Where to purchase E and higher motors in Europe? No more Sierra Fox?

[billdz]

Anyone have any updates on the European motor situation? I'm leaving for Slovakia in May and it seems I will be unable to order any larger motors.
* I ordered a few Aerotech F reloads from Sierra Fox (Italy), everything else out of stock. The F reloads have arrived safely in Slovakia.
* I tried to order some G and H motors from EuroSpace Technology (Netherlands), they list a few CTI reloads in stock, but when I got to checkout and entered my Slovakia address, it said no delivery to Slovakia.
* I would like to order from Spacetec (Switzerland), but they have no online store, the website has not been updated since 2013, and no response as of now to my email (in English). I hope Arnau's info is correct and they will have AT motors back in stock soon.

Anyone know of any other potential EU sources for motors?
Thanks,
Bill

 

[giulianr]

Latest update I've got is that by the end of May AT should be certified again. The two suppliers you mentioned are not very useful as the Swiss guy is not friendly and you need to know german if you want at least an answer. His business is to launch rockets to protect grapes cultivation from hailstorms. mmmm. However he is the only authorized wholesaler, so Sierrafox at least saves you from the unpleasantness of having to do with the guy.
Regarding CTI, I never really got an explanation on why it is not available. Only rumors: because of the local wholesaler rigidity (again) reloads cannot go out of the UK. If CTI is ok with that........what can we do ?

 

[Steve Shannon]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/cjscjn/permalink/10158389764354046?sfns=mo

 

[billdz]

Steve, thank you for posting this good news. Hopefully the European vendors will get some stock in time for me to launch this summer.

 

[giulianr]

Great news! Thanks for the timely update.

 

[Juerg]

Latest update I've got is that by the end of May AT should be certified again. The two suppliers you mentioned are not very useful as the Swiss guy is not friendly and you need to know german if you want at least an answer. His business is to launch rockets to protect grapes cultivation from hailstorms. mmmm. However he is the only authorized wholesaler, so Sierrafox at least saves you from the unpleasantness of having to do with the guy.
Regarding CTI, I never really got an explanation on why it is not available. Only rumors: because of the local wholesaler rigidity (again) reloads cannot go out of the UK. If CTI is ok with that........what can we do ?

Guilian, I don't know what your issue is or what mission you are on. I never have been unfriendly to anybody and do speak 4 languages: German, English, French and Italian.

Unfortunately I did and do (for some limited time) have issues with my providers anti spam, what causes false positives and slipping e-mails. Also I may not always be easy to reach because I am doing a lot for the rocketry scene besides selling motors. Stuff like acting as a prefect, organizing launches and such, but I do answer politely and helpfully if I am contacted.
And as mentioned, I answer in a number of common languages.

Juerg

 

[Juerg]

On the subject now:
The status has been given by Aerotechs release on the CE progress. This is a huge endeavour, countless hours and even more money to spend.
I'll not go into details on all the hurdles here.
AeroTech is generously supporting the recertification and the most frequently flown propellants should be publicly available from End of May in limited quantity (restocking expected sometime in June, so there may be shortages initially)
All European dealers are supplied from Spacetecs European stock, usually containing a ton or so of AeroTech motors, the whole range.

Like all dealers, Sierrafox is affected by the rewriting of EU regulations and the consequent need to redo the CE testing.
Although I have masses of AeroTech products on stock, I cannot deliver them until this is through.

To sum it up:
Expect White Lightning, Blue Thunder and Redline to become available again from begin of June on a limited scale and later in June unrestricted.
The other propellants should become available in July. (Moyave Green, Black Jack, Warp 9, Dark Matter, Metal Storm)

Best regards

Juerg

 

[Juerg]

On a side note:
The legal aspect of access to motors is changing as well.
Motors containing less than 150g net explosive mass (Up to H) will be a P1 Pyrotechnic, while larger motors will be P2.

P2 generally means that you need:
- A purchase permit by your Country
- be knowledgeable (in a governmental view = usually user Licence) about the handling

So each contry will face some challenges that are new on this Level.
I am in contact with various organizations (eg. UKRA, Tripoli prefectures) to coordinate and try to reach a common policy on this matter.

Best regards

Juerg

 

[Juerg]

As we all know, threads are worthless without pictures.
So here two shots (taken by cellphone) of test firings held at Spacetecs facilities under supervision by EU Auditors.
A total of 160 (!!!) motors has to be burned and measured.

 

[Pyropetepete]

Sorry who is calling them P1 & P2?

From my own talks with HSE the use of ADR is looking likely. Glad I have mine already due to my work.

 

[Steve Shannon]

On a side note:
The legal aspect of access to motors is changing as well.
Motors containing less than 150g net explosive mass (Up to H) will be a P1 Pyrotechnic, while larger motors will be P2.

P2 generally means that you need:
- A purchase permit by your Country
- be knowledgeable (in a governmental view = usually user Licence) about the handling

So each contry will face some challenges that are new on this Level.
I am in contact with various organizations (eg. UKRA, Tripoli prefectures) to coordinate and try to reach a common policy on this matter.

Best regards

Juerg

Danke sehr, Juerg!

 

[Maarten]

Juerg,
Also a big thank you from Amsterdam, keep us posted in regards to he EU certifications!

 

[Juerg]

Sorry who is calling them P1 & P2?

From my own talks with HSE the use of ADR is looking likely. Glad I have mine already due to my work.

The whole classification is "pyrotechnic for technical use", what it should have been from the beginning.
Pyrotechnics are grouped into two groups:
P1: Available for any adult
P2: Available only with purchase permit and some proof of knowledge (what this means does vary from country to country and is currently being negotiated)

This has nothing to do with ADR (tranport / storage classification) that remains unaffected by all this (1.4C).
I try to get smaller motors into 1.4S, but that's a different book.

Due to lack of finished regulation, the EU insisted in having them classified as "explosives" in 2007. That has been done, at substantial cost. Now, a couple years later, the regulation has been written and the EU calls the previous classification void, has them redone and classified as "pyrotechnics" (and paid for )

 

[Steve Shannon]

The whole classification is "pyrotechnic for technical use", what it should have been from the beginning.
Pyrotechnics are grouped into two groups:
P1: Available for any adult
P2: Available only with purchase permit and some proof of knowledge (what this means does vary from country to country and is currently being negotiated)

This has nothing to do with ADR (tranport / storage classification) that remains unaffected by all this (1.4C).
I try to get smaller motors into 1.4S, but that's a different book.

Due to lack of finished regulation, the EU insisted in having them classified as "explosives" in 2007. That has been done, at substantial cost. Now, a couple years later, the regulation has been written and the EU calls the previous classification void, has them redone and classified as "pyrotechnics" (and paid for )

Is there a possibility that high power certification and a current Tripoli membership could be accepted as proof of experience for P2? Is there anything our organization can do to help?

 

[Pyropetepete]

The whole classification is "pyrotechnic for technical use", what it should have been from the beginning.
Pyrotechnics are grouped into two groups:
P1: Available for any adult
P2: Available only with purchase permit and some proof of knowledge (what this means does vary from country to country and is currently being negotiated)

This has nothing to do with ADR (tranport / storage classification) that remains unaffected by all this (1.4C).
I try to get smaller motors into 1.4S, but that's a different book.

Due to lack of finished regulation, the EU insisted in having them classified as "explosives" in 2007. That has been done, at substantial cost. Now, a couple years later, the regulation has been written and the EU calls the previous classification void, has them redone and classified as "pyrotechnics" (and paid for )

ADR applies over 50kg net, end of. A DGN will be required for moving them as well. Regardless of the classification. Technically it’s 1.1D due to the igniter.

 

[Juerg]

Is there a possibility that high power certification and a current Tripoli membership could be accepted as proof of experience for P2? Is there anything our organization can do to help?

Well, what is the difference between a H123 (P1) and an I161 (P2) in terms of user handling?
None!
So demanding a special qualification is nonsense.
Formally some paper needs to be handed out, but it doesn't make sense to demand any "proof of skills" on the motor assembly side.
Active membership in some rocket club is enough qualification imho.
On top of that, independent of legal requirements (but mandatory), High power certification covers the "operation safety" of rockets.

 

[Juerg]

ADR applies over 50kg net, end of. A DGN will be required for moving them as well. Regardless of the classification. Technically it’s 1.1D due to the igniter.

That's not correct.
Currently all products are 1.4C as per German BAM, so special ADR requirements apply over 333kg (1000 Points ADR) only.
Below that: Transport in original packaging, well stowed.
The igniters are 1.4S, not 1.1D.

Local regulations may apply on top of that. I am aware that in the UK a list of UN Numbers have been specifically exempt from certain regulation via UK law.
That's an other story that the individual country organizations / dealers have to look into.

 

[StuartL_UK]

ADR applies over 50kg net, end of. A DGN will be required for moving them as well. Regardless of the classification. Technically it’s 1.1D due to the igniter.

ADR does apply over 50kg but exemptions are in place for most of the ADR regs up to 333kg HT 4. If you're transporting HT 3 (particularly if you're mixing it with HT 4) then other rules apply to meet the exemptions. Under the exemptions only minimal parts of ADR apply (e.g. the fire extinguisher) and you don't need to apply for loading/unloading permits, etc.

 

[matteofranceschini]

On the subject now:
The status has been given by Aerotechs release on the CE progress. This is a huge endeavour, countless hours and even more money to spend.
I'll not go into details on all the hurdles here.
AeroTech is generously supporting the recertification and the most frequently flown propellants should be publicly available from End of May in limited quantity (restocking expected sometime in June, so there may be shortages initially)
All European dealers are supplied from Spacetecs European stock, usually containing a ton or so of AeroTech motors, the whole range.

Like all dealers, Sierrafox is affected by the rewriting of EU regulations and the consequent need to redo the CE testing.
Although I have masses of AeroTech products on stock, I cannot deliver them until this is through.

To sum it up:
Expect White Lightning, Blue Thunder and Redline to become available again from begin of June on a limited scale and later in June unrestricted.
The other propellants should become available in July. (Moyave Green, Black Jack, Warp 9, Dark Matter, Metal Storm)

Best regards

Juerg

Wow, Juerg! Thank you very much for the update!

I'm definitely going to buy a couple AT 54mm reloads this summer, but I also have a 5 year old 150mm CTI motor that I bought before the accident and I'm still waiting to be able to use... Do you think that will be possible to import a 150mm CTI reload in the future?

thanks for the awesome work BTW!

 

[billdz]

Wow, Juerg! Thank you very much for the update!

I'm definitely going to buy a couple AT 54mm reloads this summer, but I also have a 5 year old 150mm CTI motor that I bought before the accident and I'm still waiting to be able to use... Do you think that will be possible to import a 150mm CTI reload in the future?

thanks for the awesome work BTW!

Thanks to Juerg and all who are working to bring high power motors back to the European market. As of today, the Sierra Fox web shop is still showing "out of stock" on all G and higher motors. I emailed and was advised that they expect to receive some Aerotech motors soon.

 

[matteofranceschini]

Thanks to Juerg and all who are working to bring high power motors back to the European market. As of today, the Sierra Fox web shop is still showing "out of stock" on all G and higher motors. I emailed and was advised that they expect to receive some Aerotech motors soon.

I live in Milan and my group talked last week with Sierrafox: they expect to have news (at least for the K motors we've asked for) NET July/August!

 

[billdz]

Thanks for the info, I am also waiting. What do you mean "NET"?

 

[matteofranceschini]

Thanks for the info, I am also waiting. What do you mean "NET"?

Sorry for the abbreviation, it's a "Not Earlier Than"

 

[billdz]

Sierra Fox is now taking orders for Aerotech HPR motors.