Were the Estes Scion, Panavia, and Sahara rockets available for retail (or at all)?

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CoolRockets

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Hello, people of mid-power rocketry, I need some help. Where the Estes Scion, Panavia, and Sahara rockets ever available for retail, the Panavia instructions are in the Estes instructions section, but not the others. Images will be below if they jog your memory. You guys are all most likely way smarter than I am in this topic because I only have a super big Bertha, big red Max, Saturn v Skylab, and a doorknob that I went full caveman brain on when building them. Thank you and have a nice day.

8EC3F7A3-EA6A-4FF1-B9A3-37D918748464.jpegThe ScionE9ECDBE9-1FCC-4759-9A33-980808811DB7.jpegThe SaharaB28D8B38-74E2-432B-BDA0-1B97AE9B728A.jpegand, The Panavia
 
Yes. They were sold by Estes retail.
 
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The Scion, Sahara and Panavia were, IIRC, only sold through the Estes website. Those were sort of SPEV (spare parts elimination vehicles 😉) kits - the Scion was for sure since most kits came with all four Leviathan fins, I used my Scion kit to build a stretched Leviathan - that came in plain poly bags with no face card or hang tag. Did some online retailers sell them? Maybe, but I don’t recall it. I clicked through most of the 2016-2018 PSII page captures from AC Supply’s website on the Wayback Machine and none of the three were listed there. If AC Supply didn’t carry them it’s a good indicator that their availability retail was unusual.

A couple of “garage” vendors did repros of the PSII builder kits like Vanderburn and Bad Boy Rocketry for example, and I think at least Vanderburn did the Scion, Sahara and Panavia.
 
My recollection is that I bought mine directly from the Estes website, and I don't remember seeing them for sale from any retailer then or subsequently. I went back recently and tried to find details in an Estes catalog, without success. I was looking for pictures or facecards for color schemes, as I don't think the kits contain them. Mine are as yet unbuilt, still in their sealed bags. Their appearance and (brief) sales period definitely corresponded to the phase-out of the standard catalog builder PS-II kits of that time. I just have a few notes (with model numbers) from my email order confirmation. In parentheses are the standard models on which I judged each to have been based. There was no Estes catalog in 2017, and when the 2018 catalog came out, all of those PS-II builder models were gone.

2017 Order:

009712 Scion (Leviathan)

009713 Sahara (Ventris)

009715 Panavia (Argent)
 
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My recollection is that I bought mine directly from the Estes website, and I don't remember seeing them for sale from any retailer then or subsequently. I went back recently and tried to find details in an Estes catalog, without success. I was looking for pictures or facecards for color schemes, as I don't think the kits contain them. Mine are as yet unbuilt, still in their sealed bags. Their appearance and (brief) sales period definitely corresponded to the phase-out of the standard catalog builder PS-II kits of that time. I just have a few notes (with model numbers) from my email order confirmation. In parentheses are the standard models on which I judged each to have been based.

2017 Order:

009712 Scion (Leviathan)

009713 Sahara (Ventris)

009715 Panavia (Argent)
+1
IIRC they were only available by website, not in the catalog or through any retailers.
Came in plastic bags with no header cards.
I believe they were SPEVs, using up the parts from previous PS II models.
 
The Scion, Sahara and Panavia were, IIRC, only sold through the Estes website. Those were sort of SPEV (spare parts elimination vehicles 😉) kits - the Scion was for sure since most kits came with all four Leviathan fins
I still have the extra fin sitting at the bottom of my parts stash.
 
Thank you all for helping me figure out something about these three rockets, I just saw them on RocketReviews and assumed they were in Estes at some point and found nothing other than plans for one, I wanted to get them from BadBoy rocketry, but then I did some research. Again thanks for your experiences with the three rockets
 
Thank you all for helping me figure out something about these three rockets, I just saw them on RocketReviews and assumed they were in Estes at some point and found nothing other than plans for one, I wanted to get them from BadBoy rocketry, but then I did some research. Again thanks for your experiences with the three rockets
No worries. Those mid-2000s PSII builder kits have a sort of cult following. They really weren’t very popular when Estes first released them - except maybe the Mega Der Red Max - but when Estes then parent company Hobbico started struggling financially they discounted them deeply and folks started buying them up and modding them. Now with most of the proprietary tubes and nose cones unavailable even the repros are getting scarce. But there’s plenty of MPR and low-end HPR kits out there from other sources so no shortage of rockets in that size range - just none with the Estes brand.

It was an interesting experiment for Estes. They bought the composite PSII labeled motors from Aerotech - no idea if the plan was to eventually make their own APC motors for sale to the hobby community, others might have some insight into that. The kits couldn’t have been cheap for Estes to make and had a high MSRP plus they used unique parts not shared with their regular lines. As I said earlier, you can get plenty of like kits from vendors like LOC, Madcow, BMS, North Coast, etc so their demise didn’t really leave a hole in the market. The exception is the MDRM - with that unique nose cone, huge decal set and obvious nostalgia appeal it is missed, kick myself for not buying a couple of those at $50-ish bucks a pop!
 
A little more info:
I had to dig out my PS IIs from the closet and take a look.
Scion uses the Leviathan fins, reversed. 3 instead of 4. And the Leviathan nose cone.
Sahara uses the Partizon fins and Argent transition and nose cone.
Panavia uses the Argent fins and Partizon nose cone.
They weren't available all that long, maybe a few weeks to months.
Long enough to clear out the spare parts from the Estes warehouse I guess.
 
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but when Estes then parent company Hobbico started struggling financially they discounted them deeply
I remember as a returning BAR seeing the Leviathan, Partizon, Argent and Ventris being sold as a bundle for $80.
Needless to say I jumped on it and the Prowler launch set.
:clapping:
 
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The exception is the MDRM - with that unique nose cone, huge decal set and obvious nostalgia appeal it is missed, kick myself for not buying a couple of those at $50-ish bucks a pop!
Don't forget the PS II Nike Smoke. That plastic nose cone is now unobtanium. I picked up a second one when they were closing it out.
 
Also I’m part of the PSII cult following, if only more were available, I would get them all
 
I remember as a returning BAR seeing the Leviathan, Panavia, Argent and Ventris being sold as a bundle for $80.
Needless to say I jumped on it and the Prowler launch set.
:clapping:
I did this as well. I built the Argent, then decided the others were kinda the same build experience, so they were sold. The two exceptions were the PSII Nike Smoke and MDRM. These were the stars of the old PSII line. I know Estes does not have motors for these kits, but they are just nice kits. Too bad they are not around.
 
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I liked the Avatar “unobtanium” reference you just did
The slang "unobtanium" for something - especially a material - that is impossible (completely or nigh) to acquire is far, far older than Avatar. I think I picked it up from usenet in the early '90s, and it was already older than dirt back then.
 
I feel lucky that I was able to get the few PSII kits and nose cones that were still available a few years back.
DB165B23-4F17-4747-8C60-60049E78E664.jpeg
12229C34-82F3-4ECC-A04F-B0502E120789.jpeg251C010D-1210-4138-A5B8-77FD88B8931C.jpeg465A24C2-C5F2-457B-A2B8-2208F6FB2EB8.jpeg
 
I still have several PSII kits in my build pile, Including a Scion and a Panavia. Both were sold in an unmarked plastic sleeve. I believe I got my Scion as a replacement for a CATO in an Argent.
 
I want to say that I got a MDRM kit from a Hobbylinc sale for around $35? Wish I had purchased a couple dozen. For what they go for on eBay I will have fully funded my son’s college savings account.
 
The slang "unobtanium" for something - especially a material - that is impossible (completely or nigh) to acquire is far, far older than Avatar. I think I picked it up from usenet in the early '90s, and it was already older than dirt back then.
If you can believe Wikipedia, the first written reference to unobtainium was in a glossary article printed in the Journal of the USAF, Air University, in 1958. Which sounds about right - I recall reading it in science fiction stories from the 60s - usually used in a comic manner.

Frankly I laughed out loud when I read Cameron was using it for the “McGuffin” in Avatar - I thought it was a joke…
 
I want to say that I got a MDRM kit from a Hobbylinc sale for around $35? Wish I had purchased a couple dozen. For what they go for on eBay I will have fully funded my son’s college savings account.
Considering the original $90 MSRP what was Estes wholesaling these for at that point - no more than $30 most likely, or even less?
 
No worries. Those mid-2000s PSII builder kits have a sort of cult following. They really weren’t very popular when Estes first released them - except maybe the Mega Der Red Max - but when Estes then parent company Hobbico started struggling financially they discounted them deeply and folks started buying them up and modding them. Now with most of the proprietary tubes and nose cones unavailable even the repros are getting scarce. But there’s plenty of MPR and low-end HPR kits out there from other sources so no shortage of rockets in that size range - just none with the Estes brand.

It was an interesting experiment for Estes. They bought the composite PSII labeled motors from Aerotech - no idea if the plan was to eventually make their own APC motors for sale to the hobby community, others might have some insight into that. The kits couldn’t have been cheap for Estes to make and had a high MSRP plus they used unique parts not shared with their regular lines. As I said earlier, you can get plenty of like kits from vendors like LOC, Madcow, BMS, North Coast, etc so their demise didn’t really leave a hole in the market. The exception is the MDRM - with that unique nose cone, huge decal set and obvious nostalgia appeal it is missed, kick myself for not buying a couple of those at $50-ish bucks a pop!
Part of what doomed the original PSII product line was the expectation that the kits would have annual sales akin to an Alpha or Big Bertha. The requirement for distributor/retailer discounts made the SRP high when rocketry was suppose to be an 'inexpensive' hobby in the eyes of the average Estes customer.
 
Yeah, all the old (mid-2000s) PSII kids all looked a bit bland with ‘fancy’ names. I think the main reason they discontinued the mid-2000s ones was because they were called Ventris and leviathan and were three base colors with no decals, unlike the big Bertha or the alien invader, they had much more whimsical names and has popping colors and fun decals, the most decals on and OG PSII kit were the mega red Max and Nike smoke and they only had a few decals
 
I bought a Sahara from Estes for $29.99 in 2019. I think I got the last one. It showed up on their website, I placed my order and then it disappeared, and not seen since. They may have found parts for one more and put it up on the site. 🤷‍♂️
It's one of my go-to rockets when I want to fly something on a G53 or G64.
 
Don't forget the PS II Nike Smoke. That plastic nose cone is now unobtanium. I picked up a second one when they were closing it out.
I got one of those as a a complete unopened kit from @fyrwrxz when I traded him a CTI 54mm hardware starter set I had won at LDRS. He mentioned the kit would be pretty sought-after but I didn’t realize the uniqueness at the time.

I haven’t thrown it together yet, it’s still sitting in my garage unopened. He seemed pretty glad to be rid of it, TBH, and I haven’t seen or heard from him since. I don’t know if he left the hobby or went on the run or if he’s gone now or what. Totally weird.

Anyway, the nose cone. I’m not willing to part with it, but if anyone requires dimensions or specifications for a repro I’d be willing to break the bag open and provide them, or any other information I can. I don’t know how desperately the information is sought after by itself, but the offer stands nonetheless.
 
For a while Toby Vanderbeek sold Estes clones for all these rockets. He established the company name
Vanderburn. This was a reference to the laser burning of the fins etc...
He sold the company to a well known vendor. The new vendor only makes a few of the models Toby used to make. And the prices are WAY higher than when Toby had it.
Sad but I already purchased all the models Toby had available.
 
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