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dford

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I am ready to begin my certification adventure and I was looking at the LOC minnie magg for an L1\L2 bird but it is 38MM. I've noticed 38MM reloads carry higher costs and hazmat fees over many 29MM reloads. I could buy an adapter for my current case but I'm uncertain that I'd even want to venture into MORE 29MM cases.
Then my thought is I'm planning on getting L2 certified so then many L2 motors are 54MM with hazmat fees. I would most likely fly L1 range the most occasional L2 and occasional mid power stuff.
Where should I BEGIN to invest in reloads casings and size of motor mount for an L1 L2 bird to make the most out of what I intend to fly?
What do most people end up flying after getting certified and investing money into?
Aerotech motors
 
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CzTeacherMan

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I fly tons of H, I, J loads. Mostly in 29/38... Wildman Jr kits are totally worth the investment. Good for sport flying and L2 altitude cheaply
 

rharshberger

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There are plenty of L2 options in 38mm motors. 29mm and 38s are going to give you lots of flying options.
 

DavidMcCann

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People wind up all over the place. Some certify and go back to flying G's. Some like flying as large a motor as they can.

In your case you have a few options, adapting down to 29mm you can get some cool flights on Mini Maggs with no hazmat from aerotech cases.

Loki (https://lokiresearch.com/secure/store.asp?groupid=831200410431019) has 14 38mm loads in non-cert/ L1 that require no haz mat fee.


Going L2 in 38mm certainly leaves many options. The Aerotech 720 case has many cool loads, and is very reasonably priced to entice certifications. There's also a 1080 and 1320 case but they won't easily fit in a mini magg. The Loki 740 case has 4 L2 loads and the 1200 has 5 (again the 1200 won't easily fit in a magg)


Personally, what I did was invest in 38mm hardware for L2 and I buy one big hazmat order a year to offset the cost.

A good option for you may be to get an aerotech 29/240 to fly L1, and a 38/720 to fly L2 stuff. Both are reasonably priced, and have many loads.
 

dford

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People wind up all over the place. Some certify and go back to flying G's. Some like flying as large a motor as they can.

In your case you have a few options, adapting down to 29mm you can get some cool flights on Mini Maggs with no hazmat from aerotech cases.

Loki (https://lokiresearch.com/secure/store.asp?groupid=831200410431019) has 14 38mm loads in non-cert/ L1 that require no haz mat fee.


Going L2 in 38mm certainly leaves many options. The Aerotech 720 case has many cool loads, and is very reasonably priced to entice certifications. There's also a 1080 and 1320 case but they won't easily fit in a mini magg. The Loki 740 case has 4 L2 loads and the 1200 has 5 (again the 1200 won't easily fit in a magg)


Personally, what I did was invest in 38mm hardware for L2 and I buy one big hazmat order a year to offset the cost.

A good option for you may be to get an aerotech 29/240 to fly L1, and a 38/720 to fly L2 stuff. Both are reasonably priced, and have many loads.
Awesome input. Thank you kindly.
 

DavidMcCann

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Awesome input. Thank you kindly.
One thing of note... the 38/720 is the case to fly the I600R. It is a nearly full I motor, and one of the biggest you can fly as an L1. It ships hazmat, but until you cross over into L2, it's a pretty badass motor. (that case also flies L2 loads. I certified on the J500G, and about a million people have on the J350W)

I600R - J500G
 

NateLowrie

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People wind up all over the place. Some certify and go back to flying G's. Some like flying as large a motor as they can.

In your case you have a few options, adapting down to 29mm you can get some cool flights on Mini Maggs with no hazmat from aerotech cases.

Loki (https://lokiresearch.com/secure/store.asp?groupid=831200410431019) has 14 38mm loads in non-cert/ L1 that require no haz mat fee.


Going L2 in 38mm certainly leaves many options. The Aerotech 720 case has many cool loads, and is very reasonably priced to entice certifications. There's also a 1080 and 1320 case but they won't easily fit in a mini magg. The Loki 740 case has 4 L2 loads and the 1200 has 5 (again the 1200 won't easily fit in a magg)


Personally, what I did was invest in 38mm hardware for L2 and I buy one big hazmat order a year to offset the cost.

A good option for you may be to get an aerotech 29/240 to fly L1, and a 38/720 to fly L2 stuff. Both are reasonably priced, and have many loads.
This advice is sound. On the same note, if you plan on flying a lot of L2/L3 motors, 75mm hardware will offer options from full K's to M's. So, one can conceivably get a wide variety of motors in all 3 levels from just 38mm and 75mm hardware.

On a separate note, most clubs out there have at least one person that you can borrow hardware from. You might want to check around and see if you can do that versus buying your own (or maybe one keeps a 38mm set and the other 54mm set, etc.).
 

Bat-mite

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Regarding HAZMAT fees -- there are two ways to potentially avoid them. The easiest is to join a club that is attended by a vendor and buy on site. The other two ways involved spending lots of money all at once. Many online vendors will offer free HAZMAT if you exceed a certain dollar amount, like "Buy $00 worth of motors and receive free HAZMAT shipping!"

Similarly, if there is no club near you with an onsite vendor, consider attending one big launch a year and making the trek. Buy a year's worth of motors on site, and use them up gradually.

In any case, have fun flying!
 

DavidMcCann

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+1 on Dave's Loki endorsement. You can have a boatload of MPR thru L2 fun with 38mm Loki.
My Favorite 2 cases are my Loki 38/120 and my Loki 38/1200. I need to work a 240 into the mix eventually, and for some I see that as more attractive than the 120. For L1 only, the 480 case is the perfect sweet spot. L1/ L2, I find the top/bottom case split works nicely, as I don't fly much in the middle. Either "just get it up" or "get it gone" If you're going to 5, may as well goto 10.
 

NateLowrie

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Regarding HAZMAT fees -- there are two ways to potentially avoid them. The easiest is to join a club that is attended by a vendor and buy on site. The other two ways involved spending lots of money all at once. Many online vendors will offer free HAZMAT if you exceed a certain dollar amount, like "Buy $00 worth of motors and receive free HAZMAT shipping!"

Similarly, if there is no club near you with an onsite vendor, consider attending one big launch a year and making the trek. Buy a year's worth of motors on site, and use them up gradually.

In any case, have fun flying!
Red Arrow Hobbies (http://www.redarrowhobbies.com) waives the hazmat fees on orders of $250+. That's not bad at all. If you can split the order with someone in the club it makes it more accessible.
 

woferry

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dford, I notice your location says Mojave Desert. Is that in CA or are you across the border? If you're in CA be aware that Loki's are not allowed to be sold/flown (or I think even possessed?) in this state, extra certification by the state fire marshal is required and Loki hasn't spent the extra money to do this step.

I would assume if you're in the Mojave Desert that ROC is one of your closer clubs, Bay Area Rocketry tends to be a (the?) vendor at their launches, and he sells both CTI and Aerotech cases & loads. If you pick them up at the site you don't have to pay any hazmat fees, though the BLM does charge a fee for purchases on their land (I think if you order from his website and request delivery at a launch that saves both Hazmat and BLM fees, just be sure to order several days in advance). With the shortage of CTI stock BAR was out of just about every CTI 38mm load up to about 5G or 6G a month ago, I believe he got a shipment since then though I'm not sure how big it was, I'll be in his trailer at the TCC launch (near Fresno) this Saturday so I won't know how well he's stocked until then.
 

Onebadhawk

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People wind up all over the place. Some certify and go back to flying G's. Some like flying as large a motor as they can.

In your case you have a few options, adapting down to 29mm you can get some cool flights on Mini Maggs with no hazmat from aerotech cases.

Loki (https://lokiresearch.com/secure/store.asp?groupid=831200410431019) has 14 38mm loads in non-cert/ L1 that require no haz mat fee.


Going L2 in 38mm certainly leaves many options. The Aerotech 720 case has many cool loads, and is very reasonably priced to entice certifications. There's also a 1080 and 1320 case but they won't easily fit in a mini magg. The Loki 740 case has 4 L2 loads and the 1200 has 5 (again the 1200 won't easily fit in a magg)


Personally, what I did was invest in 38mm hardware for L2 and I buy one big hazmat order a year to offset the cost.

A good option for you may be to get an aerotech 29/240 to fly L1, and a 38/720 to fly L2 stuff. Both are reasonably priced, and have many loads.
There's one thing Dave said I disagree with,, I don't think people are all over the place,,
I think it is most common for people to start with CTI or Aerotech,,
then go to snap ring hardware for it's quality and less cost of loads...
If you go with snap ring Loki in the first place you've skipped one heck of an expensive step altogether...
Take a look right now at the Loki 38 mm loads for their smaller cases, 120,, 240,, and 480..
Check the cost of the loads,, check cost per Ns,, and check the thrust curve with a comparable load from another manufacturer.....
If you do this you'll go Loki every time...
And this doesn't even take into account how impressed you're going to be with the hardware....

Teddy
 

dford

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This advice is sound. On the same note, if you plan on flying a lot of L2/L3 motors, 75mm hardware will offer options from full K's to M's. So, one can conceivably get a wide variety of motors in all 3 levels from just 38mm and 75mm hardware.

On a separate note, most clubs out there have at least one person that you can borrow hardware from. You might want to check around and see if you can do that versus buying your own (or maybe one keeps a 38mm set and the other 54mm set, etc.).
One of the reasons I am trying to get certified is only one guy at our new club is certified L1. He is getting L2 in September but I'm not one to rely on someone else. Point being I'd like to certify to L2 through networking at other clubs around Socal and have two L2s at our club.
He has casings to share BUT again I'm more the type to have my own and say I did it more on my own with my stuff.
 

Cl(VII)

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For what it is worth, if I started all over again, I would have gone Loki to start with. Now that I have nearly every AT case through 54 mm, I will probably start acquiring the Loki hardware.

Also, I would recommend skipping the adapter systems. They sound like a great idea, but I have the 38 set and for a variety of reasons ended up acquiring all the cases anyway. I would imagine most people do this too. Now the 75mm set has my attention. Those cases are real spendy.
 

dford

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dford, I notice your location says Mojave Desert. Is that in CA or are you across the border? If you're in CA be aware that Loki's are not allowed to be sold/flown (or I think even possessed?) in this state, extra certification by the state fire marshal is required and Loki hasn't spent the extra money to do this step.

I would assume if you're in the Mojave Desert that ROC is one of your closer clubs, Bay Area Rocketry tends to be a (the?) vendor at their launches, and he sells both CTI and Aerotech cases & loads. If you pick them up at the site you don't have to pay any hazmat fees, though the BLM does charge a fee for purchases on their land (I think if you order from his website and request delivery at a launch that saves both Hazmat and BLM fees, just be sure to order several days in advance). With the shortage of CTI stock BAR was out of just about every CTI 38mm load up to about 5G or 6G a month ago, I believe he got a shipment since then though I'm not sure how big it was, I'll be in his trailer at the TCC launch (near Fresno) this Saturday so I won't know how well he's stocked until then.
I am in California. Bay area rocketry is our vendor. He drops off our orders for us on his way to lucerne. I haven't tried to purchase hazmat motors and was unaware of the fee waiver.
I was thinking loki was out of question for california but I will probably pursue some 29s and more 38s with all the new info.
I lean towards scratch builds but I think I'll go with minnie for the cost, low altitude and cert. unless I find another deal on something tonight. Then build my own for much higher flights.

You all are awesome. Thank you very much
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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Another thing to consider is that if you are planning to cert, there are often cert specials --- buy the reload for your cert attempt, and get the case for free, or some other such deal. I got my CTI 5G 38mm case when I bought my motor for my L2 attempt (which I still have not done yet due to various reasons).
 

MikeyDSlagle

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When I was looking for hardware, I leaned toward the cases with the most loads. The Aerotech 29/240 offers H loads in their propellants and 38/360 offers H and I loads in all their propellants, including a sparky. Aerotech 240 Ns reloads are the same price in both 29 and 38.

Build the Magg for 38 and adapt down to 29 if you need too. I am scratch building my Lvl 1 cert rocket to save money...and it is gonna cost me more in the long run. But it's mine and my own design. I haven't even flown any of the cases yet and am wanting to get a Loki, but it will have to wait, between those two cases above I have 14 reloads to play with.

Mikey D
 

AfterBurners

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A lot of the rockets I have I switch between 29 and 38 to have that option. You can always buy an adaptor. Heck build the Min I Magg and use it for both your L1 and L2. Always go bigger...you can always drop down and fly on a budget. I just bought a 24/40 case to fly some smaller rockets. I can get 3 reloads for around $15-20 can't complain there.
 

grouch

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I love 29mm motors but there does not seem to be a whole lot of rockets that have 29mm motor mounts. Most popular is the 38mm for some reason. If you like cardboard rockets then this isn't much of an issue as you can fly both. 29mm is very economical because you can get the AT stuff shipped Haz free. Get a 180 and a 240 case and you are good to go. Add a CTI 3 grain case with a spacer and you'll have more motor options that any other 3 case set. If I were doing it over this is what I would do and avoid 38mm all together.
 

SCrocketfan

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As someone who did Jr. L1 on a Mini Magg adapted to 29mm, definitely feel free to adapt down on the Magg! I flew a CTI H123SK (small H at 173s) to about 900', 7 second delay was a bit long (5 is perfect with a small H), and flew several more H’s and one 29mm I before adding nose weight and mostly flying 38mm. Nose weight isn’t really needed (especially on something like a small H) but I found it to be a bit more stable with nose weight (9 oz bolt) on long 29mm and 38mm motors. The Magg will take pretty much any motor that fits, from a 29mm full G/H to a 38mm J.

For cases in California (I am too, mainly fly CTI and a bit of AT), my big question would be: do you have any other 29mm rockets you want to fly on the same hardware? That's why I chose 29mm initially. If you don't want to fly F's a 29mm 4G and 6XL with spacers (you can fly anything G and up in 29mm that way) would be great in CTI, or the AT 240 case has a ton of versatility from what I've heard, and it isn't hazmat, but since BAR carries CTI and AT hazmat isn't much of a concern.

In 38mm I find the 5 grain CTI case to be perfect-lots of propellents and some long burns, but it's worth it for the I540 and J290 alone! J290 in a Magg would be great for L2. The AT 720 case is also really nice for options if you go that route.

Oh and just as a warning :) I ended up with 29mm 3g, 4g, 6g, and 6XL and 38mm 3g, 5g and 6XL, as well as 54mm 2g and 4g and an AT 29/40-120 and 54/1280. As Davidmcann said, you end up flying a lot of certain case sizes (with or without spacers) and not a ton else, and that 38/5G and 29/3/4G are particular highlights for me.
 
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markkoelsch

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I am in California. Bay area rocketry is our vendor. He drops off our orders for us on his way to lucerne. I haven't tried to purchase hazmat motors and was unaware of the fee waiver.
I was thinking loki was out of question for california but I will probably pursue some 29s and more 38s with all the new info.
I lean towards scratch builds but I think I'll go with minnie for the cost, low altitude and cert. unless I find another deal on something tonight. Then build my own for much higher flights.

You all are awesome. Thank you very much
Loki is no go in California. The cost per motor to get through state testing I believe is this issue.
 

Nick@JET

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There's one thing Dave said I disagree with,, I don't think people are all over the place,,
I think it is most common for people to start with CTI or Aerotech,,
then go to snap ring hardware for it's quality and less cost of loads...
If you go with snap ring Loki in the first place you've skipped one heck of an expensive step altogether...
Take a look right now at the Loki 38 mm loads for their smaller cases, 120,, 240,, and 480..
Check the cost of the loads,, check cost per Ns,, and check the thrust curve with a comparable load from another manufacturer.....
If you do this you'll go Loki every time...
And this doesn't even take into account how impressed you're going to be with the hardware....

Teddy
If I look at burn times on Loki the are noticeably shorter than CTI, which is something to consider if you like longer burns. I want to go Loki, however I like longer burn motors so I gravitate towards CTI. Especially with my L3 plans - $400-800 I want the sucker to burn until I can't hear it anymore :)
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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BAR lists cert specials for both AT and CTI on the home page. http://bayarearocketry.com

If I were getting a Mini Magg for certifying both L1 and L2, I'd probably opt for a cert special for a 29 mm H for L1 and a 38 mm J for L2. If you go CTI on both cases and get 2 spacers for each, you'll have a huge range of 29 and 38 mm motor choices for a wide variety of rockets.
 

noffie79

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BAR lists cert specials for both AT and CTI on the home page. http://bayarearocketry.com

If I were getting a Mini Magg for certifying both L1 and L2, I'd probably opt for a cert special for a 29 mm H for L1 and a 38 mm J for L2. If you go CTI on both cases and get 2 spacers for each, you'll have a huge range of 29 and 38 mm motor choices for a wide variety of rockets.
+1.
 

DavidMcCann

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If I look at burn times on Loki the are noticeably shorter than CTI, which is something to consider if you like longer burns. I want to go Loki, however I like longer burn motors so I gravitate towards CTI. Especially with my L3 plans - $400-800 I want the sucker to burn until I can't hear it anymore :)
M900R is 6 seconds. They've got long burns in nearly every case..... and seemingly the same spread of times as CTI. I'm confused....
 
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