PayLoad
I don't do spirals
I take offense to that.
Thanks, but I don’t deserve much credit. if you read Terry’s (@prfesser) first paragraph in post #8, I think it says the same thing.
Where this got confusing was that many of the questions listed two different components: An EMK, and propellant grains. Neither by itself is against the rules as long as DOT rules are followed. If sold simultaneously the intention is suspicious and the optics are terrible. If sold as a single item, intention is clear and no longer legally defensible.
My problem with threads like this became is that it’s like going to the police and asking what where the loopholes are so they can exploit them. Someone’s always trying to see how close to the line they can skate, without any consideration for how it makes the hobby look. What I really want to say is “don’t be stupid!”
That is the deal. Want to be a propellant manufacturer? One has to jump through the legal AND CERTIFICATION hoops to do so. I don't have a problem with that. AT and even Estes did it many years ago when it likely wasn't "as difficult" but motor grains need to be tested for consistency. Though as I recall Estes BP motors were classified as "Class C" fireworks for a time but were being sold in "said" states that outlawed Class C stuff (so called fireworks). Kids and parents flew BP rockets without problem or molestation by authorities In these "said" states. I know as I am in Illinois and flew with the Glen Ellyn Rocketry Society in the 60's and had no problem buying BP Estes motors as a "kid" at the local hobby shop (Al's in Elmhurst and Glen Ellyn Toy and Card Shop) and by mail. Did flying at the club field at North Park in Glen Ellyn, Illinois. Got older and concentrated on studies to get into college and post graduate training. Technically, class C stuff was/is outlawed in Illinois except for certain "permitted" people. Stumbled into a Tripoli launch when I was older and got hooked again. Am on hiatus for now but will get back. (O.K. once I clean the garbage out of my two little home shops and get'em arranged.)Every thread I have found on this subject always seems to degenerate into an imagination of some clown selling untested products from his garage who is willingly trying to circumvent any / all regulations regarding DOT / ATF / NAR / Tripoli. Can we look at it from another angle and get some input?
Can someone (who is following proper zoning, purchase requirements, manufacturing processes, business practices) Sell EMKs on the open market for use in Tripoli Launches? If not, How can RCS do so?
Why is this not a "yes" or "no" question?
All that you describe can be done by purchasing a commercial reload and modifying it.I am going to make 1 post in this thread, to offer my situation.... as an engineer I would love to take commercial propellant grains and then run the simulations and design requirements to make a customized thrust / burn profile. Cutting and coring the grains, sizing the nozzle geometry etc. is work in "making" a motor. This would allow me to fly a research motor, designed around a specific rocket or flight profile. Also, as a "materials" person, I like looking into if non- standard materials can allow expanded properties. ie. if I make a liner from (xxxx) can I make and end burner with very long thrust time.
Currently I have 0 chance of actually manufacturing propellant grains. Lots of reasons. ( young kids, I am not a chemist I am a mechanical engineer, against my homeowners insurance policy, against codified ordinances in my community, etc.)
I for one definitely hope this allowance for a research motor to be one where "standard propellant grains" are used to research "other" aspects of rocket motors is allowed to continue.
[ One note: profit/loss if review by ANY outside jurisdiction is NOT going to look at sales of individual parts. They will review EVERYTHING. So having large profit on one part and a small loss on another, gets combined, and will be explained to the authority having jurisdiction as making an overall profit. ]
Agreed unless the member was a dual member NAR and Tripoli. If I remember correctly if one is NAR only, they CANNOT fly a Research motor at a Tripoli launch even if it was a Research sanctioned launch. I believe a lot of TRA launches allow both commercial and research motors unless the sponsoring club dictates otherwise. The sponsering TRA club has the last say. Commercial-only or what have you. If a NAR only member shows up at a Tripoli sanctioned launch that allows Research and Commercial motors, they can only fly Commercial PERIOD! That is unless they join Tripoli. If one wants to mix, they need to join Tripoli. Plenty of dual NAR/Tripoli members out there. NAR even looked back and gave me my membership number I had when I was 12 years old back in the late 60's. #11583 when I signed up again in the late 80's. I don't think they do that anymore. Was over 20 to 25 years I was out. Gotta a relatively low TRA #10583 so close to my NAR number.I don’t know of any reason why not.
No
I think in the very early stages, if it was an Ex launch, all motors had to be "Ex"
+1With Steve Shannon's post and Terry's post, I think it's time the thread was closed.
Ahhhhh, Thanks for reminding me on that point. Since I was out in the boondocks and most fliers wanted to fly EX, (and to be quite frank all attended the same mixing session) just had to coordinate that the NAR wasn't planning on flying that day.Yes. Commercial motors were not allowed at an EX launch, neither were spectators. Typical fashion was a 2 or 3-day launch, with the last day reserved for EX flyers only.
Agreed,With Steve Shannon's post and Terry's post, I think it's time the thread was closed.
DO YOU FEEL LUCKY PUNK! GO AHEAD, MAKE MY DAY!!!If it were regulated explosives, yes. All forms of transportation and possession get complicated. If one were mailing the grains, the hazardous item shipping rules apply, but those would apply in commerce or not. With APCP being deregulated by the ATF, is it still under DOT shipping rules for placards and weight when in commerce?
You don't need to worry about that with me. I have no intention on selling grains. Balancing Federal, State, local, and transportion laws is tricky.Don't, I repeat don't make motor grains for sale to the public unless one is in compliance with the current laws good or bad.
Yup, me neither. If I find a good mix formula I might dink with it. Gotta get out and mix up something new.You don't need to worry about that with me. I have no intention on selling grains. Balancing Federal, State, local, and transportion laws is tricky.
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