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Wadding Alternatives??

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William

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I am looking for somthing outher then tissue wadding, last weekend after i melted my streamers on my comanche, somone showed me that thay used ,well it looked like a big holed brilopad, the best part was he used it over and over, has any one herd of this ??will one of those big holed stanless steal brilopads work?? what alternatives to tissue wadding are best, also that can be used over and over?? thanks
 

BlueNinja

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Nomex sheet


Kevlar sheet


CHore Boy (scrubbing pad, make sure it's stainless steel) in the motor mount


A baffle incorporated into the motor mount, e.g. plug off the top of the MMT, then drill a few holes through 3 or 4 centering rings, poke a couple of holes in the MMT higher than any motor you want to use, and place the CRs an inch or so apart in the remaining length of the MMT. Blocks the burning particles of ejection but lets the gas pass.
 

jflis

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A baffle may be a good choice for you.

FlisKits baffle kits will be coming out soon (suitable for BT-50, 55, 60, & 70 based models).

You can read about them more in this thread

As for a status, the materials have been ordered and are expected next week. The documentation (instructions) are complete and have been ordered and should be in early next week. I would expect to have these in inventory by November 16th.

jim
 

DynaSoar

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Originally posted by william
I am looking for somthing outher then tissue wadding, last weekend after i melted my streamers on my comanche, somone showed me that thay used ,well it looked like a big holed brilopad, the best part was he used it over and over, has any one herd of this ??will one of those big holed stanless steal brilopads work?? what alternatives to tissue wadding are best, also that can be used over and over?? thanks
Most common is cellulose insulation, known as "dog barf". It's shreaded (almost powdered) newspaper treated with fire retardant. You can get a bale (literally) of it at home improvement places for about $8. That will last you about 10 years. I'm not kidding.

I've been testing and using metal scrubbing pads. The steel ones can burn through unless they are very coarse. They won't burn, like steel wool will, but they will decompose to white dusty stuff and come part. While doing so, over the span of many launches, they work fine.

There are copper coated ones that cost the same (about $2 for two). These resist burning better. I'm using these in many birds. Half a pad in a 24mm, a whole one ion a 29mm and 1.5 pads in a 38mm. I leave them in the motor tube and just check them to see if they need replaced when prepping. Using and replacing them will cost more than dog barf or most any other wadding, but it's nice to know there's an alternative that you don't need to worry about forgetting to put in the rocket.

Do NOT use common fine steel wool scrubbers like Brillo pads. They burn, as in catch fire and have flames. Bad for rockets.

Larger rockets sometimes use a small sheet of nomex, kevlar or fiberglass cloth slid over and down the shock cord to protect the chute, by itself or with other means. I use this along with the metal baffles. It's hard to do in smaller tubes, and can get fouled with the chute in such a small space if you're not careful. But it's another more or less permanent protection.

Some people actually build rockets with baffling tubes inside, designed more or less like a muffler. That cools the ejection and keeps particles from flying up into the chute. I've never tried this. But this is something you need to build in, not something you can add to a built rocket.

You can make wadding by soaking a roll of toilet paper or paper towels in boric acid and borax solution and letting it dry completely. But with the cost of cellulose insulation so low for so much, that only makes sense if you want to do it just to do it. Same with the scrubbing pads for that matter. Get several rocketers to go in on a bale of dog barf and you'll each get years worth of wadding for a buck or two.
 

DynaSoar

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Originally posted by jflis
A baffle may be a good choice for you.

FlisKits baffle kits will be coming out soon (suitable for BT-50, 55, 60, & 70 based models).

Jim, will these be for building in, or can they be retro-fit?
 

GL-P

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I love Nomex!!!

Nomex is great stuff! I got it free from a vendor for being nice cuz my order was late. I cuts down on the tube need for a recovery compartment. I had an F motor crack the forward closure and spew a little hot AP on my airframe. The nomex was in beautiful shape with only a few very little scorch marks. It saved my chute which was an Estes chute until it got torn apart by the high speed ejection.

Great stuff!!! Completely reusable!!!

Greg
 

jflis

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Originally posted by DynaSoar
Jim, will these be for building in, or can they be retro-fit?
Both. In a retro-fit situation, you simply have to be sure that you completely remove the old recovery device (shock cord and mount) and clean the tube as best you can. You then slide the baffle down deep enough to leave room to pack your chute. Use a long stick to apply a glue filet along the top ridge and you're all set :)

jim
 

JRThro

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Originally posted by jflis
Both. In a retro-fit situation, you simply have to be sure that you completely remove the old recovery device (shock cord and mount) and clean the tube as best you can. You then slide the baffle down deep enough to leave room to pack your chute. Use a long stick to apply a glue filet along the top ridge and you're all set :)

jim
And I've actually gotten as far as installing the motor mount in my downscale DG&A Armageddon (18" BT-50 tube, 18 mm motor), so the next thing should be installing the FlisKits baffle. I'm thinking about 6" from the front end of the body tube should do it. I really want to fly this rocket at the 2004 Crossroads of Rocketry in Hearne, TX, next Saturday.
 

jflis

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Be sure to keep us posted on how it works for you! :)

jim
 

JRThro

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I will, assuming I get the rocket built in time.
 

Mad Rocketeer

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I want to try everything at least once. My first stager was an old Centauri Long Tom, which was also my only baffle system to date. They called theirs the passport system, and it worked like a champ. I'll be rolling my own and probably trying Jim's (FlisKits) too, as everything else he's offered has looked really good to me.

Based on advice here, I bought a bale of the loose cellulose ("dog barf") attic insulation early this year. It's everything that's been said here about it. It's flame resistant in the same way as the wadding sheets, and it's compressed in the bale. I have it in the attic, and I fill a couple of large Zip-Loc bags every once in a while. I've flown several times so far, given away about 3 times as much as I've used, and the bale is hardly touched, all for the price of 2 or 3 of those little Estes packets.

"Dog Barf" has another nice side effect too. It helps in seeing the ejection at altitude. The stuff spews out in a little cloud. If tracking powder is mixed in, the barf takes on some of the color (though with gray mixed in), and the powder doesn't get all over everything quite as much as usual.

In another thread, we got quite creative in wadding ideas. Search on "Jell-O". :D I had the idea of using thick Jell-O (think Jigglers) as wadding. It would need to be used in a coated or plastic body tube though. Plastic is probably best, as it can just be rinsed if it gets sticky. Mix the Jell-O powder with less than the specified water so it's thick and rubbery, let it set in a body tube sized mold (Possibly a peice of tubing with plastic wrap spray glued to the inside surface), keep it cold until launch time, and use a slug of Jell-O as wadding. It is flameproof and biodegradable. Heck, it'll melt on its own. If a critter eats it, no problem. I've never tried it, so I can't certify that it'll quench all the sparks as it blows out or blows through, but I think it has potential. Also, it will tend to be heavy, possibly needing nose weight for stability, but that's offset by the coolness factor, IMHO. It could be placed near the center of gravity in most rockets, but it might need a centering ring or some such to sit on so it doesn't shift backward at launch. It might even disintegrate on launch, so proceed with great caution the first few times if you try it. The idea may well be worth what you paid for it (i.e. nothing), so if you do it, do so at your own risk.

Use your imagination! Try everything! Have fun! Report back here what you discover! Never neglect the safety codes though. They protect rockteers, bystanders, equipment, and the hobby.
 

rabidsheeep

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lettuce... for low power its awesome and environmentally friendly (probably not too reccomended on the forums)

dog barf is good, but i tend to not use enough on larger diameter rockets

ive also used those kitchen mit things (test them with a lighter beforehand)
 

troutfinder293

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Jim are the dics on the baffles made out of fiber board or hard cord stock or something? Im planing to buy a couple of them to try out when yall put them on the web site. And how will the CG be on the rocket, any changes on that? Im new to this. Can you give me some info on this. If you can?
 

teflonrocketry1

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For permanent wadding I use a body tube wide pompom made from Teflon pipe thread sealant tape. If you make the recovery device from this same material (expanded PTFE) you don't even need to use wadding! That's why they call me Teflonrocketry1!

Bruce S. Levison, NAR #69055
 

William

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well I want to thank every one that gave there 2cents, I know now that I am going to try them all, and i mean it. baffeling,dog barf, also nomex, I will have to think about the lettuce.:D I really love this forum,you ask the question and someone will answer. thanks again.
 

jflis

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Originally posted by william
I really love this forum,you ask the question and someone will answer. thanks again.
hehehe... heck, ask a question here and dern near *everyone* answers! LOL

I love it here! :)
 

JRThro

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Micromeister

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Originally posted by teflonrocketry1
For permanent wadding I use a body tube wide pompom made from Teflon pipe thread sealant tape. If you make the recovery device from this same material (expanded PTFE) you don't even need to use wadding! That's why they call me Teflonrocketry1!

Bruce S. Levison, NAR #69055
I'm with Bruce:
Since discovering Teflon plumbers tape pom-poms I've stopped using tissue and dog barf almost completely. the only place I still use wadding is in competition models. BT-80 and BT-101 size models used multi ball pom-poms or nomex sheets. Which ever I'm stopped cooking my Chutes and the 2" wide heavy weight mil spec stuff makes great streamers/wadding by itself.:D
 

William

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UPDATE . I have now used bog barf and it worked very well not a problem at all, also at 7.45$ for a hole bail at lows, it's hard to beat that. but now how exatly do you make these pom-poms out of teflon tape, that also sound like a great idea. THANKS
 

r1dermon

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i had one bad happening with cellulose. ended up with 2 burned holes in my chute. but i think the pack was way tight, because the BT was crimped and almost zippered at the top and i also didnt see the chute for say 12 seconds after burnout, and thats on a 7 second delay.
 

edwardw

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I use a healthy dose of dog barf and a chute protector made of ironing board fabric. The fabric is $6 a yard usually. That is for a piece 48" x 36". On the Delta II project all the chutes were in fine condition with the chute protectors.


Edward
 

Micromeister

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I thought I had a photo of the 3 Pom-pom set I use in one of my BT-80 body Upscales. Apparently I've lost or misfiled that photo. Over the weekend I made a new BT-20/50 - 30 strip 1/2" x 12" plain old white plumbers tape pom-pom 'how-to" pic page. If 3/4" teflon tape is used one will fill up to a BT-60 very nicely, I use 2 in my Super Vega just to be sure;) BT-70 & BT-80 3 work just fine.
Hope this helps.
 

Mad Rocketeer

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Teflon pom-poms. What a slick idea! [Sorry. Couldn't resist.] :D I have a bale of the dog barf, and I want to build some rockets with baffles and even play with the heavy scrub pads, but this teflon idea sounds really good. I'll have to see if I can blow up the picture of instructions you posted. How about a text description of the construction method, dimensions, size of finished product, tube sizes handled by given pom-pom sizes and/or quantity, prefered way to attach and use them, etc., ad nauseum. How heat resistant is the teflon tape? Does it require occasional replacement? How good is it about sliding out vs. getting snagged? Educate us! ;)
 

Micromeister

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Originally posted by Mad Rocketeer
Teflon pom-poms. What a slick idea! [Sorry. Couldn't resist.] :D I have a bale of the dog barf, and I want to build some rockets with baffles and even play with the heavy scrub pads, but this teflon idea sounds really good. I'll have to see if I can blow up the picture of instructions you posted. How about a text description of the construction method, dimensions, size of finished product, tube sizes handled by given pom-pom sizes and/or quantity, prefered way to attach and use them, etc., ad nauseum. How heat resistant is the teflon tape? Does it require occasional replacement? How good is it about sliding out vs. getting snagged? Educate us! ;)
Teflon pom-pom's last a very long while, I've been using the same 2 in my Super Vega for about 8 years. Some of the edges occasionally get charred but this usually wipes off with a paper towel. Heat seems to have little effect on the Teflon, I think more damage it done breaking off strands with inserting than by the ejection charge. Like you said Pom-poms are very slick, I've never had a pom-pom jam in the body like I have with tissue wadding. I like to baby powder the pom-poms before storing them in the model between flights. That's right I store them IN the models over extended periods. Flight prep then consists of removing the chute and pom-poms, shake them out to full volumn than reinsert in the model. repack and install the chute, pop in a motor and your on your way.
Pom-pom size will differ with the width of tape used, its thickness (standard plumbers tape or military grade colored tapes) and number of strands combined.
Generally I like the plain old white teflon plumbers tape for Pom-Poms it compacks better then the thicker military grade tape. All pom-poms I make start with a 12" length of 70 to 130 lb kevlar line and 20 to 40 - 12 inch long strips of 1/2" or 3/4" white teflon tape. Tubes 10.5mm and BT-5 can use pom-poms with 20 strands, BT-20 to BT-55 take 30 strands and BT-60 up will use 30 to 40 strands of 3/4" wide and two or three pom-poms. I've tried 4 pom-poms of 40 1" red military grade Teflon in a 4" BT-101 5 12-d Cluster but have only flown it once with this wadding. I got a little blackening on one spot of the 36" nylon Hemi chute but NO real damage. I just haven't been flying as many LMR's, in the past couple years so I'd say more flight tests need to be flown before I'd say pom-poms will work in model bodies over BT-80;)

Construction couldn't be simplier. I start by covering the table top or mounting board with a piece of wax paper. This will help keep the babypowder mess to a minimum. Lay your 12" kevlar string in a central convenient position. I place the kevlar North/south. Either percut or cut and lay 10 - 12 inch strips of Teflon tape in a crisscross pattern trying to keep them crossing at about the centerline of the string. Talc babypowder the first layer, repeat with layers 2,3 and possibly 4 if building a large model Pom-pom. Carefully tie a double overhand knot in the center of the teflon stack with the Kevlar. pick the finished pom-pom up and shack out the excess powder in a trashcan. I store new pom-poms in sandwitch size zip-lock bags until ready for use.
Attachment is also very easy. Tie a butterfly knot a foot or so below the Parachute attachment point on your shockcord or Shockline. Tie the loose ends of the pom-pom kevlar line to the butterfly loop.
Powder and shake out then gently stuff the pom-pom(s) into the body tube forming a 3 or 4 inch mass of teflon. I usually then load the shock line directly on top of the teflon and push this whole works down into the model body with the folded chute. install the nosecone and we're ready to fly.

Bruce (Teflonrocketry1) have you done anything with pom-poms in the larger body diameters or stick with mostly teflon PTFE sheet type chute protectors?
Hope this helps.
 

Reed Goodwin

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I had success using fiberglass insulation on my Estes Banshee, though I don't know how well it would work for larger rockets. The only problem is that it's a bad idea to handle it with bare hands:D
Reed
 

Stymye

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fiberglass works but unfortunately it's not biodegradable.
 

BobH48

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Way back in ancient times, I had a problem with weak ejection charges popping the nose cone on my Big Bertha but not having enough power to push the wadding and parachute out.

To fix this, I glued a CR2060 in the tube about 8" from the front to keep the wadding and chute near the nose. Problem solved.

A side benefit of this was the centering ring acted like a partial baffle with only the center of the wadding getting the hot gas and burning particles. I have not had a burnt parachute or shock cord on this rocket since I installed the centering ring. I replaced the shock cord this summer because it was old, not because it was burnt. This is my 1967 vintage Big Bertha that I still fly on occasion.
 

Mad Rocketeer

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Excellent Instructions! I asked for a lot of detail and got even more than I asked for. Too cool. I gotta try this too. Thanks! :cool:
 
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