Whatever happened to...

[prowlerguy]

the 13mm -0 booster engines? I notice that Estes isn't making them anymore and they are de-certed (or soon to be). Why did they stop?

I managed to find one packet of A10-0T engines at a hobby shop that was going out of business, so I bought them, figuring I would use them sometime. Well, sometime was Sunday, when I launched my kit-bashed/repaired (new, longer body tube) X-Ray that I have dubbed the Stretch-Ray. I had an extra set of fins, so I decided to make it a two stage. That A10-0T kicked butt. Staging happened higher than I am used to, and I lost sight of the rocket completely. This is now one of my favorite rockets, and it kills me that I only have three more flights on it.

BRING BACK THE 13mm BOOSTERS!!!

 

[jflis]

yep, the whole rocketry community is sobbing the same story...

good motor, but then Estes doesn't make any multi-stage 13mm rockets...

let's hope they don't discontinue *18mm* multi-stage rockets...

 

[eugenefl]

If you're in need of A10-0T motors, check out <a href="https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3903&highlight=Ralph">THIS</a> thread on availability at Ralph's Hobbies. Ralph's is a local vendor in my area and an overall great guy. Tell him Eugene from Tampa sent you. I'm sure you can work a better deal than what's advertised in the thread I linked you to.

 

[powderburner]

Originally posted by jflis
good motor, but then Estes doesn't make any multi-stage 13mm rockets...

Seems like dropping this booster would be a foolish thing to do, because Estes could just as easily come out with a new kit next year (or the year after, or . . ) that needs this motor.

Then again, if there really truly was a sufficient demand/consumption to make it worthwhile, they would still be making and selling them!

In the mean time, has anyone tried modifying a regular A10T by scraping out the ejection and delay? (You never heard ME suggest THAT!)

 

[Micromeister]

Not a safe or wise suggestion powder! Especially with all the young members we have here! as an engineer I expected better!
Doing what you suggested voids you Nar insurance just so we're clear. Not to mention the potential for a mishap if the scraping is done to heavy handedly. This is as bad a suggestion as plugging motors with epoxy.
Do not alter your motors guys. It's not only a violation of every safety code there is.. it just isn't worth the time.

 

[graylensman]

How about those A-10-0P motors Estes makes for its new rocket car?

 

[powderburner]

Do you mean to ask, can they be unplugged to use as boosters?
I don't know if this can be done, or how difficult it would be. It also falls into the category of 'modified' motors.

BTW, Micromister is correct to warn you not to fart around with trying to modify the motors, I should not have mused-on about these sorts of ideas, it really really IS a not-very-smart thing to do. In the case of removing ejection and delay charges, this is further complicated by not knowing exactly how far to dig. Too shallow and you end up with a booster with a layer of delay on top, which does NOT help with the ignition of the upper stage. Dig too deeply and you will be removing part of the propellant itself, which reduces the delivered impulse and hurts your flight performance. Best to just leave it alone.

 

[shockwaveriderz]

I have several packs of a10-T and a3-0T left ...and no they aren't for sale....

I accidently gave a friend a a3-6T last week to burn.....

 

[cls]

San Antonio Hobby Shop in Mountain View, CA, still has a few packs of "Cobra" A10-0 motors. I bought a couple packs and am jealously hoarding them


speaking of lightweight -0 motors, I finally found some B6-0s. I like those for flying on short fields.


at the other end of the spectrum, what I really want is an E15-0 black powder motor.

 

[saxophone]

Really speaking of lightweight -0 motors, I really miss the
old Estes 1/2A6-0 18mm motors. They used to make them during
the 70s. I burned my last ones a few years ago. They were
handy for the middle stage of a 3-stage rocket on a small field.
Spectators always got a chuckle out of them.

I also miss the A8-0 motors.

 

[jflis]

Originally posted by saxophone
Really speaking of lightweight -0 motors, I really miss the
old Estes 1/2A6-0 18mm motors. They used to make them during
the 70s. I burned my last ones a few years ago. They were
handy for the middle stage of a 3-stage rocket on a small field.
Spectators always got a chuckle out of them.

I also miss the A8-0 motors.

I was getting ready to author this EXACT same reply, then i got to read your reply...

I still have a couple of tubes of 1/2A6-0 and A8-0 motors. they WERE great motors. It allowed you to explore multistage without need of a gigantic field.

loved 'em!

 

[shockwaveriderz]

I also agree...its 2 bad we no longer have 1/2A6-0,A3-0,A8-0,A10-0T so we could do small field multistaging....

B6-0/A8-5 is about the miminum configuration you can do...

as to the A10-PT, they are plugged so they can't ignite an upper stage...

 

[rokitflite]

Estes seems to be moving more and more towards "no-brainer" kits. Two stage and especially cluster models are becoming fewer and farther between. I was thrilled to see the Outlander and the Renegade kits they just came out with, but unfortunately these models do not sell well to the majority of the rocket buying customers. Our shops have the best sales on the 3 or 4 fins and a nose cone straight forward kits. I always keep a large stock of D12-0 and C6-0 motors on hand just in case they vanish soon!

 

[astronboy]

ESTES 2 staged 13mm kits were few and far between, even back inthe 1970's. I loved them though, still do!! If you search online, you should be able to find vendors with the A10-0T motor available.

The only thing I can think of as a way of getting this motor back, would be for a bunch of us to design 13mm 2 stagers, even basic ones, and send them into ESTES 'Design of the Quarter' contest.

Not that it will make it happen, but it is the only way to get ESTES to notice that folks are wanting the A10-0T.

Now, if we could only get the B14-0 back.... THAT was a BOOSTER!!

Fred

 

[rokitflite]

Hey Fred!
I thought I recognized that address at the bottom of the screen! I bought that Arcas from you a few weeks ago! It has been placed, with honor, into the bottomless collection. Are you still looking to sell that other one? (yeah, I should have gotten it when you first offered it to me)

I agree, one of my favorite kits is the Beta, that thing goes forever with an A10-0T in the booster. Luckily I use a streamer in the top stage!!!

 

[Micromeister]

A friend of mine gave me 2 full cases of A3-0Ts's awhile back, I'm still flying them.
my Range box is full of cool old booster motors, anyone remember 1/2A6-0s shorts.. I still have 3 of the 1/2A6-0's and about 8 or 10 A8-0's.. Really sad they're no longer available

 

[kelltym88]

Originally posted by rokitflite
Estes seems to be moving more and more towards "no-brainer" kits. Two stage and especially cluster models are becoming fewer and farther between. I was thrilled to see the Outlander and the Renegade kits they just came out with, but unfortunately these models do not sell well to the majority of the rocket buying customers. Our shops have the best sales on the 3 or 4 fins and a nose cone straight forward kits. I always keep a large stock of D12-0 and C6-0 motors on hand just in case they vanish soon!

Once again I say Estes should set up a special order area and produce kits(or engines) that people special order. At todays prices what would an Interceptor cost, maybe $19. Add $15 for a special order, and viola $34 for an Interceptor. Oh, you want some A10-T and B14-0 add $20 and for $54 you got nostalgia again. A heck of a lot cheaper than ebay. Shoot, they got all the stuff to make them, they'd make a killing.

 

[graylensman]

Originally posted by rokitflite
I agree, one of my favorite kits is the Beta, that thing goes forever with an A10-0T in the booster. Luckily I use a streamer in the top stage!!!

I built and flew a couple of those back in the day. That was a great rocket. Upon commencing BAR activities, I cloned a Midget. That's another one that would go like mad! 1st launch of it was an A10-0T/A4-3T stack. I lost it at first, but then sighted it as it came down from a LONNNG way up.

The joy of having kids in your recovery crew: you don't have to cajole them into tracking the booster - it's the part of the rocket they can follow!

 

[astronboy]

Oh, those booster T motors!! I have two carefully hoarded packs each of A3-0Ts and 1/2A3-0Ts. I will save two for my collection, but will use the rest --- very sparingly. The 1/2As are almost 1/2 empty casing!! They are also in the blue casing, during the time that ESTES was producing T motors for Centuri.

 

[astronboy]

And here are the 'diamond' boxes

 

[n3tjm]

The plug on A10-PT motors can be easily removed, but that will be modifing a motor. You would not get away with using them at a NAR or TRA launch... but then again, neither would you be able to use a A10-0T... those motors are no longer certified . And I have 2 packs left .

 

[powderburner]

n3tjm says that the plug could be removed (and I refer to that statement purely on a theoretical level, I am not advocating that anyone actually DO that) which leads me to the conclusion that Estes is basically continuing to build A10T motors.
If that is true, the only thing that currently stops Estes from selling A10Ts (in addition to plugged versions) is probably a business decision based on sales. Perhaps, despite our high level of interest here on TRF, no one else is/was buying A10T motors. And if they aren't moving the merchandise, it becomes a business choice whether to discontinue an unprofitable product. I can't blame Estes, if this is the case. They are not here to subsidize our hobby.

I really like kelltym88's idea of a special order surcharge. If it was a one-time per order set-up charge, regardless of the number of motors ordered, it might not be practical for individuals to place occasional orders. But it would sure be a great deal for a vendor to order a couple hundred (thousand?) motors at a time and then sell them for a small premium.

 

[graylensman]

I would never EVER consider modifying a motor... i know the limits of my dumb luck.

On the other hand, my wife might encourage it... i've got a pretty good life insurance policy...

 

[shockwaveriderz]

powderburner:
I agree with you about it being a "business" decision not to produce A10-0T when they still make A10-3T and A10-PT...same with the A3-4T, but no A3-0T,A3-2T or A3-6T motors.... same with A8-0, they still have A8-3/5...

I have always wondered how Estes makes engines in terms of batches or quantities and how much they have sitting around in a warehouse before being shipped? I wonder if they are doing Just In Time manufacturing? Is that even possible in making BP motors? How much more time or machinery time does it take to add a delay train or not add a delay train?

what is the business decision that makes them build some but not all?

The solution of course is to make all -0 motors.....A3-0T,A8-0,A10-0,B4-0,B6-0 etc and then sell delay kits that you can purchase separately and allow the modeler to glue in his delay of choice at the field..

While this is technically LEGAL, only people 18 of years of older would be allowed to do this legally...so its not really an option either...

The only real solution is to get somebody like quest to manufacture engines that neither Estes not Quest have....and I am not impressed with the quality of the Quest engines....

Its too bad that Estes is basically a monopoly when it comes to BP engines..... and today's estes is NOT teh Estes that Vern estes or even Damon Corp once ran.....its a toy company now...not a hobby products company....sad...

 

[graylensman]

As it has been pointed out, Estes made the business decision to stop making -0T motors because they had no kit for it... but, maybe, if they did make a kit, there might be demand.


...anyone know how well those rocket cars are selling?

 

[Micromeister]

I had a discussion with Estes factory Rep a few years ago about the Pee poor quality control apparent on there Solar Ignitors, and the amount or lack of pyrogen on these igniter.

We had a very good talk about a range of fixes and how the manufactruing process goes... I'm sure everyone has noticed your igniters haven't gotten a bit better in the last 3 years
The long and short of it is We users steady motor users are what drives the decessions, if you use lots of A8-3's that's what they make.
Over the last few years Booster motor purchases dropped off dramatically (this info is 3 years old!) So a reduction in the number and impulse of booster motors was in order. Dollar and cents. buy motors.. they make the motors... let the demand drop.. so sorry...good by.

 

[astronboy]

Well, a drop in sales would do it.

It did not help that there was only 1, count it, -1- two stage 13mm kit for many years....

ESTES has brought back motors in the past... the A8-5 is a good example.

Again, I say, let's swamp ESTES with designs for 2 staged 13 mm models. they are running a 'design of the quarter' contest, and all of us should be able to design even a simple 2 stager...

 

[Micromeister]

I totally agree Fred!
If we're building staged models they may look at bringing back the -0T's but I doubt it. we'ed have to have a whale of a lot of boost needs, so 13mm clusters/stages wouldn't hurt
One more thought. I don't remember the astronomic number of motors they sell in a year... millions of packs...at the time a recall it took me back a good bit.. then I remembered they sell WORLD wide. So flooding the company with designs (Staged, Clustered and both) simply may not be enough to bring back the motor(s) we're looking for but I is worth a shot!

 

[bsexton]

Has anyone called or emailed Estes recently about the likelihood of producing a 13 mm booster engine either as a standard product or special order? My experience has been their customer service is pretty good. Maybe they would be willing to listen.

Just a thought...

 

[cls]

Has anyone called ... Estes recently about ... special order?

interesting idea ... I wonder what the minimum lot size would be, for them to tool up for a run. I think if the answer is "a few thousand" then we could probably move the entire run. if the answer is "tens of thousands" then forget it!


would you be willing to pay a premium for these "odd" motors? say $3 instead of $2?

would you be willing to buy these motors even though they are not NAR/CAR/TRA certified? not certed means you can't fly them at a club launch ...