what is the state of rocketry

[garydogwood]

Is rocketry dieing out? i see less and less rocket stuff in the hobby stores here (with the one exception of one local hobby town). mostly just the small estes stuff. when i was in to this about 4 - 5 years ago there was quite a lot more. Walmart used to have a decent selection of motors - now just very few (although cheapest price around). even the Hobby Lobbys around here have a dismal supply (no aerotech) and their motor prices are full retail unless you get a 40% coupon which then makes it a pretty good deal. they do have the ocassional 25% off sale on rocket stuff but unless you are looking only for estes stuff (which is good stuff) no need to go there. used to find some real gems there back about 4 - 5 years ago.

Our local club has a lot of outreach programs (which is great) but there are less and less shopping choices locally in the big metroplex of dallas tx. even most towns around here have ordinences against launching rockets in the city limits. kind of hard to promote a hobby and get kids involved if there is no place to launch. or if they only have one chance a month at a club launch assuming the weather is good for that one weekend or the parents can take them there, or doesn't interfere with their other activities,etc.. the monthly launches are great but kind of hard to stay intested in something that you can only do so infrequently. a month is a lot longer for a kid that it is for an adult years ago could go to just about any vacant lot / schoolyard and launch away.

seems the city "leaders" see rockets as the same category as fireworks or some devious method to launch a terrorist attack seems like it is just too easy to ban any and everything that you don't fully understand.

over the last month i have placed 3 online orders for over $100 each. plus a few visits to the one store that has a halfway decent supply or motors. when I enquire at the hobby shops about rocket stuff (other than estes) they always tell me they can order it for me. that answer just doesn't cut it anymore in the internet age. i can order myself and save a good chunk of money and have it delivered to my door. I would prefer to support my local hobby shop even if it cost a few $ more but unless you are into the popular hobbies like RC cars / planes, then for the most part you gotta shop online one you want to expand past the Estes stuff. i know it is the ol' chicken and egg situation. they don't want to carry stuff that there if little interest ing, however, you cannot generate interest in something unless you carry / promote it.

in no way am in putting down Estes stuff. Most of my rockets are Estes and they are great rockets and fly wonderful. just would like to see more choices (MPR) and would really like to see more reloadable motors available. and i don't want to pay full retail!

I know there are seveal big huge launches but those are few and far between and usually a long long way from where the average rocketeer lives. I'm mainly talking about sport rocketry where you can go launch a few low to mid power rockets on the weekend or evenings.

Opinions / comments?

gw.

 

[heada]

If I'm reading your post correctly, there are really two complaints. First is that local stores are dropping rocketry and secondly is that local politicians are enacting laws that are making it harder and harder to launch rockets.

The first I think is easy to understand. The problem is the internet. You can now order rocket kits and parts from several online sources cheaper than you can get them locally. Because of this, more people are shopping online and local sales are suffering. If an item isn't selling, the store is only doing what is right for them by dropping that item. The only thing that will save a local store from dropping rocketry entirely is if someone buys rocketry items there. Ask if they can order that special kit you wanted. It might cost a little more than an online store and it might even take a little longer to get it but if you want rocketry items stocked in local stores the only way to entice the store to keep stocking them is to buy them.

As for the laws and politicians, the only advice I could give would be to educate the law makers. Invite them to a launch. Explain the safety rules that we follow. Show them how we work with the FAA and even the AFT even though we have a law suit with them. Show them how safe it really is and then ask them to repeal the law or ask them to create a law allowing rocketry. Work with the local parks departments to secure launch sites. I think there is a thread here by akpilot that shows how this is best done. He worked with the law makers to not only get model rocketry written into law as being allowed but he also secured a launch site.

Bottom line is, if you want local rocketry to flourish, you have to be willing to work at it until it grows to the point where it no longer needs your help to survive.

-Aaron

 

[shreadvector]

Cities get "sick" of rocketry when:

* Too many people cause too many problems launching from property they do not have permission to use.

* Same people launch rockets that can fly beyond the boundaries of a launch AND RECOVERY site. Ballistic crashes outside the launch site are very bad. Recovery drift onto nearby highways and property can be bad.

* Unstable dangerous rockets are "flown" (although the people who tend to do this refer to it as "shot off").

* Fire danger - dry brush, wood shake roofs, etc.

Solution: Obtain a fully legal launch site with sane altitude or power limits. Sometimes these must be fully supervised launches.

Ours are co-sponsored by the Parks Dept. That would be the Los Angeles County Dept of Parks and Recreation, CA. It can be done. Of course we had to overcome the bad taste left behind by moron morning radio idiots who attempted to launch rockets without proper permits on park property live on the radio (many years ago...).

 

[Solomoriah]

I guess I'm fortunate, regulation-wise, that I live in rural Missouri, a state widely known for not limiting such things. Also, as 4-H is big here, and I am a Project Leader, I can always play that card... I'm just hoping I can find a farmer willing to let me make use of his land for higher altitude launches. My mother owns sufficient land, but it's rented out, and even though she (and we) have retained rights to use the land, I'd have to work around the renter's cattle.

 

[SecretSquirrel]

If I'm reading your post correctly, there are really two complaints. First is that local stores are dropping rocketry and secondly is that local politicians are enacting laws that are making it harder and harder to launch rockets.

The first I think is easy to understand. The problem is the internet. You can now order rocket kits and parts from several online sources cheaper than you can get them locally. Because of this, more people are shopping online and local sales are suffering. If an item isn't selling, the store is only doing what is right for them by dropping that item. The only thing that will save a local store from dropping rocketry entirely is if someone buys rocketry items there. Ask if they can order that special kit you wanted. It might cost a little more than an online store and it might even take a little longer to get it but if you want rocketry items stocked in local stores the only way to entice the store to keep stocking them is to buy them.

That pretty well sums up my opinion, well said.

As for the laws and politicians, the only advice I could give would be to educate the law makers. Invite them to a launch. Explain the safety rules that we follow. Show them how we work with the FAA and even the AFT even though we have a law suit with them. Show them how safe it really is and then ask them to repeal the law or ask them to create a law allowing rocketry. Work with the local parks departments to secure launch sites. I think there is a thread here by akpilot that shows how this is best done. He worked with the law makers to not only get model rocketry written into law as being allowed but he also secured a launch site.

Bottom line is, if you want local rocketry to flourish, you have to be willing to work at it until it grows to the point where it no longer needs your help to survive.

I have some background in the Dallas area. We do try and educate the city leaders. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Bob Woodruff park in Plano is open for flying April 1 - October 31 every year. You just have to get a permit from the city. It will allow you and specified guests to fly. My permit specifies DARS as a guest, so club members have use of the field when I'm there. At first Plano didn't want to club to use the field, but a 45 minute phone conversation followed by a 30 minute meeting cleared that up.

We gained the Mountain View and Frisco fields after preparing presentations and demos for the people in charge. We also had to work with the local fire departments to get approval. This is the sort of thing that can only be done with a club as insurance is a major factor. Use of the fields does come with limitations. We have to schedule Mountain View around soccer schedules and can only use Frisco once per month. We can get permission at Frisco for a second day if we have an outreach but not for a club launch.

We tried to get a field in Arlington, unused park land. We didn't have any luck. We couldn't even get a meeting. There is someone high up in the Arlingtom parks department dead set against rocketry and won't even speak to us. So that's a lost cause, at least or now.

There may be other fields locally, but we need folks to go out and find them. They usually require someone living locally to be the contact person. When that all comes together, we have a fair shot at a field.

As or fields for individual use, they are out there, but the number is shrinking.

 

[wwattles]

This question comes up every so often on here, and the answers are always interesting.

Compared to "the good old days of rocketry" things are both better and worse. Worse in that there's more regulation and fewer places to fly. Better in that we have more options available, both in kits and in motor selection. Worse in that there are more regulations and fewer places to launch legally.

Unfortunately, we are easy targets in these days of "legislative creep." Because lawsuits against local governments are becoming more and more common, many municipalities are enacting self-protection measures prohibiting anything that may, even in the most bizzare and freaky accident, lead to a lawsuit against the city. Model rockets, in the eyes of many legislators, fall into the "you could poke your eye out" category, and thus are deemed a risk, and they pass rules against them. Thus, it falls to us to push back against those rules and, through appropriate governmental processes, provide the lawmakers the "warm and fuzzy" that they won't be sued if they allow rockets.

The hobby stores see that rockets are not authorized in nearly as many places anymore, so the market dries up significantly, and they can't make enough money on the hobby to keep themselves fully stocked. In contrast, the prices of other hobbies have dropped (RC, for example), so they can make up the difference there.

WW

 

[shockwaveriderz]

Fred said: "Ballistic crashes outside the launch site are very bad."

I would say the same is true for inside the launch site area.

terry dean
nar 16158

 

[shockwaveriderz]

b

 

[Fred]

This just seemed to fit better in the Coffee house
Cheers
fred

 

[denverdoc]

This question comes up every so often on here, and the answers are always interesting.

Compared to "the good old days of rocketry" things are both better and worse. Worse in that there's more regulation and fewer places to fly. Better in that we have more options available, both in kits and in motor selection. Worse in that there are more regulations and fewer places to launch legally.

Unfortunately, we are easy targets in these days of "legislative creep." Because lawsuits against local governments are becoming more and more common, many municipalities are enacting self-protection measures prohibiting anything that may, even in the most bizzare and freaky accident, lead to a lawsuit against the city. Model rockets, in the eyes of many legislators, fall into the "you could poke your eye out" category, and thus are deemed a risk, and they pass rules against them. Thus, it falls to us to push back against those rules and, through appropriate governmental processes, provide the lawmakers the "warm and fuzzy" that they won't be sued if they allow rockets.



WW

Where have all the merry-go-rounds gone? Some day, we will all live to be 120 and only then die of boredom.

 

[Micromeister]

Where have all the merry-go-rounds gone? Some day, we will all live to be 120 and only then die of boredom.

I couldn't agree more Doc!
Over protective partents, Toy and food police, it's getting to the point we'll all have learn to play video games and evolve into mindless couch potatos. Lawyer just take the J out of Joy and the F out of fun :rotflol:

 

[Rocket Doctor]

Cities get "sick" of rocketry when:

* Too many people cause too many problems launching from property they do not have permission to use.

* Same people launch rockets that can fly beyond the boundaries of a launch AND RECOVERY site. Ballistic crashes outside the launch site are very bad. Recovery drift onto nearby highways and property can be bad.

* Unstable dangerous rockets are "flown" (although the people who tend to do this refer to it as "shot off").

* Fire danger - dry brush, wood shake roofs, etc.

Solution: Obtain a fully legal launch site with sane altitude or power limits. Sometimes these must be fully supervised launches.

Ours are co-sponsored by the Parks Dept. That would be the Los Angeles County Dept of Parks and Recreation, CA. It can be done. Of course we had to overcome the bad taste left behind by moron morning radio idiots who attempted to launch rockets without proper permits on park property live on the radio (many years ago...).

Once again, Fred has summed it up nicely, take action and don't have a reaction. Basically, it's common cense.

Part of the problem is computers, cell phones, pagers, Ipod's, the need for "instant gratification". youth of today don't want to sit down and build a rocket, why do you think RTF's came about?

I'm very surprised that you can find plastic models and board games,if it's not electronic, they don't want it.

And the problem with mass merchandisers is, if the item doesn't sell, their bottom line (profit) isn't there. Alsao the mass doesn't have experienced help to teach potential new rockketeers how to use the product as would be the case with a hobby shop.

We all need to be aggressive and support local clubs and organizations such as Scouts and 4 H.

 

[jflis]

"Is rocketry dieing out?"

I don't think so.

With companies like SEMROC, SquirrelWorks, FlisKits and OH so many more, new life is being given this exciting hobby.

Strong (and growing) distribution of FlisKits, Sunward, SEMROC and many, many more are bringing these exciting kits to both young and old rocketeers.

Exciting projects (successes and failures) like Andy's X-wing, the upscale ACME, that huge Commanche and others are stirring up excitement.

Educational outreach by folks such as Don Magness, Carl McLawhorn, Glen Avalear and thousands of others are bringing rocketry to new faces every day

Some of this work is bringing new people into rocketry, and this is good.

Some of this work is bringing BACK folks who had left the hobby and this is good.

Some of this work is *keeping* folks to stay with the hobby, and this is good.

Every time we get a new BAR or keep someone who has contemplated leaving the hobby we have another ambassador of the sport. Someone who will join the cause of introducing more folks to the hobby of sport rocketry.

Is it dieing? I don't think so. I believe it came very close to becoming and "old mans hobby", but that has been thwarted.

The hobby isn't as strong as it was in the early 70's but I believe that it is doing better than it was in the early 90's.

Just my 2 cents, fwiw...

jim

 

[eugenefl]

According to many BAR's, there hasn't been a reason to be excited about rocketry in a long time. (i.e. space race) Any thoughts on whether a new space race or serious considerations for trips to the moon or Mars might inspire techno-kids into getting out into the field to build and fly rockets?

Some of the things I think kids have lost in this day and age is accessibility to a few major building tools: sharp hobby knives, glues, and paints. Parents don't seem to want anything to do with them, nor do they want to take the time to teach their kids, or are too terrified of how their kids may abuse these things. Sure, it's a much bigger problem (i.e. busy or irresponsible parenting), but it seems certain things are no longer considered "appropriate" for kids to handle.

I think the complexity and variety of today's problems with youth rocketry are more prevalent than ever. (Oh yes, and they have the distraction with the gizmos and gadgets that either go in their ears or on their screens.)

 

[shreadvector]

You may have been joking, but I was not.

If you blindly follow the field size of the NAR MRSC and launch a high performance rocket it can easily crash outside the "boundary" of a minimum field size for that power class. If there are highways or playgrounds or houses beyond the boundary, that could be a disaster. Angry homeowners or scared parents of toddlers on a playground will scream for bans on Model Rocket launching. Not something we should joke about.

You must be smarter than the NAR MRSC if you launch in an urban or suburban area (or any area that is not isolated).

Fred said: "Ballistic crashes outside the launch site are very bad."

I would say the same is true for inside the launch site area.

terry dean
nar 16158

 

[paparoof]

The problem is the internet.

You're on track there but I wouldn't call it a "problem". The Internet is just the new way. It's not really good or bad in the big picture. Most of the (relatively) newer small kit companies are VERY small operations. I have the distinct feeling that all of the companies Jim mentioned in his post are only run by a handful of people (though I don't actually know this for a fact). I'm sure a lot of the online hobby stores that sell rockets are also very small operations (how many people does Brian employ at BRS for example?).

The one downfall of online ordering of course is that you can't just run out and buy something on a whim or hold a kit bag in your hands before deciding to buy it. But if you order from the right vendors, they ship amazingly fast and will work with you closely to keep you happy when you get an item and after touching it decide it's not what you'd hoped. For example, about a month ago I placed an order with Apogee components on a Friday afternoon. The package arrived MONDAY MORNING.

My point here is that these companies ARE your small mom n' pops that give you the same warm fuzzy feeling you get when you spend your money at a local hobby shop.

 

[RoyGreen]

Some of the things I think kids have lost in this day and age is accessibility to a few major building tools: sharp hobby knives, glues, and paints. Parents don't seem to want anything to do with them, nor do they want to take the time to teach their kids, or are too terrified of how their kids may abuse these things. Sure, it's a much bigger problem (i.e. busy or irresponsible parenting), but it seems certain things are no longer considered "appropriate" for kids to handle.

On the contrary. Back in the 60's/70's, even the 80's, you had to go to a real hobby shop to find such tools and materials. You think there are no hobby shops now... it wasn't that much better back then. I lived in Athens, GA a town of about 50,000 at the time, and our "hobby" shop was a couple of shelves in a news stand/tobacco shop, and another couple of shelves at a local 5&10. That is why Estes and Centuri sold those things through the mail back then and doesn't need to now.

Now, I can go just about anywhere and get Xacto knockoffs, super glues, paints, etc. Back then I had a choice of Testors bottle or spray from Woolworths, or Krylon from the hardware store. Primer? fuggeddaboudit.

The problem is not availability or exposure. It is competing interest. We could barely get organized Little League or PeeWee football back then. Now we have multiple soccer leagues for every age group, playing nearly every waking hour. And don't mention the video games, which we didn't have until the mid 70's.

 

[Gesundheit!]

Nevada.

 

[Fred]

Folks i run a games kiosk in a mall. We dont sell any form of computer game period. its all boards cards and dice and we do well enough most days. Some parents seem to realise that kids and themselves can have fun with tangible real things. the place wher it gets lost IMO is when they hit high school and lots of things get sideboarded then. Do a launch demonstration for some kids in a school or group or run build sessions. i have done both and it helps and is lots of fun to boot. I think rocketry is doing okay but i did not do it in the 70's either.
Cheers
Fred

 

[denverdoc]

State of rocketry: In a word: moribund.

We need a BATFE matter judgement ASAP. All but one B&M hobby shop in the area has little if anything HPR related left on the shelves, no motor inventory, few mags/books etc. My guess is this hobby like most has a pretty high turnover. This means we need lots of recruits just to stay even. I think many shops have hunkered down to see whats in the offing. Countdown is down for the count.

The obvious shot in the arm is a favorable ruling in tandem with a strike down of the Leup requirements. Not that the hobby will ever entirely disappear even if we get the shaft. Maybe just go underground. Interest will be re-lit in a big way with the privatization of space.

 

[Lucky 94]

snip

The obvious shot in the arm is a favorable ruling in tandem with a strike down of the Leup requirements. Not that the hobby will ever entirely disappear even if we get the shaft. Maybe just go underground. Interest will be re-lit in a big way with the privatization of space.[/QUOTE]

God I hope so. We saw what a International Space Race Did. Now it is time to see the boosted affects of new companies clawing into the sky. Soon we will see Corps. like them sponsering Estes,( unless the smaller companies make thems selves known and show there ARE other companies besides estes.)

 

[CharlaineC]

know that in rhode island the issue is not the state laws bt the ares to launch and recover the rockets. mostly I am foced to go to small airports and or semi large fields. The one realy go place in th state to fly at has been turned into a walmart. The few farms that will allow you to launch only allow during certain times a year. Also their are no clubs. The one listed never seems to be active and the closest clubs are in conn. This makes it hard as well. On the other hand their are notmany hobbe shops in the state that carry rocketry stuff. Frocing the interested partys to either give up or go someplace elce

 

[Micromeister]

I find that here on the eastcoast the biggest headache is finding fields large enough to fly. Midwest and Western states don't seem to have that problem at all. We in this neck of the woods have to contend with "the Woods" Trees!! Gerrrr!!!! that's one of the reasons I'm so Happy Micros have come along!
Now I can literally fly in my back yard if I want to, or in places that up until MicroMaxx came along were completely out of the question. Would you believe a flying demonstration two city blocks from the Nations Capitol building? Yeap! with micros i've done it several times in the last couple years.
It's gotten harder to find decent acreage at least in the DC/Maryland/VA area for clubs to fly. I'm not sure what all the individuals are doing?
I do see LOTS of places selling all manor of NEW kits not just the average Estes stuff anymore. Mostly LPR/MPR but thats OK, as most of the larger stuff can be had on-line anyway.

 

[caheaton]

Charlaine,
I checked too and saw that only 1 RI club was listed by the NAR. Have you checked with Tripoli? I looked them up and they have one listed too:

OCEAN STATE HIGH POWER(20)
TIMOTHY HETLAND
32 LORING ST
MIDDLETOWN RI 02842-5981
(401) 847-9522
[email protected]

Maybe you could contact them for some sources of flying fields?

Craig
(Or move to SW Ohio and join our club! )

 

[SpartaChris]

I think a lot of folks here have pretty much nailed it on the head as a combination of things. The key thing I think is that we live in a completely different time now.

We live in a digital age. Kids would rather play Playstation and listen to their Ipods than do something skillful with their hands.

We live in an age of mis-informed fear. Parents are panicked because if they give their kids an X-Acto knife, they might be leading that kid to commit suicide. If they give their kids some paints, their kids might start huffing it and turn to drugs or get lead poisoning. If they buy some rocket motors, they might blow up in their face or start a fire.

We live in an age where no one has to be responsible for themselves, and because of that, parents will always listen to how the givernment says they should raise their child rather than making their own parenting decisions.

We live in a time where you can't grade papers in red ink because if the child fails, he might feel bad about himself. You can't play the game of tag in some schools because not every kid is as athletic as others. Are we honestly surprised that parents are afraid of rocketry?

 

[denverdoc]

Chris,
I agree with some of that sentiment. But I don't see the enemy as government in the same way you do. Here I think we need to take at least part of the blame> People sue at a drop of the hat. If their kid fails, they look to blame others--in some ways, rightly so, as the schools for the most part do a miserable job.

But above all else, it is a culture of instant gratification, and building a rocket simply takes too long. Just look at the R/C scene ARF's and RTF's everywhere.

You'd have to look thru many dusty bins to find a tissue and stick plane. Much easier to just watch TV or play a video game.

 

[roadkill]

Much easier to just watch TV or play a video game.

And they wonder why kids get
more overweight / obese by the day...


In the light of all frivolous / excessive litigation
and noxious post 9/11 atmosphere perhaps the Supreme
Court could streamline all existing laws, rules and regulations
just declaring the classic germanesque :

Alles Verboten !

:cry:

 

[Lucky 94]

Of course we live in a caotic age. And why would a kid( note, these are observations of kids at my school), want to do anything that could take effort or be made a joke of. I have a former friend who dropped out of Algebra 1 just because, " It's to much work." So if people can't even complete school classes then what hope do hobbies.


I am not trying to sound like the devils advocate and I am diffently not trying to start anything. These are just observations of mine.

 

[pyroboy]

Of course we live in a caotic age. And why would a kid( note, these are observations of kids at my school), want to do anything that could take effort or be made a joke of. I have a former friend who dropped out of Algebra 1 just because, " It's to much work." So if people can't even complete school classes then what hope do hobbies.

im almost 18 and have many hobbies, i think that playing a playstation ect is boring id much prefer to be making advanced spudguns ect...and tbh i dont realy car if id me made a joke...when someone needs some engineering help they turn to me....whos the joke on then?

and where in from wales uk, i dont know anyone who has made rockets so i think it may be dying out....but it was never a popular thing to do here realy..

 

[Lucky 94]

I don't care either. I was just talking of the general of my school.


I am going to try and get rocketry in the classes here so maybe that will help.