# What is this? (Cold power?)

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#### RocketFeller

##### Well-Known Member

I found this in a box of old Estes stuff my neighbor gave me. It is smaller than 18mm, maybe 16.5mm or so in diameter. I don't plan to do anything with it, just curious.

#### Kruegon

##### Well-Known Member
That is a 1970's Estes or Vashon cold power engine. It's designed to utilize R-12 Freon as a compressed gas propellant. Currently, there are no known equivalent substitutes, but a few people have found some "acceptable" substitutes. I'm currently working to try to build and launch one of these myself.

Very few people will even bother with these now days. I'm kind of a glutton for punishment. I may find that I waste a lot of time and get very disappointing results.

If you decide you want to part with it, let me know. I'd buy it just to add to my ability to experiment farther.

#### RocketFeller

##### Well-Known Member
I thought so, but I didn't see anything just like it on the inter webs, probably just didn't search the right terms. It is also odd that it isn't a full 18mm diameter. I have no real use for it, if you want to send me a stamped self-addressed envelope it's yours. I messaged you on Facebook, if you are interested I will give you my address.

That is a 1970's Estes or Vashon cold power engine. It's designed to utilize R-12 Freon as a compressed gas propellant. Currently, there are no known equivalent substitutes, but a few people have found some "acceptable" substitutes. I'm currently working to try to build and launch one of these myself.

Very few people will even bother with these now days. I'm kind of a glutton for punishment. I may find that I waste a lot of time and get very disappointing results.

If you decide you want to part with it, let me know. I'd buy it just to add to my ability to experiment farther.

#### Mugs914

##### "A crummy commercial..!!??"
Hi Dan,

That is a Cold Power engine, but not one designed for rocket type flight. That motor is used for either the Cold Power rocket gliders (XS-1 or Shrike) from Vashon and Estes or the Estes Land Rocket rocket cars. There is no provision for recovery deployment or remote launch on that motor.

If you can post a picture of the inside of the nozzle it would be easy to determine which it is; the actual hole was bigger in the Land Rocket version.

If Kruegon decides to pass, I'd be happy to buy it!

Neat find!

#### Kruegon

##### Well-Known Member
What did I do? Start a cold power revival? Not complaining, just interesting.

Burn ban? We don't worry about no burn ban. Our rockets are cool. Down right cold. Ok cold powered anyway.

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#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
TRF Supporter
What did I do? Start a cold power revival? Not complaining, just interesting.

Burn ban? We don't worry about no burn ban. Our rockets are cool. Down right cold. Ok cold powered anyway.
Kruegon... Chill! Those rockets were cool (except for the ozone layer eating part). Once that was discovered, sales just froze.

Of course I realize that I'm going to be getting some icy stares here.

#### Kruegon

##### Well-Known Member
Yes, but if we can make them viable again, there may just be a true revival. After all, this is the age of alternative fuels, right?

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
TRF Supporter
Yes, but if we can make them viable again, there may just be a true revival. After all, this is the age of alternative fuels, right?
Then all the cool kids will want them.

#### Kruegon

##### Well-Known Member
These jokes are cold. Just plain cold, man.

#### RocketFeller

##### Well-Known Member
It'll be on its way to Alabama in a few days. I hope you can figure out a way to make it go!

#### Kruegon

##### Well-Known Member
I swear on my honor as a BAR, it will work. I cannot, however, speak to how much effective it will be at first.

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
TRF Supporter
These jokes are cold. Just plain cold, man.

You know I value our friendship, I wasn't intending to put a chill on it. You do know that I'm an incorrigible punster (I need no Incorrigiment), and there is a snowball's chance in Hell that I can change that.

#### DeWain

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
This Feller remembers the cold power rockets back in the late 70's... but I never had one. I am considering making conventional (BP) powered clones though. It would be great if we could have a cold powered revival (with ozone-friendly propellant of course).

#### DeWain

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I just realized that my user name doesn't have my last name... it is Feller. (And yes, my first name actually does have a stray capital letter in the middle.)

#### RocketFeller

##### Well-Known Member
Do you have Swiss ancestors? Maybe we're tenth cousins...

I just realized that my user name doesn't have my last name... it is Feller. (And yes, my first name actually does have a stray capital letter in the middle.)

#### cerving

##### Owner, Eggtimer Rocketry
TRF Supporter
A Vashon Valkyrie-1 was my first model rocket, I got it for Christmas when I was 12. You didn't have to be 14 to buy the RP-100 Freon propellant in CA like you did with BP motors. I used to launch at my Jr High school field. I had a few of them over the years, sadly I no longer have one. If you got the electric launch plug (which basically was held in by a piece of wire that melted when you put a 6V battery to it) you could stand back and see the cloud of vapor that it left on the ground, it was very cool. I've thought of rolling my own CP motor and using "canned air" (which has a slightly lower vapor pressure than R12), but it's a "someday" project.

#### LW Bercini

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
TRF member Leo had a quite respectable cold-power flight at NSL this year. Drop him a line and ask what he used for propellant.

#### tab28682

##### Well-Known Member
I built and flew the Estes Shark cold power rocket around 1973-74.

Three flights. First time worked as advertised. Cool....literally!

Second and third flights, the little rubber bumps that were suppose to deflate and allow the spring to eject the chute must not have worked, as there was no chute ejection. Been a while, but seem to remember that it was very humid and the model was getting frosted around the motor area, perhaps enough to interfere with ejection.

Rocket got shorter each time.

Put it on the shelf and went back to normal Estes motors. The cold power unit disappeared over the years.

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#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
TRF Supporter
Oh cool! This thread is heating up again.

I built and flew the Estes Shark cold power rocket around 1973-74.

Three flights. First time worked as advertised. Cool....literally!

Second and third flights, the little rubber bumps that were suppose to deflate and allow the spring to eject the chute must not have worked, as there was no chute ejection. Been a while, but seem to remember that it was very humid and the model was getting frosted around the motor area, perhaps enough to interfere with ejection.

Rocket got shorter each time.

Put it on the shelf and went back to normal Estes motors. The cold power unit disappeared over the years.

So, are you saying that initially they'd do fahrenheit, but over time that would go down by degrees?

#### Kruegon

##### Well-Known Member
Ok. Things are looking up. I have a lead on a possible propellant. Leo shows one that looks nearly perfect, however, I cannot seem to locate that brand anywhere. I'm going to have to investigate the other I found.

Next I need to figure out a fueling method, possibly. The fueling valve they supply does not seem like it would connect to modern propellant canisters. I could be wrong and I seriously hope I am. A quick test will fill in the questions.

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
TRF Supporter
Ok. Things are looking up. I have a lead on a possible propellant. Leo shows one that looks nearly perfect, however, I cannot seem to locate that brand anywhere. I'm going to have to investigate the other I found.

Next I need to figure out a fueling method, possibly. The fueling valve they supply does not seem like it would connect to modern propellant canisters. I could be wrong and I seriously hope I am. A quick test will fill in the questions.
Leo (IINM) splits his time between the US, and Germany, he may have resources not available to the US.

#### Kruegon

##### Well-Known Member
The brand propellant his post shows is a common brand of paint supplies in the US. I believe it's even a US based company. I just can't seem to locate it. But it may not be a loss. I'll be ordering the other brand I found next weekend. It will be interesting to see how much progress I can make on this. I'm doing a lot of research on the old kits. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a few more various motors for testing. Depending on what I can acquire, I may look at a cluster. There's still so many unknowns for this until I actually do the build. Very old tech, but it's brand new to me. Exciting.

#### dpower

##### Well-Known Member
So, hypothetically, if a fellow had an old Cold Power set, and had some R-12 cans with flat tops, could those be made to work with the Cold Power launcher that is designed to screw on to a can?

Source?

#### rharshberger

Actually the EPA fines can be up to $37,500 if the .pdf I read from EPA is applicable to an individual releasing R-12 to the atmosphere, it was targeted at people maintaining/working on refrigeration systems mainly but who knows what using it for a cold powered rocket would constitute. One guy got a 20k-something fine and 31 months in prison for venting R-22. #### K'Tesh ##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris TRF Supporter Actually the EPA fines can be up to$37,500 if the .pdf I read from EPA is applicable to an individual releasing R-12 to the atmosphere, it was targeted at people maintaining/working on refrigeration systems mainly but who knows what using it for a cold powered rocket would constitute. One guy got a 20k-something fine and 31 months in prison for venting R-22.
It's not worth it to end up spending so much cool cash, and ending up in the cooler for over 2 years.

#### Kruegon

##### Well-Known Member
EPA press release. It's available in PDF for download. A little Google research showed that the average people saying what they got fined was about \$10K. Yes it CAN be more, but it seems to be at the discretion of the ticketing agent.