Where to purchase E and higher motors in Europe? No more Sierra Fox?

Discussion in 'United Kingdom Rocketry' started by billdz, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. Feb 9, 2018 #1

    billdz

    billdz

    billdz

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    Hi,
    Last year I posted about my trip to Slovakia and asked where to purchase larger motors in Europe. It seems every hobby shop sells Estes and Klima kits and A through D motors, but no E or higher motors. Sierra Fox in Italy was suggested, and indeed they were then selling higher powered motors. But I just looked at their website and it seems now they also are just selling A-D, see http://www.sierrafoxhobbies.com/en/4-model-rocket-motors.

    What happened, have the regulations changed? Is there any other EU source for E and higher motors?
    Thanks,
    Bill
     
  2. Feb 10, 2018 #2

    Reinhard

    Reinhard

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    I'm not privy to details, but apparently the CE certification for the motors expired and is in the process of being renewed. This process needs to be finished, before the motors become available again.

    Reinhard
     
  3. Feb 11, 2018 #3

    billdz

    billdz

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    Thanks for the reply. Certification expired for Sierra Fox or for Europe in general? Is there any other vendor besides Sierra Fox?
     
  4. Feb 11, 2018 #4

    Reinhard

    Reinhard

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    The CE certification expired for ATs in the EU. Given that CTIs were certified a couple of months earlier, they might also be affected, but the current situation with CTI is more complicated and I don't have information regarding their certification status.

    Reinhard
     
  5. Apr 15, 2018 #5

    billdz

    billdz

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    I see that Sierra Fox is once again selling high power motors, so it seems the certification issue has been resolved.

    Is Sierra Fox the only source in Europe for high power motors? Are there any other shops?
     
  6. Apr 17, 2018 #6

    tibbe

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    There's a local dealer in Switzerland (Spacetec) but I don't know if he can ship motors.

    Sent from my Pixel using Rocketry Forum mobile app
     
  7. Apr 17, 2018 #7

    Reinhard

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    Besides being a dealer, Spacetec is the exclusive European importer for AT. Another dealer that opened for business not to long ago is https://eurospacetechnology.eu/. They appeared around the same time when Rebel Space became defunct.

    Reinhard
     
  8. Apr 17, 2018 #8

    billdz

    billdz

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    Thanks for the info. Spacetec has a website in German and English, but it has not been updated since 2013, are they still in business?

    I did see the Rocket World page, https://eurospacetechnology.eu, the web says all AT motors are out of stock, only casings are available. They do show some CTI reloads in stock.
     
  9. Apr 18, 2018 #9

    Reinhard

    Reinhard

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    Spacetec is still around, but sometimes hard to reach.

    Reinhard
     
  10. May 18, 2018 #10

    giulianr

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    Spacetec is the wholesaler for Aerotech in Europe, including UK I believe. He is the one holding the CE certification for all the motors. Tha certification expired early in 2017 and all recharges were banned from sale immediately. After a while they got permission to clear the inventory (that's why they are back on sale) but not to import new motors. We are basically stuck there here in Europe. Certification is expensive and nobody wants to put forward the cash. There are lauches upcoming in Spain Germany, Italy and other places (no idea about UK) and no motors for the rockets. Now Klima clusters are becoming very popular!
     
  11. May 19, 2018 #11

    billdz

    billdz

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    Thanks for the info. What about CTI, is there also a certification issue? Rocket World is showing availability for CTI reloads. Has Klima ever considered making larger motors?
     
  12. May 19, 2018 #12

    giulianr

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    I have 'heard' that Klima got a big order from the german army for signalling rockets. And these will be powered by 29 mm single use motors. So hopefully in few years we will get plenty of the stuff. CTI reloads were sold by Rebel Space who went out of business and had a so-so reputation. The new guys that picked up the business 'might' have the same problems. CTI basically has no credible resalers in Europe.
     
  13. May 20, 2018 #13

    billdz

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    A 29mm Klima would be great. Thanks for the info, sounds like I better order from Sierra Fox before they are out of stock.
     
  14. Jul 4, 2018 #14

    billdz

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    I ordered some F and G Aerotech motors from Sierra Fox and successfully launched today in Slovakia. Also had success with a 2xD9-5 Klima.

    I've noticed that the ejection charge on Klima motors seems to be substantially weaker than the charge on Estes and AT motors. Can anyone confirm this?
     
  15. Jul 5, 2018 #15

    giulianr

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    I have used few Klima D9 with very powerful charges! One burned the parachute and another one popped out the motor, damaged the rocket and burned the parachute.
    My guess is that it's unpredictable, some batches have very hot charges and some other have weak charges. Probably you should test one motor with a strong and heavy rocket first, just to check out the charge power of the batch.
     
  16. Jul 5, 2018 #16

    billdz

    billdz

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    That's interesting, thanks for the reply. I have had the opposite problem, three times at ejection the nose cone popped off but the chute stayed partially inside the body tube. Twice the chute eventually worked its way out but once it stayed in and there was a pretty hard landing, cracked a fin. I thought I was loading the chute incorrectly until I realized there were no deployment issues with Estes and AT motors, all 3 problem flights were with Klima motors, 3 different rockets, all rather large for an 18mm motor.
     
  17. Sep 12, 2018 #17

    giulianr

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    This is what I mean when I talk about large Klima clusters....

    seen at SRM 2018 in Alcolea de Cinca, Spain
     

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  18. Sep 12, 2018 #18

    billdz

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    That's awesome, a cluster of over 40 motors. How was the flight?
     
  19. Sep 13, 2018 #19

    giulianr

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    great flight, amazing rocket.
    The Monegros desert in the background
     

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  20. Sep 13, 2018 #20

    giulianr

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    Tim51 and timbucktoo like this.
  21. Sep 13, 2018 #21

    billdz

    billdz

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    Incredible that so many motors fired simultaneously, thanks for the video.
     
  22. Sep 22, 2018 at 9:28 AM #22

    StuartL_UK

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    Bit late to the party (Necro post!) but wanted to clarify the little that I know of the motor certifications in Europe:
    - Cesaroni/CTI are recertified for the whole of the EU as of February 2018 and have formally indicated that they intend to keep the certification valid long term.
    - Aerotech certification is in progress by the wholesaler in Switzerland (Spacetec).
    - Klima are certified for a number of smaller motors (up to D, I think, not sure on this?).
    - Estes are certified for a A-D motors.
    - As far as I know hybrid motors are unregulated throughout the EU though materials handling regulations apply to N2O compressed gas cylinders. I'm not aware of anyone actively manufacturing hybrid motors for sale though I know at least one person working on a new hybrid motor which he intends to sell. No indication yet of likelihood of availability. Some vendors still have stock of hybrid motors (mostly Contrail) but reloads (grains) aren't always available.

    Personal thought: Estes are still manufacturing larger (E) motors but these have been out of EU certification for a while. I take the claim that these are being recertified with a pinch of salt because it's been a long time since they were legally available and Estes have had many years to resolve this issue already.
     
  23. Sep 22, 2018 at 10:33 AM #23

    acalver

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    I don't understand UK certification but this is from current LOCEF explosives database referring to current Estes E BP motors. Any shed any light on this?
     

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  24. Sep 22, 2018 at 10:57 AM #24

    StuartL_UK

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    That's bizarre, it references Special Provision 110 which isn't listed in the 2011 or 2017 ADR. I've no idea what Special Provision 110 means. Maybe those who ask about it are never se...
     
  25. Sep 22, 2018 at 11:02 AM #25

    StuartL_UK

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    @acalver Out of curiosity, does that list anything differently for the A-D motors?
     
  26. Sep 22, 2018 at 3:29 PM #26

    acalver

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    This is the full Estes list
     

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  27. Sep 23, 2018 at 5:47 AM #27

    StuartL_UK

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    So I guess it's the 1.4C vs 1.4S that's the problem, it bumps up the storage and transport requirements and makes the importers jittery.

    Seems likely that they *could* be imported, though. Might be worth looking into.
     
  28. Sep 23, 2018 at 3:13 PM #28

    billdz

    billdz

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    Thanks so much for this info. Hopefully this means CTI motors will be available next summer, and perhaps Aerotech from Spacetec.

    I just tried to go to the Sierra Fox website and it is down, temporarily I hope, http://www.sierrafoxhobbies.com/
     

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