What altitude for visual tracking?

[Cmac]

I hope this isn't an odd question.
Both my son and I have really been enjoying this hobby together for about a year now.
We usually fly our LPR only fleet in a local park that has 1000x1000 area.
Pretty much C-6-3 and streamers all day.
We went to our first club launch last weekend and all we can talk about now is our level 1 certification.
He's studying his Tripoli Mentoring Program as I write this.
There were a few other college teams at the club doing level 1 test flights and they all stayed within eyesight.
A couple other club members flew much higher altitude.
Neither my son or I were interested in the high altitude flights. We spent most of the time staring at a blue sky waiting for the rocket to come back into sight.
We want to see the whole show; take-off, apogee, chute deployment and landing.
So to the heart of my (quite possibly silly) question... considering a level 1 rocket built with a 4" BT and 48" length, what would be a near max altitude that would keep it within eyesight?
Our LPR park fleet goes to about 800' and visible.
My guess is approx. 1,200 feet. Does that sound reasonable?

 

[Padseven]

4" Diameter 48" length should be pretty visible to 2200 feet or so depending on paint schemes and sky.

 

[mikec]

Depends on how good your eyesight is, what the conditions are like, etc. I've tracked rockets that size to at least 5000 feet or so with binoculars.

 

[Nytrunner]

Paint it dark and contrasting, you can see it to ~3000 or more.

I've visually tracked the 4" Patriot in my sig to ~4200

 

[Speaknoevil]

I don't have the best eyes in the world, but 3000 is a good number for me for most any size rocket.

 

[Cmac]

Thanks all.
Wow, that high!?
I'm talking naked eye sight though. No binoculars.
Would chute deployment be visible at these altitudes?

Let me ask this in a different way.
What would be the SAFE lowest altitude possible with a small H motor on a 4" dia 48" length rocket?

 

[Nytrunner]

Unless you add a bunch of weight, that'll go around 1/4 mile to 2000' Should still be easily visible. Make sure you're going 45-50 ft/s upon rail exit for safety

To your question of seeing the parachute, Many are high visibility colors like red/orange/yello/ neon green/pink.

 

[tOD]

I can see my orange 4" DX3 to around 3000'. Some launches I've been to seem to have LCO's with super vision. They describe events, and I just go, huh?, Where?

 

[Charles_McG]

I'm going to say ~1500' minimum, without reviewing some of my sims.

As for visual tracking, I tend to look stuff at about 2000'. I've used a 12' mylar 'happy birthday' streamer what was easy to see at 2000', but I lost at 3500'

Sky color and sun (can reflect off glossy surfaces) have a big effect.

 

[boatgeek]

I've always been able to track 4" rockets with the naked eye to about 5000 feet or maybe a little more in clear skies. A little less if there's lots of clouds--most anything stands out against the clear sky because it's backlit. On my L2 flight, I could track a 2.6" rocket to about 4500, but it was absolutely crystal clear that day. I wouldn't want to depend on it every day.

 

[caveduck]

Pretty variable depending on 1) size and reflectivity of rocket and chute, 2) your eyesight, 3) your experience level, and 4) sky conditions. In clear skies I can track a 4" rocket like an EZI-65 to 4000-5000 ft and L3 size rockets (6" x 12ft+) to 8000-10,000. In poor skies - uneven gray stuff is the worst - half that high or less. One thing to remember when eyeball tracking a high flight is to not take your eye off the model while it's still way up there. Once the smoke trail dissipates you'll have a devil of a time finding it again. Low power binoculars are super helpful if that happens. For a cert flight I'd be very conservative and keep it down around 2000' where you really shouldn't have any problems.

 

[TimothyG]

A huge component of this is self discipline. If you don’t take your eyes off the rockets for any reason at all your tracking altitude goes up since you’re not searching. With binoculars on a 4” rocket I can track to 20 thousand feet. Naked eye is about a mile after some practice. 54 and under rockets get harder due to size. If I had to recommend a good set of binoculars I’d go with vortex 10 power.
Edited to correct repeated comment component

 

[Wallace]

On an average day I'm good to about 150 feet. But I'm half blind...

 

[Cmac]

On an average day I'm good to about 150 feet. But I'm half blind...

Ha, me too, hence my concern!

Make sure you're going 45-50 ft/s upon rail exit for safety

Thank you for that.

I'm glad I asked. I was planning on 1000'-1500'.

 

[jlabrasca]

How far down on the eye chart can you read? (How far down in this thread will you read >smile<).

For a person with normal vision, on a day when it isn't too bright (so that his or her pupil is well dilated), you'd assume a best case visual resolution of about an arcminute (30 arcseconds is the number usually quoted for making naked eye astronomical observations). This hypothetical clear-sighted person could, under good conditions, resolve the width of your rocket at a distance of about 1100 feet and could resolve the length of your rocket at a distance of about 13,000 feet.

In practice, even a sharp-eyed person is apt to lose sight of a rocket.

A huge component of this is self discipline. If you don’t take your eyes off the rockets for any reason at all your tracking altitude goes up since you’re not searching.

This is the hard part. Tracking fast moving object going upwards doesn't come naturally, or easily, for some of us.

 

[SpaceManMat]

There’s 2 parts to this as I see it. If you want to observe the flight for a 4 inch rocket stay below 3000 feet and it should be a good show IMO assuming you have reasonable eyesight. The other part is getting it back reliably, in which case I would recommend other forms of tracking if going above 2000 feet, less if you are not doing dual deploy all of which depending on winds.

 

[Zeus-cat]

If you are going for your L1 you I assume you will be doing this at a club launch. The good thing about club launches is lots of eyes; some better than others. Next time you go try tracking rockets that go high. After the flight ask the flier how high the rocket went. You should get a good idea of how high you can track a rocket that way. Some days I track stuff well, and other days I can't see beyond my nose.

Another tip: do not video or photograph your L1 flight. Get someone else to do it. Just watch it and enjoy it without the distraction of a camera.

 

[dwightr]

I've flown a 4" x 64" long rocket and tracked it to 3400' with no problem. John Deere yellow body tube with green fins and nosecone.

 

[HVArcas]

Lots of variables here - some of us fly M motors to near 20k visually

Many of us lose G and H rockets at 3k.

Size of rocket and particulars of the site are hugely important

 

[MClark]

Back in the day Chuck Rogers did visual tracking at launches at Lucerne and Black Rock to quite high altitude.
He tracked the first stage of my rocket to 24,000 feet, angle was too high and baseline too short to track upper stage although the tracking powder change could be clearly seen at 80,000 feet plus.

M

 

[Padseven]

I think you all are missing the point. The OP wants to be able to WATCH the rocket during each phase of the flight. Tracking is different from watching.

 

[MikeyDSlagle]

I flew my 4" Tyrannosaur to 6400 feet, within eyesight the whole flight; and my eyes are terrible, I've worn glasses since early 80s. Tracking one in flight is the easy part for me. I lose the darn things after they've landed. Even when I see them land. I'm just not good at it.

Being able to watch all events, probably keep it below 2000'. I prefer flights between 1200' up to 3000', depending on the size of the rocket.

Safe lowest altitude? Many folks set the main chutes on dual deploy flights to open at 500', or even 300'. If you nail the delay, or use an altimeter, 500' is reasonable. May be puckering though.

 

[John Kemker]

Another tip: do not video or photograph your L1 flight. Get someone else to do it. Just watch it and enjoy it without the distraction of a camera.

Amen!

 

[boatgeek]

One more tip--point at the rocket whenever you can see it. That really helps you keep a handle on where it is when you blink, and helps other people pick it up again if they lose it.

On the ground, take a compass bearing or sight a landmark in the distance on the horizon past your rocket. Start walking that line until you are absolutely sure you've passed your rocket. Walk out another 10% farther and it will be right there.

 

[Flyfalcons]

Sky conditions make such a huge difference on this. I would figure that even on a dim, grey day, you should be able to see it at 2,000' or so. With clear skies, 3,000'+.

 

[cerving]

My guideline is about 700' or so per foot of rocket. Beyond that, you better have a tracker.

 

[o1d_dude]

Even with my geezerly eyes, I’m able to watch and track my rockets to at least 2500’.

Keep your rocket and chute colors bright and use contrast to the extent possible. My flying colors are fluorescent pink for the body tube and nose cone with black for the fin can. Most enthusiast chutes use alternating color panels but they might be expensive. Bright pink or Electric Lime are usually pretty good in the sky and are highly visible on the ground which is a plus.

Painting your rocket with “sky colors” (pale blue, gray, etc) is just asking for trouble.

 

[Cmac]

One more tip--point at the rocket whenever you can see it. That really helps you keep a handle on where it is when you blink, and helps other people pick it up again if they lose it.
On the ground, take a compass bearing or sight a landmark in the distance on the horizon past your rocket. Start walking that line until you are absolutely sure you've passed your rocket. Walk out another 10% farther and it will be right there.

I found myself instinctively doing this during our first club launch last weekend!
I'll be adding a compass to my field bag inventory. My son (and rocket partner) just finished his orienteering merit badge. I'll give him some practice.

Being able to watch all events, probably keep it below 2000'. I prefer flights between 1200' up to 3000', depending on the size of the rocket.

Sky conditions make such a huge difference on this. I would figure that even on a dim, grey day, you should be able to see it at 2,000' or so. With clear skies, 3,000'+.

Yeah, this seems like it's going to be my sweet spot for now.

My guideline is about 700' or so per foot of rocket. Beyond that, you better have a tracker.

Thank you for that! It seems like my planned 3-4 ft rocket will be fine at ~2000 ft.

Even with my geezerly eyes, I’m able to watch and track my rockets to at least 2500’.

Keep your rocket and chute colors bright and use contrast to the extent possible. My flying colors are fluorescent pink for the body tube and nose cone with black for the fin can. Most enthusiast chutes use alternating color panels but they might be expensive. Bright pink or Electric Lime are usually pretty good in the sky and are highly visible on the ground which is a plus.
Painting your rocket with “sky colors” (pale blue, gray, etc) is just asking for trouble.

Thank you Cranky Old Dude! This is Cranky Middle-aged Dude.
We saw several collage research clubs last weekend and theirs were all florescent colors. It looked like they didn’t spend more than 15 minutes randomly applying their cheap rattle can finish of lime green and hot pink. My son and I rolled our eyes at their “amateur efforts” but then we realized what their goal was and sheepishly put another C motor in our Big Bertha.
We’re heavily considering the V2 white and black scheme. What’s your opinion on that?
Otherwise I’ll take your advice and use bright florescent colors. We’ve already decided that this first one is a pure novice research rocket. Concentrating on practicing construction, flight and recovery skills. No flame or Tasmanian devil decals.

Thank you everybody for your time. You are all so nice to an obvious greenhorn.
I feel like my question has been answered.

 

[Nytrunner]

We saw several collage research clubs last weekend and theirs were all florescent colors. It looked like they didn’t spend more than 15 minutes randomly applying their cheap rattle can finish of lime green and hot pink. My son and I rolled our eyes at their “amateur efforts” but then we realized what their goal was and sheepishly put another C motor in our Big Bertha.

Hahaha, ahh yes the college teams! They have to get those rockets back at least once and fly again for competition after all (plus they have to reconcile competitions deadlines with bizarre class/college deadlines for project milestones)

Head on over to Huntsville in April and you'll see that most of those rockets look a lot nicer. The well off schools get theirs done by automotive paint shops or vinyl wraps with their sponsors. Or they let their bare composite tubes show through to show off their student's layup work. (Vanderbilt's bare carbon with gold accent is repeatedly one of the best looking rockets that shows up, although I may be biased since they helped me retrieve one of mine from a tree awhile ago)

 

[NateB]

Cmac- just don't call it a "Research Rocket" when it gets inspected for your cert flight. I know you mean it as a learning experience, but you wouldn't want someone to misunderstand and think you were using a "Research" ie. homemade or otherwise non-certified motor. Semantics, yes, but that is the term that has been given to non-commercial motors.