What type of engineering requires the highest mathematical skills?

[Tronman]

My stepdaughter is enrolled as a freshman at MIT and really loves math. She wants to major in chemical engineering, but I'm afraid that it may not satisfy her love for mathematics. I think she has a year to decide on a major and she may change her mind during that time. Would aerospace engineering be more appropriate for a math lover?

 

[dave carver]

There's an incredable shortage of mechanical engineers and it's a situation that gets worse every year. They are among the first hired out of college at premium wages. Aerospace engineering is an off-shoot with a fancy name and there are a LOT of layed-off aerospace engineers right now....a situation not likely to change in the near future.

Designing pump systems might not be as glamourous as a space-thing but it's hi-paying and less prone to political schnanagines.

 

[ClayD]

There's an incredable shortage of mechanical engineers and it's a situation that gets worse every year. They are among the first hired out of college at premium wages. Aerospace engineering is an off-shoot with a fancy name and there are a LOT of layed-off aerospace engineers right now....a situation not likely to change in the near future.

Designing pump systems might not be as glamourous as a space-thing but it's hi-paying and less prone to political schnanagines.

for a bit of extra work.. most are balled up to the combined AME these days...

I think computer engineering, is the most mathmaticaly challenging.
Any physics engineering, is an old discipline, chemical and computers dont rely so much on the OLD stuff.. So it can get a little hairbrained in my opinionthus, its much harder to understand.

 

[new2hpr]

I'd have to agree with the above posts. Almost all the math in engineering today is done with computers. I know of no one who does their own calculations (well, maybe some guys doing modelling in MathCAD and MatLAB). If I thought the industry had much of a future, data storage had a lot of use for real math in the recording channels development. Communications is probably the best (or most math-intensive) EE area now.

I haven't been involved in aerospace, though. Perhaps CJL will give his opinion (though it would be from the grad student perspective rather than the job market).

Math is cool stuff, if you can find an employer willing to let you use it. Most would rather you let the computer do it while you work scheduling, resource loading, project tracking, etc. Bleah!:eyeroll:
-Ken

 

[xenon]

From the perspective of her undergrad at MIT, if she likes math and wants to take a lot of math courses, Aerospace engineering isn't going to leave her much flexibility. I think we are tied for the most degree requirements at the institute (chemical engineering is by chance the other).

She is a 2015 I assume? If so, she'll probably change her mind a few times before April, and have a chance to talk to a LOT of people about it.

-Andrew (Rising senior in Aerospace Engineering at MIT)

EDIT: We aren't allowed to recruit until Sept 2, but is she interested in rocketry? The rocket team has some interesting projects this year

 

[cavalledor]

During her first year she will have plenty of opportunities to check out all the majors and find one that fits well with her.

I know a lot of people my year who came in thinking they would do one major, and then settle on something completely different at the end of the year. Plus most of the majors at MIT require at least some sort of high level math so she has plenty of options.

I personally settled on Aero-Astro, which like Andrew said happens to be tied with Chemical Engineering and one of the versions of Electrical/Computer engineering for the highest number of credits for graduation. But really it isn't all that bad...

Anyway she should be able to find the major thats right for her, and the first year advisers are great at offering advice on the topic.

-Christian [another rising senior at MIT]

 

[dixontj93060]

I did my undergrad at Purdue in Electrical Engineering with a Computer Design concentration. Quite a bit of math, but not enough for me so I added electives in Math & Physics (2 to 3 higher level classes each) which I enjoyed and were a breeze for me so they continued to drive my high GPA. I don't know the MIT curriculum, but your stepdaughter may be able to implement the same strategy regardless of her chosen major.

 

[alexzogh]

Computer engineering - specialize in exotic large data set analysis.

The math is extensive, and highly theoretical. Map/Reduce, structured parallelism, hierarchical scatter/gather algorithms and the like are the new frontiers in applied mathematics that didn't exist 10 years ago. Makes traditional statistics look like childs play.

Requires not only a love of math, but an incredible imagination to fundamentally rethink how we analyze and use data in real time, at a volume never seen before.

The person with these skills can write their own ticket for the next 30 years.

One of my younger employees jokingly asked me the other day why Facebook always shows him erectile dysfunction ads. My answer: bad math.

 

[cjl]

The engineering discipline with the most math is pretty easy to state: Applied Math. That having been said, at least at my school, you can definitely pursue advanced mathematics with just about any degree choice. Aerospace, at the undergrad level, doesn't have that high of mathematical requirements (just the standard 3 semester calc sequence plus linear algebra and diffeq), but I know several people (in multiple majors, not just aerospace) who enjoyed math and pursued an applied math minor by choice. That allowed them to get substantial amounts of advanced mathematics while still getting the engineering degree of their choice.

Aerospace in grad school has required a substantial amount more math however - advanced numerical methods and tensor math have been used extensively in my graduate classes. From what I can tell, in general, graduate engineering courses are substantially more theoretical and mathematical than undergrad, so perhaps a masters would be a good idea if she enjoys math? Of course, this is a decision that's quite a ways away for a freshman, so there's quite a bit of time there.

As for job prospects? Based on the number of my classmates (who decided not to go on to grad school) who have jobs, it doesn't seem bad for aerospace at the moment. Of course, Colorado has a ton of aerospace, so that definitely helps us, but even so, it certainly seems like the graduates haven't had trouble getting jobs.

Of course, the most important part of chosing the major is for her to find something she enjoys. If she likes chemical engineering, by all means she should go for it. Something like an applied math minor is always an option if she enjoys math (although I don't know if it will be all that helpful to chemical engineering...), and the engineering workload is a lot more bearable for a major you love.

 

[Biff]

Land Surveying is math intensive, or at least they made me go through differential equations Can't say I've ever used it but you can get pretty esoteric with geodesy and GPS and matrix adjustments.

 

[Tronman]

Wow, thanks for all the great information! We talked about it on the way to the airport this morning and she seems stuck on chemical engineering. Part of the reason is that she believes it provides the highest salary. I think she really needs to interact with the other students for the next year to get a better idea of their disciplines. She has plenty of time change her mind.

A math minor sounds like a good suggestion too. When she gets back from her trip next week, I want to have her read all of your suggestions. Thanks again!

 

[Scotty Dog]

Seems in todays world..some people that stand in front of a cash register think they have higher math skills than a rocket scientist.:y:

 

[dixontj93060]

Land Surveying is math intensive, or at least they made me go through differential equations Can't say I've ever used it but you can get pretty esoteric with geodesy and GPS and matrix adjustments.

Uh, OK, Biff, nice try, but I'm siding with Alexzogh on this one.

[YOUTUBE]hc7FvjZDT8c[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Tronman]

From the perspective of her undergrad at MIT, if she likes math and wants to take a lot of math courses, Aerospace engineering isn't going to leave her much flexibility. I think we are tied for the most degree requirements at the institute (chemical engineering is by chance the other).

She is a 2015 I assume? If so, she'll probably change her mind a few times before April, and have a chance to talk to a LOT of people about it.

-Andrew (Rising senior in Aerospace Engineering at MIT)

EDIT: We aren't allowed to recruit until Sept 2, but is she interested in rocketry? The rocket team has some interesting projects this year

She is a 2015. She was on campus this summer for Interface and is pretty much settled in at McCormick. And she does have an interest in rocketry, although her interest is in its infancy. She has expressed an interest in the rocketry team. I just hope she has enough time to get involved. English is her 2nd language, so she may feel pressure to concentrate almost exclusively on academics. I hope that's not the case.

 

[bobkrech]

Her major is a choice your daughter needs to make for herself.

Having said that, Math knowledge is important for all engineering and science disiplines. Several folks stated that no one has to do math calculations anymore because they have simulation programs. That is something this grey hair has observed and it is a big problem in today's enginneering and sicientic community. If you don't know enough math to do some rudimentary calculations to check the simulation, you have no idea if it is spitting out the right answers, or plain old garbage. With a reasonable knowledge and science, it's fairly easy to bound the limits of a rather complicated problem, and then if you get a solution outside the bounds, you know there's a problem with the simulation.

Another instance where math knowledge is important is in algorithm development for rapid decision making. There are a number of differential equation solvers that number cruch for billions and billions of computer cycles, and if one boundary assumption is incorrect or local minimums or maximums exist, you can get wrong anwers afer hours or days of calculating a single case. If you know the basics physics equations for the problem, you can frequently fit well thought out data sets to equations of the proper form and come up with a close analytical answer. If the problem is more complicated, you can often come up with a correction factor equation to make the first approximate more accurate, and in very complicated system, a correction factor equation for the correction factor.

The following is a case were this is important.

Below are several laser weapon denonstration videos that have been made public over the past 2 years showing the USAF ATL (Airborne Tactical Laser in a C-130) attacking a truck and a USN Raytheon Phylanx Radar Guided Laser take down a drone. The pretest target planning traditionally involves running numerically intensive computer codes to evaluate targeting, and the results are quite specific to a given encounter scenerio, and laser. If you use a different laser power or beam quality has changed or not performing according to specifications, the predictions will be wrong.

[YOUTUBE]EUCDRRm7d_w[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]IyPaV6tfksE[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]fbzrdq0F-a4[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]rTpP412fM8U[/YOUTUBE]

Our company produced an excel spreadsheet for instaneous damage predicitons for any target to make a fire/no-fire decision in real time.

If you obtain a set of material properties and have carefully conducted sets of laboratory laser interaction tests for a variety of materials, metals, composites plastic, etc. with measured physical properties, and you know how to develop algorithms based on physics, you can predict and watch the development of a hole on a top plate and underlying second plate for any laser and encounter scenerio in a simple excel spreadsheet with a sliding time cursor. You can change the laser power, intensity and beam quality with sliders as well, and the simulation will be correct. Only with the knowledge of math and physics is it possilbe to develop the proper algorithms to make the simulation universal and generic.

Bob

 

[bjphoenix]

I'm a structural engineer and we do a lot of our own calculations by hand. We have computer programs to help with some of the work, and of course we do a lot with AutoCAD and Revit. Our work is all based on differential calculus so if you go past the undergraduate level you will get into that. And if you want to specialize in dynamics or vibration, there is even more math there.

I used to think that aerospace engineering had more elaborate math, but it seems that their analysis of forces and stresses is less elaborate than what we do. One of my co-workers left structural engineering and went back to school to study dynamics and acoustics, and ended up working in the aerospace industry. He said that the engineering that they did was a lot less elaborate than what he did as a structural engineer. But I still wonder if you got into aerodynamic simulations if it wouldn't be more involved.

Also I wonder if electrical engineering uses pretty advanced math. I had a roommate that was an electrical engineer and it seems that some of the concepts of semiconductors and circuits use some pretty advanced math. I don't know if they use that math on a daily basis, maybe it was just used to explain the basis for how things work.

Mechanical engeering as mentioned above is a branch of engineering that uses the least amount of math. It is all about determining what brand of pump to put where, and how to connect wires to it, and so forth. Or the mechanical engineers that we work with are involved in determining what size air conditioner for a building and how big the ducts need to be. It is essential work and I think they get paid well for it, but right now that industry is hurting. My own industry is just about shut down. Maybe 1/3 of engineering companies have enough work to do well, the rest are hurting and barely limping along. Every company in my area has had layoffs, and anybody coming into our job market is not getting any offers. I know several people that have had to move to the middle east to work for big construction companies there. It seems that for a long time people have been claiming that there was a shortage of engineers and we needed to entice people to go to college in engineering. Apparently that worked and now the market is flooded with engineers. There aren't many projects in our area but when a project begins it seems that there are dozens and dozens of companies that try to get the project. One company gets the project and the rest do without.

 

[sam_midkiff]

Also I wonder if electrical engineering uses pretty advanced math. I had a roommate that was an electrical engineer and it seems that some of the concepts of semiconductors and circuits use some pretty advanced math. I don't know if they use that math on a daily basis, maybe it was just used to explain the basis for how things work.

I'm a computer engineering professor in an electrical engineering department. The EEs use a lot of continuous math, including statistics. The CEs use more discrete math. If she likes math she should major in what she wants to, and pick up a math minor or double-major on the side. Having more math never hurts. We have another prof here that basically has a math background, and she comes up with new, and good, ways of looking at things.

 

[MarkII]

I'm not sure which kind of engineering requires the most mathematical knowledge, but I'm pretty sure I know which kind requires the least!

 

[Highpowerrocketyahoo]

Get crazy. Take combinatorics. You'll miss algebra real fast. Lol

 

[Sooner Boomer]

My stepdaughter is enrolled as a freshman at MIT and really loves math. She wants to major in chemical engineering, but I'm afraid that it may not satisfy her love for mathematics. I think she has a year to decide on a major and she may change her mind during that time. Would aerospace engineering be more appropriate for a math lover?

Right now, I'm working at OU Chemical Engineering. There's a lot of calculus in the core requirements for all engineering fields. ChemE also has subjects like Momentum of Heat, flow designs, etc. I have also worked in the School of Industrial Engineering. Lots of statistics to analyse situations in Human Factors and Operations Research. OR also requires a lot of programming. But for the absolute MOST math, Engineering Physics https://www.ou.edu/content/coe/ephysics.html has them all beat

 

[cjl]

Right now, I'm working at OU Chemical Engineering. There's a lot of calculus in the core requirements for all engineering fields. ChemE also has subjects like Momentum of Heat, flow designs, etc. I have also worked in the School of Industrial Engineering. Lots of statistics to analyse situations in Human Factors and Operations Research. OR also requires a lot of programming. But for the absolute MOST math, Engineering Physics https://www.ou.edu/content/coe/ephysics.html has them all beat

Do you not have an applied math major?

(Ephys is definitely up there in the math requirements, to be sure)

 

[jderimig]

Mechanical engeering as mentioned above is a branch of engineering that uses the least amount of math. It is all about determining what brand of pump to put where, and how to connect wires to it, and so forth.

This has to be one of the dumbest statements I have read in this forum in a long long time.

 

[powderburner]

If you love math that much, get a math degree.

Speaking as an aerospace engineering grad with 35 yrs in the industry, yes, we use a lot of math. No, we don't have time to sit down and do a bunch of 'deriving' solutions. In engineering you generally don't need a mathematically perfect solution anyway, you are just trying to get something close (there will be so many other non-optimum aspects to just about any project that it is kinda pointless to make one tiny portion of the answer come out perfect, and when management gets hold of the whole thing.....) Most of the math I use is already programmed into some 'approved' process or procedure, and I am not supposed to monkey with the guts of the software even if I have an improvement to make (that's a different bunch of guys who take care of that)

I would have to recommend electrical or mechanical engineering. Those degrees will lead to MANY more places to work, places to advance, fields to branch out into.

If you are looking into aero engineering because you think the pay is better, that might be the way it was 30-40-50 years ago but not anymore. These days, management wants to hire 'the best' but only wants to pay average salaries, lays the engineers off whenever it is convenient (for the company), and then thinks they can hire us back any time they want off of any street corner. Add to that, that our congress is trying to balance the budget by chopping defense, that it is darn near impossible these days to find a project (at any company) that is growing, that working on a defense project (which is most of aero engineering) is socially unfashionable these days. Aerospace is about the last engineering recommendation I would make to a kid entering college.

Most of everything we buy already has electronics and computers buried inside it, to help it run optimally and to make the user interfaces (the 'on' button) more usable. Electrical engineering will be more important than ever in our near future, as more products are designed with electrical controls and built-in brains, many even with A.I. to 'know' when you will want to use it and remember your favorite settings, and all the rest.

Mech E is only a half-step behind. Someone has to design all the new products out of new materials using new manufacturing techniques. Even if we outsource the actual production to Antarctica, the company that puts its name on the front of the product will be using engineers to do the design work.

The only time I would recommend aero E to someone is if you just wet yourself over airplanes and missiles, if you just HAVE to be in the middle of this stuff, if you have lived and breathed airplanes since you started walking. You are going to need to have a love of aerospace to be able to last through an entire career of the chicken-stuff and fickle project funding that comes with it.

 

[BsSmith]

Another thing to remember is that just because you have a degree in one type of engineering, it doesn't mean that you will be working in that type of engineering. When I was working at NASA over the summer, I was suprised at the amount of employees that worked like this. One of my mentors has a degree in chemical engineering and works as an aerospace engineer.

I am going to college next year to study aerospace engineering. Depending on if I get a co-op and how far I go into graduate school, I will be in college for 5 to 8 years. With this, I am hoping that the economy is restored by the time that I get out of school and places are hiring again. However, I can't be entirely sure about this, so I am planning to either minor or double major in mechanical engineering as well.

 

[bjphoenix]

This has to be one of the dumbest statements I have read in this forum in a long long time.

I've worked with a lot of mechanical engineers in the past 30+ years so I do know more than a little about it. I also took mechanical engineering courses in college.

 

[MarkII]

I'm not sure which kind of engineering requires the most mathematical knowledge, but I'm pretty sure I know which kind requires the least!

In my case, I'm talking about knucklehead engineering. The kind that I practice.

 

[cjl]

I've worked with a lot of mechanical engineers in the past 30+ years so I do know more than a little about it. I also took mechanical engineering courses in college.

That doesn't make the statement correct. I would say that at best, that statement is a rather severe mischaracterization of mechanical engineers, and it certainly demonstrates that you do not know the breadth or depth that the mechanical engineering discipline covers. That statement is about as wrong as a statement could possibly be. In other words, I'm with jderimig on this one.

(Note: I'm not saying that your statement isn't an accurate description of the job of some mechanical engineers. I'm saying that it is quite far from a description of the mathematics or effort involved in a mechanical engineering degree, and it is also quite far from an accurate description of what a competent mechanical engineer is capable of)

 

[Highpowerrocketyahoo]

My brother in law has a masters in mech E specializing in lean process manufacturing...we work for the same company...I love the guy, even if he ties his shoes together on accident sometimes...;-)

 

[bjphoenix]

that statement is a rather severe mischaracterization of mechanical engineers

Go up to the top of this thread and read post #2. What kind of advanced math does it take to design a pump system? Not that it doesn't take a lot of knowledge and experience to produce a properly functioning system, but it doesn't take a lot of math.

And then there are the mechanical engineers that design air conditioning systems. They have to determine whether to use discrete units, split system, geothermal, water cooled, air cooled, not a single integral or partial derivative in this. How many people will be in this room, and in the next room, and so on. Now look in the catalog to pick a unit that provides the right BTUH and CFM and you're done.

I've known hundreds and hundreds of mechanical engineers, and only one did something other than the above. They do seem to do pretty well financially though. In our field my specialization mostly only works on new construction, and most clients think we are a dime a dozen so we don't get paid very much. In today's economy there just isn't any work to be had. Mechanical engineers work on new construction AND lots of renovation, so when the economy is bad and owners decide to renovate their old building vs. building a new one, they still hire mechanical engineers. And they also work with them a lot because everybody worries about how well the lights and toilets and air conditioners work. They just take for granted that the building won't fall on their heads.

 

[jsdemar]

This has to be one of the dumbest statements I have read in this forum in a long long time.

I have to agree, but it may be his limited observation of the ME's he's worked with. Just as in other fields of engineering, many jobs don't require much traditional engineering (or applied math), just selecting components and doing integration.

Electrical Engineering has the broadest variety of concentrations (as can be seen by the number of IEEE professional members and sub groups). Some of the EE concentrations are the most math-intensive: electromagnetics, digital signal processing, and non-linear controls and optimal estimation. These are usually at the grad level but may start in an undergrad curriculum at a good engineering school.

In mechanical engineering, heat transfer and aerodynamics are very math intensive, but as others have mentioned, a great deal of the work is done with simulation tools that hide the math.

Those with dual degrees in ME or EE plus computer science can make the highest salaries developing the software tools. An applied math degree with a minor in CS is the next best thing if you want to work for the simulation companies. But, those jobs are few and very selective. For the best chance to work in a math-intesive job with continuing future demand, go with EE with concentrations in DSP, wireless comm systems, and statistical information processing. Make sure you know how to write software. And speak an Indian or Chinese dialect.