held back a grade?

 

[FlyAwaySam]

In keeping with the theme here.... Who came up with the 4 level system?

Canada higher is more northern than the US, so they have to add one more accordingly.
Although by that logic, would that mean Mexico will have 2?

 

[Neutronium95]

In keeping with the theme here.... Who came up with the 4 level system?

What I'm wondering is why CAR split NAR/Tripoli L1 in half, instead of making a nice neat 4 level system where each level has two impulse classes.

There isn't a good reason for it, but some part of me does prefer the neatness of each level having the same number of impulse classes. It just feels neater that way.

 

[CoyoteNumber2]

In keeping with the theme here.... Who came up with the 4 level system?

Canada higher is more northern than the US, so they have to add one more accordingly.

Of course - it's metric certification.

 

[Daddyisabar]

Up North you fly Level Four and crank the volume nob to eleven! Sooooo cool.